303 Brit 185 gr. load?

CastAmerican · November 6, 2018, 12:59 PM

I just started casting for my Lee Enfield, 303 British, but can't find any load data using 185 gr. bullets. I would like to use IMR 4064 since that is what I already have on hand. Any advice for staring loads would be great. Thanks.

T. O'Heir · November 6, 2018, 01:15 PM

Use 180 grain cast data. The 5 grains won't matter.
Go here for tested 180 grain cast data. I'd be reducing by 10% for a start load.
http://www.303british.com/id16.html

**Unclenick** · November 6, 2018, 01:33 PM

Cast bullet pressures and velocities are usually lower than for jacketed bullets. A powder like 4064 burns too slowly for good behavior at low pressures, so unless you load your cast bullets to jacketed bullet pressures, it is a recipe for erratic velocity, great quantities of unburned powder and also bullet hesitation pressure spikes further down the barrel, which can ring it.

QuickLOAD suggests reducing 180 grain bullet charges by 1% for the 185 grain bullet at the same seating depth. It's not a lot of difference. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has 6 loads for a 180 grain Saeco #305 bullet on page 172 using Unique, 2400, SR-4759 (which it highlights as the best accuracy powder they found), IMR-4227, Accurate 5744, and IMR-4198, which is the slowest powder they list for cast bullet loads in this.

The board's policy on posting copyrighted material doesn't allow an image from the book to be posted, so I will just say the SR-4759 loads range from 18.0 to 26.0 grains. The 5744 produces the highest velocity (2147 fps from a 25½" barrel on a production Enfield #1 Mk III, and ranges from 21.0 grains to 29.5 grains in their gun. Reduced by 1%, that last load upper limit drops to 29.2 grains. The SR-4759 maximum load drops to 25.7 grains. So, about 0.3 grains down in all cases.

Another thing to try is Hodgdon Trail Boss. Any load filling the space under the bullet from between 70% and 100% should be safe if you are happy with around 1500-1600 fps.

CastAmerican · November 6, 2018, 01:43 PM

So Unique would be a better powder to use than 4064? Because I have some of that around.

Dufus · November 6, 2018, 01:55 PM

Red Dot will work in it too. Just saying.

**Unclenick** · November 6, 2018, 03:56 PM

Dufus,

It will, but he's looking for published load data. If you have some for Red Dot with his bullet, please post it and name the source.

CastAmerican,

The Lyman data for a 180-grain bullet is 13.5 to 16.0 grains of Unique. Because this is a faster powder than the other two I listed and doesn't fill the case well, there is less adjustment to make for the extra 5 grains of bullet weight. Only about 0.1 grains less, which is smaller than your powder measure will vary the charge from round to round.

CastAmerican · November 6, 2018, 06:51 PM

And that's for Unique?

Dufus · November 6, 2018, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Unclenick wrote: Dufus,

It will, but he's looking for published load data. If you have some for Red Dot with his bullet, please post it and name the source.

CastAmerican,

The Lyman data for a 180-grain bullet is 13.5 to 16.0 grains. Because this is a faster powder than the other two I listed and doesn't fill the case well, there is less adjustment to make for the extra 5 grains of bullet weight. Only about 0.1 grains less, which is smaller than your powder measure will vary the charge from round to round.

As requested, this article is from C. E. "Ed" Harris, the man that Ed's Red is named after.

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...ns-of-red-dot/

I hope this is authoritative enough to meet the qualifications.

As an aside, folks can easily look this stuff up for themselves if they show a little initiative If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I am right, nobody gives a damn in the first place.

**44 AMP** · November 6, 2018, 10:28 PM

For information only:
RCBS Cast Bullet Manual number 1
(first printing Dec 1986)

page 82

.303 British 30-180-FN
weight 187gr
dia: .308
lube:rifle

H380
33.0gr 1818fps
35.0gr 1945fps

IMR 4320
30.0gr 1893fps
32.0gr 2011fps

IMR 4198
23.0gr 1756fps
25.0gr 1893fps

Unique
12.0gr 1378fps
14.0gr 1501fps

Note how the max charge for Unique is small and velocity max is lowest of those listed. Unique in the .303 (and other rifle cases of similar size) is for "gallery" loads, plinking and small game. You will not get "rifle" velocities at any safe pressure with Unique in this case, it is simply too fast a burn rate powder for that.

Hope this helps..

Dufus · November 7, 2018, 02:10 PM

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has Unique loads that overlap the loads posted by 44 AMP.

The max velocity listed is 1781 fps with 180 gr bullet.

**Unclenick** · November 7, 2018, 02:25 PM

CastAmerican,

Yes. Unique. Sorry. I should have been explicit and have gone back and fixed the post. The Lyman data has a wider span than the RCBS data, but the difference will be the guns they used or that RCBS used a lead and tin alloy that doesn't like to be driven quite as hard as Lyman's lead, tin, and antimony alloy.

**44 AMP** · November 7, 2018, 05:08 PM

Further information in the RCBS book (and in a different place than the loading data) said all their bullets were 1-10 tin to lead, that velocities above 2000fps were not sought. And that "the lower charges with each powder are not intended to show a lower limit, but to give the handloader an idea of what to expect as charges are reduced so that he can make an educated estimate of the results he can expect."

The Lyman bullets are #2 Alloy, which is 90 lead, 5 tin, 5 antimony.

This will make a difference in their data...

CastAmerican · November 7, 2018, 08:54 PM

Thanks for all of the info guys. I plan to shoot my first cast 303 with Unique sometime this week.

November 6, 2018, 03:56 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Dufus, It will, but he's looking for published load data. If you have some for Red Dot with his bullet, please post it and name the source. CastAmerican, The Lyman data for a 180-grain bullet is 13.5 to 16.0 grains of Unique. Because this is a faster powder than the other two I listed and doesn't fill the case well, there is less adjustment to make for the extra 5 grains of bullet weight. Only about 0.1 grains less, which is smaller than your powder measure will vary the charge from round to round. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 6, 2018, 10:28 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	For information only: RCBS Cast Bullet Manual number 1 (first printing Dec 1986) page 82 .303 British 30-180-FN weight 187gr dia: .308 lube:rifle H380 33.0gr 1818fps 35.0gr 1945fps IMR 4320 30.0gr 1893fps 32.0gr 2011fps IMR 4198 23.0gr 1756fps 25.0gr 1893fps Unique 12.0gr 1378fps 14.0gr 1501fps Note how the max charge for Unique is small and velocity max is lowest of those listed. Unique in the .303 (and other rifle cases of similar size) is for "gallery" loads, plinking and small game. You will not get "rifle" velocities at any safe pressure with Unique in this case, it is simply too fast a burn rate powder for that. Hope this helps.. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 7, 2018, 02:25 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	CastAmerican, Yes. Unique. Sorry. I should have been explicit and have gone back and fixed the post. The Lyman data has a wider span than the RCBS data, but the difference will be the guns they used or that RCBS used a lead and tin alloy that doesn't like to be driven quite as hard as Lyman's lead, tin, and antimony alloy. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 7, 2018, 05:08 PM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Further information in the RCBS book (and in a different place than the loading data) said all their bullets were 1-10 tin to lead, that velocities above 2000fps were not sought. And that "the lower charges with each powder are not intended to show a lower limit, but to give the handloader an idea of what to expect as charges are reduced so that he can make an educated estimate of the results he can expect." The Lyman bullets are #2 Alloy, which is 90 lead, 5 tin, 5 antimony. This will make a difference in their data... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 6, 2018, 12:59 PM	#1
CastAmerican Member Join Date: August 31, 2018 Posts: 24	303 Brit 185 gr. load? I just started casting for my Lee Enfield, 303 British, but can't find any load data using 185 gr. bullets. I would like to use IMR 4064 since that is what I already have on hand. Any advice for staring loads would be great. Thanks.

November 6, 2018, 01:15 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Use 180 grain cast data. The 5 grains won't matter. Go here for tested 180 grain cast data. I'd be reducing by 10% for a start load. http://www.303british.com/id16.html __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 6, 2018, 01:33 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Cast bullet pressures and velocities are usually lower than for jacketed bullets. A powder like 4064 burns too slowly for good behavior at low pressures, so unless you load your cast bullets to jacketed bullet pressures, it is a recipe for erratic velocity, great quantities of unburned powder and also bullet hesitation pressure spikes further down the barrel, which can ring it. QuickLOAD suggests reducing 180 grain bullet charges by 1% for the 185 grain bullet at the same seating depth. It's not a lot of difference. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has 6 loads for a 180 grain Saeco #305 bullet on page 172 using Unique, 2400, SR-4759 (which it highlights as the best accuracy powder they found), IMR-4227, Accurate 5744, and IMR-4198, which is the slowest powder they list for cast bullet loads in this. The board's policy on posting copyrighted material doesn't allow an image from the book to be posted, so I will just say the SR-4759 loads range from 18.0 to 26.0 grains. The 5744 produces the highest velocity (2147 fps from a 25½" barrel on a production Enfield #1 Mk III, and ranges from 21.0 grains to 29.5 grains in their gun. Reduced by 1%, that last load upper limit drops to 29.2 grains. The SR-4759 maximum load drops to 25.7 grains. So, about 0.3 grains down in all cases. Another thing to try is Hodgdon Trail Boss. Any load filling the space under the bullet from between 70% and 100% should be safe if you are happy with around 1500-1600 fps. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 6, 2018, 01:43 PM	#4
CastAmerican Member Join Date: August 31, 2018 Posts: 24	So Unique would be a better powder to use than 4064? Because I have some of that around.

November 6, 2018, 01:55 PM	#5
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	Red Dot will work in it too. Just saying.

November 6, 2018, 06:51 PM	#7
CastAmerican Member Join Date: August 31, 2018 Posts: 24	And that's for Unique?

November 7, 2018, 02:10 PM	#10
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has Unique loads that overlap the loads posted by 44 AMP. The max velocity listed is 1781 fps with 180 gr bullet.

November 7, 2018, 08:54 PM	#13
CastAmerican Member Join Date: August 31, 2018 Posts: 24	Thanks for all of the info guys. I plan to shoot my first cast 303 with Unique sometime this week.