In the extremely unlikely event...

[SaxonPig]

That one is in the middle of an ISIS terror attack, is there any evidence that the terrorists ever wear body armor? I ask because I'm thinking of changing my carry ammo to something that can defeat lightweight body armor in case I have to engage a target so equipped. I have never heard or read of them wearing vests, but they are very military in nature, so I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone know anything?

[kilimanjaro]

You're far more likely to use your carry ammo to take out an American thug than a Muslim terrorist. I would not load up with penetrating ammo, it's just increasing the danger to bystanders.

Contrary to popular belief, someone hit while wearing body armor is going to be out of action for a while.

[rickyrick]

Yeah is gonna hurt. I'd think, I've never experienced it.

[manta49]

The attackers in Paris were wearing suicide belts, i am not sure using penetrating ammo would help.

Old drill, 2to the chest, 1 to the head.

All to head would be a better idea.

[Retired45]

Old drill, 2to the chest, 1 to the head.

[AK103K]

Contrary to popular belief, someone hit while wearing body armor is going to be out of action for a while.

Tell that to Rick Davis, owner of Second Chance vests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIhyETXW1u0

He used to do the above, all the time. In one case, he was wearing a vest developed for the Coast Guard that was a combination of life jacket and bullet proof vest rated for 7.62x51. His dad shot him with a rifle in that caliber, point blank, on the deck of a boat, and he went into the water right after, showing no ill effects what so ever.

They (Second Chance) used to give away an 8 hour VHS tape called "Second Chance vs the Cop Killers" (I have a copy), that has all sorts of cool stuff on it, including "saves" of numerous police officers who were shot wearing their vests, most of which involved immediate responses by the cops after being shot. Great tape if you can find one.

Old drill, 2to the chest, 1 to the head.

Ive pretty much have stopped doing the old "Mozambique" thing, and at anything around 7-5 yards or so and in, just go directly for the head. Its an easy enough target, even while moving and not using the sights. If there was even a thought the target might be wearing a vest, why would you waste ammo on anything but a head shot?

[wogpotter]

Not that I've heard of. Unlike most they actually want to die in the act.

[rickyrick]

If they do wear body armor, either terrorist or crazy mass shooter, it's only to prolong the attack... I agree that they fully intend to die during the attack

[Skans]

Like others have said, unless he is wearing steel plates, the body armor isn't going to protect him from the blunt trauma of 9mm+p, .40 or .45+P. So, 2 to the body and 1 to the head is still my approach. In a high stress situation, the body is an easier target.

But, if you are really concerned about this, carry a Heizer 5.56 with one steel-core cartridge as a back-up.

[Tucker 1371]

You're gonna have to carry something like a S&W .460 XVR to defeat level IIIA armor. If you could find the FN SS190 armor piercing ammo for a FiveSeven pistol that wouldn't be a bad way to go. Other than that, carry spare mags for your EDC and always have a plan to GTFO should the place you happen to be standing become a kill zone. Shooting can't be the only component of you SHTF plan.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IIRC, armor piercing rounds for handguns are illegal.

As far as does this happen and will a vest hit take you out by impact - check out the Tyler TX courthouse. The BG had a vest and took a hit from civilian who was trying to save the day. The civilian hit him and then did an unwise action and left cover. He was killed by the BG, who obviously was in the fight.

The North Hollywood shootout - another armor incident.

[Kosh75287]

If there was even a thought the target might be wearing a vest, why would you waste ammo on anything but a head shot?

Every situation is different, but how about: "To addle the attacker with torso hits long enough to make a more precise headshot" ?

Let's also remember that human spleens have been ruptured by errant racquetballs. Blunt trauma from a major caliber pistol round (or a baton, or a PR-24, or a baseball bat, or a 2x4) might very well have the same effect.

There's also no accounting for dumb luck, and fortune favors the prepared mind.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The North Hollywood shooters were hit myriad times with handgun rounds and stayed in the fight.

I know saying that folks should train offends some but practicing a failure to stop drill is worth it.

Shoooting a rock at the ranch and being trained by "Daddy" may not be sufficient if you are serious.

[JERRYS.]

if and when hits COM don't do it, failure drill should be instinctive. even a shot to the leg or arm can do wonders...

[James K]

"The attackers in Paris were wearing suicide belts, i am not sure using penetrating ammo would help."

Depending on the explosive, a hit on a suicide vest would more likely result in what the old computer manuals used to call "unpredictable results", like a very loud noise and bad results for anyone in the vicinity.

Jim

[AK103K]

People have taken multiple and lethal hits without vests, and continued to return fire, often without the knowledge they were even hit at all. What makes you think that hits to a vest, are going to cause someone hit, to cease any sooner? Especially since youre not getting any penetration into the vitals.

There is one true "kill switch" on the human body. It resides at the base of the skull, along a plane that bisects the little bump under your nose, and its generally accepted, that a hit anywhere in that triangle formed by the eyes down to that point, will accomplish the same result. As I said, if youre close, why bother with a body shot, if you can solve the problem much quicker, by unloading into the head.

If you think its to difficult, grab a couple of airsoft guns and a buddy, and give it a try. I think youll be surprised at how easy it is to make those shots at reasonably close ranges, even on moving targets while you yourself are moving, and even without sights. (Of course, there is the assumption that you normally practice somewhat realistically here, and hopefully, if and when you really need the skills, its not your first experience at drawing, moving and shooting while you go.)

One other thought here, since you often hear how a 5 shot revolver is all you need to solve most problems. How many rounds do you waste shooting COM with one, until it clicks (and that could very likely be literal) that youre not getting the results you were expecting, and you need to change things up?

[OldMarksman]

Posted by kilimanjaro:

Contrary to popular belief, someone hit while wearing body armor is going to be out of action for a while.

Where did you get that idea?

[BlueTrain]

It depends on the caliber and on the armor. It's like the difference between chain mail and plate armor. Chain mail armor was supposedly no protection against an impact weapon (mace or club) but it was still useful. A heavy enough cartridge would result in a serious blow to an individual, even if it didn't penetrate. That's when "knockdown power" begins to have real meaning. Of course, a lot depends on the individual who was hit, too. Most of us are not used to receiving a blow like that.

[T. O'Heir]

"...old computer manuals used to call "unpredictable results"..." That's what programmers still call their mistakes. We techies have another name for it. Starts with an 'F' and ends with 'programmers'. snicker.
Chain mail was protection against cuts and slashes. Did squat against blunt instruments. Doesn't do anything to prevent broken bones from getting whacked with a sword either. Said broken bones usually being fatal from infection. Plate was developed primarily to defeat arrows, not swords or impact weapons.
In any case, if you find yourself in the middle of an ISIS terror attack armed only with a handgun, of any kind, the terr wearing body armour or not will be the least of your problems. You'll be facing a loonie carrying a rifle. Likely an AK. Suggest you find cover.

[chimo]

While normally, taking a hit in your body armor is going to hurt like hell and probably at least stop you temporarily, when the adrenaline is flowing, all bets are off...so don't bet your life on the threat ending or even slowing down if you put a couple into the plates.

Shooting for the biggest target is obviously the best choice under stress, but if you are trained and train regularly, you should probably assume the possibility that any opponent might be wearing body armor and adjust your training accordingly for follow-up shots to vulnerable areas.

[Erno86]

Wearing a AK-47 front chest rig, might give the Daesh a false sense of confidence...but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be wearing some kind of soft body armor underneath it.

[silverbullet6oh]

JERRYS. said:

if and when hits COM don't do it, failure drill should be instinctive. even a shot to the leg or arm can do wonders...

Great advice
------------------------------------------
kilimanjaro said:

Contrary to popular belief, someone hit while wearing body armor is going to be out of action for a while.

OldMarksman replied:

Where did you get that idea?

With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but only temporarily, as in less than a minute. Then I would imagine they would be back in the action or retreating.

[manta49]

With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but only temporarily, as in less than a minute. Then I would imagine they would be back in the action or retreating.

seriously.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by chimo:

While normally, taking a hit in your body armor is going to hurt like hell and probably at least stop you temporarily, ...

Posted by silverbullet6oh:

With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but ....

Look: that "knock down power" will entail no more momentum than the recoil of the firearm that fired the projectile. It will not have "knocked the wind out of " the shooter, nor will it do so to the shootee. That's extremely basic physics--Newton's third law of motion.

There is an old law enforcement training video that takes apart a number of myths. In one demonstration, a man shoots a 7.62 FAL rifle point-blank at a man wearing body armor. It doesn't hurt the shooter, and it doesn't hurt the man with the armor.

[fastbolt]

In the extremely unlikely event...
That one is in the middle of an ISIS terror attack, is there any evidence that the terrorists ever wear body armor? I ask because I'm thinking of changing my carry ammo to something that can defeat lightweight body armor in case I have to engage a target so equipped. I have never heard or read of them wearing vests, but they are very military in nature, so I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone know anything?

Not something that's going to make me lose any sleep. I'll continue to carry the same types of ammunition in my retirement weapons.

Rather than think some theoretical "AP capability" of my handgun ammo choices would be in any way needed, I'd rather devote time to working on my skillset, awareness and equipment (guns & holsters) inspections and maintenance. Those things don't come out of a box and take some continued attention and work, granted.

I'll also continue to keep in mind that not being mistaken as a criminal/terrorist by responding LE, or even another lawfully armed citizen, is likely to be VERY beneficial in such a situation.