12 ga shot test video

[Green Lantern]

Found this interesting but it would be nice to see at a longer distance.

I think he says that the shot distance is room distance of 12 feet.
Home defense penetration of walls using different shot sizes.

https://youtu.be/C29mEJFFIvo

[TXAZ]

Pretty much verified that #6-8 bird shot is ideal for apartments and homes with other occupants you don’t want to hit as collateral damage.
But he makes a good point as to starting with birdshot as the first round then working up to buck or slugs with following rounds if required.

[FITASC]

If one is going to use birdshot, then go big with #2 or large steel

[Rob228]

Rule #5, be aware of your target and what lies behind it.

[ShootistPRS]

There is a lot of good information so far. Rob's comment is true regardless of what you use.
I proved this to myself back in the early 80s using a handloaded 1400 fps load of birdshot.
Yes it will penetrate to the vitals and do a lot of damage. It will not go through an interior wall and an exterior wall if you miss.
The psychology of it is that the person you shoot will feel this shot hit more than a slug and the blast of the shotgun is an effective announcement. The impact is 547 grains at just under 1400 fps produces 2381 foot pounds of energy. It hits with 109 pound feet of momentum. Even a 200 pound man is going to recoil from that hit. A hit to the chest will penetrate to the heart and do a lot of damage but the physical trauma is more than you can deliver with any pistol.

[FITASC]

Sorry, your precepts are incorrect because you are treating the shot as a solid and it is not. Take a brick and an equal amount of sand and have someone throw both of you as hard as they can - which causes more damage, the solid brick or the equal amount of sand?

[ShootistPRS]

FITASC,
At 12 feet, from a shotgun, the difference between a 1 once slug and 1- 1/4 ounce of shot is that the shot expands as it penetrates and the slug goes through very quickly. Both are capable of killing but the shot will actually transfer all its energy and momentum on the target. The shot also produces a larger permanent wound than the slug.
A better video of the effect of shot can be found HERE

[FITASC]

Disagree - the energy from all of those pellets does NOT equal the energy from a solid slug - never has, never will

[mehavey]

energy from all of those pellets does NOT equal the energy from a solid slug

E = ½MV^2 = ½MV^2 = ½MV^2 = ½MV^2
(regardless of whether M is one item or the sum of many items)

[K_Mac]

Yes, you will get a nasty looking wound using birdshot. Whether you get enough penetration to immediately incapacitate is the issue. I do not know any credible professionals that recommend anything smaller than #4 buckshot for personal protection.

[smee78]

I believe this was a good example of what people should expect when using different loads in a shotgun for home defense. It gives you something to think about, thanks for sharing.

[dreaming]

i am no engineer, but believe that FITASC is correct in that the damage done by the same total mass of pellets is less than the same mass in a solid round. Simply put, the same weight of shot travelling in a column is simply not as concentrated as the same weight concentrated into a single projectile. I suppose we are talking density. Also, the pellets impact close to but not quite simultaneously, which results in a liquid effect. I short, the sum of the pellets does not equal the single slug and the sum of more smaller pellets does not equal the damage done by fewer but heavier larger pellets.

[mehavey]

E = E = E = E
The energy is the same.
The amount of damage from that energy dump is the same.

-- BUT --

In the case of 1oz of birdshot that has begun to spread, the energy dump is immediate and at a lower depth/across a wider surface

The 1oz slug distributes it's energy dump through a deeper penetration wound, and in a narrower channel

It's a Systems problem.
How you decide to engineer the energy dump depends on you.

[ShootistPRS]

This talk about theory is all fine but the tests I have done and the videos that I have seen are pretty convincing. The 1-1/4 ounce of #8 shot at 1400 fps will easily penetrate through the heart and destroy it from a frontal shot at 12 feet.

HERE is a video that shows less powerful loads going through layers of fabric, a pork steak, pork ribs, a beef heart and the drywall behind the target. (look at 7 minutes on if you want to skip most of the preliminary wall tests.)

The results shown in that video are very close to the results that I got using 1-1/4 oz of #8 shot at 1400 fps from 12 feet. I got full penetration to 6 inches and pulverized the heart in the process. You have to aim a shotgun in order to hit a "kill zone" at these ranges just like a pistol or rifle. The advantage to the load I used is that it causes a much bigger wound and is stopped by an exterior wall even if you completely miss the target. That makes it safer than a magnum pistol or a rifle and it still does more damage to the target.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by ShootistPRS

This talk about theory is all fine but the tests I have done and the videos that I have seen are pretty convincing. The 1-1/4 ounce of #8 shot at 1400 fps will easily penetrate through the heart and destroy it from a frontal shot at 12 feet.

HERE is a video that shows less powerful loads going through layers of fabric, a pork steak, pork ribs, a beef heart and the drywall behind the target. (look at 7 minutes on if you want to skip most of the preliminary wall tests.)

The results shown in that video are very close to the results that I got using 1-1/4 oz of #8 shot at 1400 fps from 12 feet. I got full penetration to 6 inches and pulverized the heart in the process. You have to aim a shotgun in order to hit a "kill zone" at these ranges just like a pistol or rifle. The advantage to the load I used is that it causes a much bigger wound and is stopped by an exterior wall even if you completely miss the target. That makes it safer than a magnum pistol or a rifle and it still does more damage to the target.

What happens if you introduce factors like shooting through someone's arm that got in the way of the shot and heavy clothing?

[ShootistPRS]

Well, it will likely end the engagement. People usually lose the urge to fight when they see their body parts on the ground. If not there are seven more rounds where the first one came from.
Heavy clothing does little to slow the shot down. I have fired through two layers of denim and a piece of leather jacket without any difference in the end result.
Remember that at 12 feet the shot charge is just slightly larger than the bore of the shotgun. It really hasn't spread much at all.

[mehavey]

The 1-1/4 ounce of #8 shot at 1400 fps will easily penetrate
through the heart and destroy it from a frontal shot at 12 feet.

At 12 feet... it hasn't even started to spread -- acting for all intents as a monolithic/frangible Glaser slug

[K_Mac]

ShootistPRS what happens if the encounter is at 30' or 45' or 60'? Buckshot will stop an attacker at those distances. I would not bet my life on birdshot, even if loaded hot for the purpose.

[ShootistPRS]

I don't have those kinds of distances in my house, do you?
The videos and talk thus far has have been on home defense.
Outside I have my 357 but even then we are talking about defense. At 20 yards you might have a hard time showing your life was in danger.

[Bill DeShivs]

I have seen a 12 ga. load of #8 shot blow part of a man's right lung out.
I have also seen a load of birdshot almost remove a man's arm.
Both were at across the room distances.

[mehavey]

Both were at across the room distances.

Go measure the room.
My dining room is 4 yards lengthwise.
Living room corner-to-corner is only 6.

"Home" distances are short distances
You're dealing with a Glaser slug at that distance.
And you better have aimed... 'cuase you sure ain't dealing with a "scattergun" at all.

[wild cat mccane]

all being equal, it is not the same. Energy by mass yes, but there is more cross sectional density in shot than a slug-ie the shot has more surface. So what that energy does is totally different.

[ShootistPRS]

The fact is that it has been tested many times with repeatable results that show shot is effective in stopping a confrontation at household ranges. You can talk all about what you believe happens but the fact stands, it is effective.

[jmstr]

Take-aways:

If the distance is less than 6 yards [the length of the longest hall in my house], birdshot will work without as much fear of hitting my granddaughter through the wall, or my pets in another room.


If the distance is over 12 yards, then buckshot seems the best bet, as birdshot is spreading- and losing the impact it had.


From what I've read, any apartment dweller is best off when their neighbor uses birdshot for home defense- but someone living alone [or with a spouse in the same room] on some property where the next house is 100 yards away is just fine with buckshot.


It seems the concern is about what is the best blend of safety from over-penetration within a house vs straight stopping power.



Here is another thought- no matter what you think about buck vs bird shot, can we all agree that they are better at stopping than a .380 or smaller?

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by ShootistPRS

Well, it will likely end the engagement. People usually lose the urge to fight when they see their body parts on the ground. If not there are seven more rounds where the first one came from.
Heavy clothing does little to slow the shot down. I have fired through two layers of denim and a piece of leather jacket without any difference in the end result.
Remember that at 12 feet the shot charge is just slightly larger than the bore of the shotgun. It really hasn't spread much at all.

I wouldn't risk a psychological stop if I had better options open to me. And using birdshot also seems to rely on extremely close range (even by shotgun standards) and puts more of an emphasis on shot placement compared to buckshot. But hey, if you're comfortable using birdshot for home defense, then I hope it performs well for you.