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Old February 14, 2009, 02:15 PM   #1
Firepower!
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Squad formation question

Hello
I need some expert advice from fellow TFL members who have been marines or special services. In a sqaud of eight I have following weapons for my guards:
Mp5
Mp5 sd
M4a1
AkSU74
4 ak47s

I want to know good is this set up for a guard that moves with me in cars. What would you suggest different? Thanks.
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Old February 14, 2009, 02:24 PM   #2
B. Lahey
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You still haven't picked up that PK?

I'm no expert, but something belt-fed (PKM, M240, M2, etc...) for a tail-gunner in the last vehicle seems like it couldn't hurt.

Or would heavy weapons draw too much attention?
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Old February 14, 2009, 03:14 PM   #3
kraigwy
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How about getting a copy of FM 21-75, Individual Soldier and Patroling,

It will answer your questions.
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Old February 14, 2009, 03:26 PM   #4
Firepower!
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Lahey
PK is picked up but since its belt fed I cannot get license for it to take around with me. In Pakistan guns may not be open carry.
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Old February 25, 2009, 09:57 AM   #5
fal308
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Everything you have listed is for up close work. Do you have a need for anything heavier-hitting? Something to take out concealed targets at 100+ meters? Something like a Socom , HK51 or similar?
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Old February 25, 2009, 12:30 PM   #6
David Hineline
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I do not fit your criteria for a response but having a MP5SD I would not use a weapon that has the ballistic equal of a .380 ACP pistol. The SD is large and for taking out things in a stealth mannor. Not for defense, if you have need of a defensive weapon than your stealth is already blown.
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Old February 25, 2009, 04:44 PM   #7
Bartholomew Roberts
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What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD?

Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages.
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Old February 25, 2009, 04:45 PM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
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What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD?

Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages. (Also, neither Marine nor special service member).
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Old February 25, 2009, 05:52 PM   #9
PTK
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That you need that many armed men around, I do not envy your life, friend.
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Old February 25, 2009, 09:27 PM   #10
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Okay, we're dealing with a mounted patrol here, for simplicity's sake. I see a few issues here. First, the 21 foot rule for how close you let someone get to you on foot becomes a 100 meter rule when mounted. The MP5s won't have enough energy after traveling 100 meters to punch holes through laminated windshields or sheet metal. Get rid of those first.

Second, your AKSU-74 is shooting a 52 grain bullet that has an air pocket in the nose (if you're using surplus ammo) through an eight inch barrel. Lower velocity, lower penetration. Lose it.

Third, the limitations of the M4 with its shorter barrel and military ammo are legendary here on TFL, and I personally tried to trade in my M249 SAWs for M240Bs during my last Iraq tour due to the 5.56mm's limited effectiveness from a short barrel in a mounted role. Ditch the M4A1.

Now we have 4 AK-47s left. I'm assuming because you are using them in vehicles you got the folding stock, so good there. However, not enough energy for my taste to punch into an engine that well. So, if you have the cash, I'd trade in everything for eight FAL carbines with folding stocks. If not, I'd keep the AK-47s and get four FAL carbines to replace the other weapons. The 7.62x51mm will hit harder and pierce better than the 7.62x39mm. And always use armor-piercing ammunition in weapons used primarily around vehicles. It helps to cut through windshields and vehicle bodies.

And just because we're not Marines doesn't mean us Army guys don't know anything about weapons selection and patrolling.
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Last edited by IZinterrogator; February 25, 2009 at 09:38 PM.
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Old February 25, 2009, 10:48 PM   #11
2amencw
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patrol weapons

an autoloading 12 gauge with breneke slugs and copper plated "00" buck will also wreak havoc on a pursueing vehicle or ambush fodder.
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Old February 25, 2009, 11:58 PM   #12
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Ditch the MP5 and get something with better terminal ballistics.
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Old February 27, 2009, 02:30 AM   #13
Firepower!
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Ditched:

MP5SD, M4A1 and Krinkov

Retained:

One Mp5 for the mobile guard who goes indoor with me if needed, and 4 Ak47s. They are loaded with AP bullets.

Replaced:
MP5SD with a G3
M4A1 with USAS12 loaded with drum of slugs

Undecided on what to replace Krinkov with. Perhaps another G3? Or should I reatin M4 and ditch this for CQC.
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Old February 27, 2009, 09:29 AM   #14
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The M4 fills a better roll for CQB than the G3. More capacity, lighter, lighter recoil.

FAL vs M4 is a trade off. You get better ballistics at the price of lower capacity, increased recoil, and the need to train your team on the weapon.
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Old February 27, 2009, 01:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
USAS12 loaded with drum of slugs
There's not much that won't stop.
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Old February 27, 2009, 01:38 PM   #16
freakshow10mm
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Interesting that a lawyer needs a "squad".
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Old February 27, 2009, 02:36 PM   #17
fal308
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Freakshow, Firepower lives in Pakistan
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Old February 27, 2009, 03:05 PM   #18
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Firepower, if I get laid off from hedge tax accounting, can I come work for you?
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Old February 28, 2009, 05:27 AM   #19
Firepower!
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yes
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Old March 1, 2009, 04:09 AM   #20
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Gecko45, is that you??
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Old March 1, 2009, 02:50 PM   #21
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Ridge_Runner_5

Believe it or not, Firepower! is legit.
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Old March 1, 2009, 11:27 PM   #22
David Hineline
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Of course one should always take into consideration that your new formed squad all have incompatible weapons system with ammunition that will not interchange.
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Old March 9, 2009, 04:33 PM   #23
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Awesome, if I do get laid off, I'm there, dude!
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Old March 9, 2009, 11:37 PM   #24
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Get some SBR .308's Works at distance and REALLY well up close! FAL,s Socom's or HK 91's. and carry a BF hk51 in a ambush vehicle to lay down some suppressive fire.

IZ-Hooah.
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Old March 12, 2009, 12:13 PM   #25
Willie Lowman
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How often does your squad train? What is their level of experience?

It seems risky to be changing out their weapons at a moments notice.
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