Fixed sight frustration!

[ZVP]

I've had my4 5/8" stainless Vaquero about 3 yes and after trying dozens of different bullets and loads I finally( by accident) discovered a bullet that fires where the sights point!!!
Thank goodness it's even a factory load! The Remington 158g r/n lead bullet.I'm stocking up!
There is nothing as frustrating ass being just a little left when shooting preciston stuff like playing cards

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I think that if you're not a hand loader, that's what they make those little files for...

if you are shooting low, you can file the front sight down some ( it doesn't take much ) if you are shooting to the left or right, ( please don't "bend the front sight )... take a small file & file your rear sight groove on the side you need to move your point of impact ( if you remove some metal from the side of your rear sight groove, & center the front sight in the groove, it'll move over your point of impact

[Bob Wright]

Fixed sights aren't for precision shooting.

Adjustable sights not only offer precise adjustments, but better sight picture as well.

Either put decent sights on your gun, or get a Blackhawk.

Bob Wright

[L_Killkenny]

Agree with Bob. Any gun that is gonna be used for anything but informal plinkin and close range SD requires better sights than those found on traditional SA guns. Fact is the traditional SA sights pretty well stink even if they do hit POA and they get even worse if they are stainless and/or you're gettin some age on your eyes.

But never fear, there are gunsmiths that can and will install quality sights on your gun. Already savin up myself. Will it affect the looks of a traditional styled gun? Maybe, but how can it be a bad thing if it turns it from a range toy to a useable shooter. Manufactures putting crappy sights on anything but belly guns borders on criminal.

[TheFlash]

I’ve had a 5 ½”bbl blued new model Vaquero in 45 Colt for about 3 yrs now and I’ve shot mostly cowboy loads through it.
I also have a S&W 686 .357 and have shot various .357/.38Spl loads through it.

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine that for each caliber, there is a specific bullet weight that is most aligned with each caliber.
e.g. For .357/38Spl, that bullet weight is 158gr. By contrast, if you shoot a 130gr bullet in .38Spl, you will most likely find that it shoots low.
Same with 45 Colt – the bullet weight for that caliber is 250gr. If you shoot a 200gr bullet, you will most likely find that it shoots low.

My observations with both of my revolvers:
I’ve tried these examples above with Remington 130gr FMJ ammo in .38Spl and some Blazer 200gr JHP in 45 Colt. That is exactly what happened.
Yet, when I use the 158gr and 250gr bullets/ammo, respectively, most of the shots go to point of aim.

So, for your 4 5/8” Vaquero, perhaps try some other 158gr loads (either lead or FMJ) and see how they measure up for point of aim vs. point of impact (POA vs. POI).

Regards,
Mike

[Newton24b]

i have to disagree to a point on the statement that fixed sights are not for good pinpoint accuracy. please remember that the most popular gun for formal target shooting for 20 years was a sw revolver with FIXED sights.

[Bob Wright]

Newton24b wrote:

i have to disagree to a point on the statement that fixed sights are not for good pinpoint accuracy. please remember that the most popular gun for formal target shooting for 20 years was a sw revolver with FIXED sights.

I am not sure to which S&W you refer. But the all the target guns of the Nineteenth Century had fixed TARGET sights. At the time there were the sights preferred by Ira Paine, which consisted of a bead front sight and a U notch rear sight. These were more or less fixed but could be regulated by the individual shooter. The Patridge sight introduced the square notch rear and square post sight, both being in use around the early 1900's.

The most popular S&W target revolver of all time was the K-38 Masterpiece, now the Model 14. This gun had the typical S&W fully adjustable target sights.

But the great target revovlers of their day, the Colt Bisley, Single Action Flat Top, Shooting Master, and New Service Target all had target sights.

The old .44 Russian S&W No. 3 Target had somewhat crude target sights. True, some guns with fixed sights were popular for a time, but when modern guns with target sights appeared on the line, records began falling.

There are fixed sights, and then there are fixed sights. By the former I refer to the grooved frame and plain post front, while by the latter I refer to a good Patridge rear sight dovetailed into the topstrap and a good square post front sight.

Bob Wright

[dgludwig]

i have to disagree to a point on the statement that fixed sights are not for good pinpoint accuracy. please remember that the most popular gun for formal target shooting for 20 years was a sw revolver with FIXED sights.

If by "formal" target shooting you are referencing Bullseye matches, please be advised that revolvers haven't been viable contenders with serious competitors for many decades. And, as Bob Wright pointed out, even when target revolvers (in .38 Special chambering, most of us shot either a Smith K-38 Masterpiece or a Colt Officers Match/Special) were the King of Bullseye, all of them were used with adjustable sights, certainly since the mid-twentieth century and all years later.

[Bob Wright]

Incidentally, bullseye shooting is not precision shooting in the strictest sense. Not to take anything away from target shooters, target shooting is accurate shooting. That is, placing your shots in the X-ring of a target, or as near as possible to it. But consider this: the bullseye is maybe six inches in diameter or more, and a six o'clock hold is normally used. This means you are hitting about three to four inches above the point of aim.

Now, if you target is a dime sized object, the shots will miss. Precision shooting is hitting very small objects, so your pistol or revolver must be sighted to shoot dead on at some practical range.

Precision shooting is what is required for small game such as squirrels, where the head is maybe 1" to 1 1/4" in height.

There is a difference, in my opinion.

Bob Wright

[dgludwig]

Incidentally, bullseye shooting is not precision shooting in the strictest sense.

I'm not sure what you mean. You're still aiming at the "X" ring, whether you're using a 6:00 hold or otherwise. Whether you actually hit the X-ring or not is a separate matter. It is possible to hit the X-ring every time in a Bullseye match, if highly unlikely. If precision shooting means only hitting the X (not just the "ring") every time you aim at it, then benchrest shooting might be the only game that qualifies.

[mavracer]

Fixed sights aren't for precision shooting.

I totally disagree.

Fact is the traditional SA sights pretty well stink even if they do hit POA and they get even worse if they are stainless and/or you're gettin some age on your eyes.

I agree to a point, while they are more difficult to see and require more time to get a proper sight picture, If you can see them and they are regulated properly the small U notch and narrow front sight found on early single actions are very capable of exellent precision accuracy.

[Bob Wright]

dgludwig wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean. You're still aiming at the "X" ring, whether you're using a 6:00 hold or otherwise

.

You are not aiming at the X-Ring, you are aiming at the bottom quadrant of a circle some three or four inches below the X-ring, the black. If you use the same gun/ammo combination aiming at the head of a squirrel, you will go home empty handed.

If you used a center hold to hit dead center, that's precision shooting.

And mavracer wrote:

...........they are more difficult to see and require more time to get a proper sight picture, If you can see them and they are regulated properly the small U notch and narrow front sight found on early single actions are very capable of exellent precision accuracy.

Getting the proper sight picture is most difficult, for me any way, with a groove in the frame sight, as the top of the frame is rounded. This means that often times the eye sees the front sight on a "secant" and other times on a "radial" line, so it becomes very difficult to hold proper elevation, especially at extended ranges. Whether U- or square notch, the bottom makes no difference, only the top lines of the sights count.

I have tried my Vaquero and my Blackhawk out to 200 meters, and the Blackhawk wins hands down.

Bob Wright

[mavracer]

Bob saying "I can't" is very different than "it can't be done". If your going to change your stance to that you can't shoot precision with fixed sights I'm not gonna argue.

I have tried my Vaquero and my Blackhawk out to 200 meters, and the Blackhawk wins hands down.

There's part of your problem the Vaquero does not hold to original Colt style sights the rear sight is square and wide the front sight is wide and still rounded. the original Colt was a very small U notch and a narrow front which gives a much better sight picture like a rifle. when you widen the notch it works much better to flatten the top of the front sight like USFA and Uberti do on their models with wider fronts.
I find very little difference in practical accuracy between my Colt, USFA, Ubertis, Vaquero (with a flattened front sight) and my many Blackhawks.

[roaddog28]

Fixed sights aren't for precision shooting.

Adjustable sights not only offer precise adjustments, but better sight picture as well.

Either put decent sights on your gun, or get a Blackhawk.

Bob Wright

I have to agree with Bob. Any fixed sight handgun are for shooting ranges from 7 to 15 yards. Beyond that range they drop off on accuracy. When a person shops for a handgun, the person has to determine the preferred range they are going to shoot the gun at. Beyond 15 yards its better to buy a adjustable sight handgun so the person can adjust their sights to the ammo they are using.
Howard

[44 AMP]

Whether is it proper to adjust the ammo to the gun, or adjust the gun to the ammo.

With an adjustable sight gun, the choice is simple, you adjust the gun (sights) for the ammo used.

For a fixed sight gun, the choice is more difficult, because if you "adjust" the gun, it is nearly always a permanent change. You can take a file to the sights, but I won't. And I won't advocate it, either. Personally, I consider it butchery.

Any gun is only going to be perfectly "on" with one load, at one range. Adjustable sights give YOU the option to decide what that will be. And the ability to change it at will, and change it back, as often as you want with screwdriver.

You can change fixed sight guns, with a file, but you cannot change it back without the services of a good shop.

Its a personal matter, but if the gun doesn't come with adjustments, I much prefer to "adjust" my ammo, or my aim!

[mavracer]

Any fixed sight handgun are for shooting ranges from 7 to 15 yards. Beyond that range they drop off on accuracy.

The sad part is so many people believe this, It's laughable.
25 yards standing one handed no support.

[ZVP]

Excellent replies! I found a lot I found a lot
Of use in the postings.
Since finding these .38 Specials, no fileingvwill be needed! Plus being a factory load And the fact that i do not reload this is a dream come true!
Compensating for off center hits is a pain and now I can get more precise shot placement. For serious social work I can live with being a bit off and rely on the raw power of the .357 to aid with a stopping hit.
But busting cans and such needs spot-On sight pictures. LOL!
My next S/A will be a Blackhawk with adjustable sights.
Thanks for all youp replies!
ZVPl

[CajunBass]

In my experience most fixed sight, 38/357 revolvers are designed to shoot 158 gr 38 special ammo well. No surprise that's what you found works well in your gun. It's the most common practice ammo in those guns I would think.

Funny thing. I've mostly used guns with adjustable sights, but I very seldom ever adjust them. Now, I admit that most of my shooting is done at seven to ten yards, just punching holes in paper or bounching a can or milk jug around. I might have to admust them left/right one time, usually just a matter of getting them centered, but that's about it.

[Shotgun693]

I load my own so finding a load to match the gun just isn't tough. I shoot SAA Colts, or clones, almost exclusively. Hopefully your gun shoots low out of the box, a little careful file or stone work makes the elevation right. If windage is really bad you can turn the barrel just a bit one way or the other. Go slow on any alteration done to your gun. With a 200 gr RNFP lead bullet, 6.8 gr of Red Dot and a WW Primer I shoot ok. This month I shot a clean match.
BTW, I shoot 'Gunfighter' so the left has to be as good as the left and yep, I have Right Hand Guns and Left Hand Guns.

[spacecoast]

You are not aiming at the X-Ring, you are aiming at the bottom quadrant of a circle some three or four inches below the X-ring, the black. If you use the same gun/ammo combination aiming at the head of a squirrel, you will go home empty handed.

If you used a center hold to hit dead center, that's precision shooting.

If you think about it, I think you would understand the objections of a Bullseye shooter to this logic. Nothing in the rules says you have to use a 6 o'clock hold.

[bedbugbilly]

I've got a New Vaquero with a 5 1/2" barrel in 357. I primarily shoot 38 spl. Mine shoots best USUALLLY with the 158 gr. but I often use smaller as well.

I'm no "Annie Oakley" and I don't shoot competition. I have shot SA for years though - mainly BP revolvers and primarily a '51 Colt Navy. If you remember, those usually have a post front sight and a notch in the hammer for the rear.

Not trying to start a controversy . . . but shooting a SA - such as a Colt or Colt clone is a whole lot different than shooting a "target model" with adjustable sights. If you expect it to shoot like perhaps one of your semi-autos with adjustable sights or a Blawkhawk with adjustable sights - then you need to learn your revolver and how it shoots. You also need to learn a little "kentucky windage" as well.

I have a Colt Army special in 38 spl. as well as a S & W M & P Target in 38 spl. I can do better with my S & W than I can with the Colt AS but with the AS, I've also learned how it shoots and where it hits with certain loads/bullet weights.

I have a feeling that if the NV was the "only" pistol you were shooting - i.e. no others . . . you would soon learn it well enough that you'd compensate for different loads. The problem a lot of us have in this day and age is that we don't just shoot "one" - we shoot a bunch of 'em.

The old saying has always been . . . "beward fo the man who shoots just one gun". I've pretty uch found that true and have seen it time and time again in muzzleloading where a fellow has just one rifle instead of switching off to a number of different rifles.

I hope the OP won't give up on his SA New Vaquero - the old style single actions are an interesting breed - they just are in a class of their own.

[Bob Wright]

Spacecoast wrote:

If you think about it, I think you would understand the objections of a Bullseye shooter to this logic. Nothing in the rules says you have to use a 6 o'clock hold.

First of all, a center hold in bullseye shooting is somewhat difficult, as that puts black sights centered in a black circle, making a good view of the sight picture difficult. Hence, most shooters use a six o'clock hold for better sight picture definition.

Having said that, with a gun sighted in for a six o'clock hold at ,say twenty five yards and an eight inch (or so) diameter bullseye, and hitting in the X-ring, paste several Birchwood Casey bullseye targets on a target paper, from one inch diameter through say three inches diameter. Fire at these and you will notice that you will be hitting high, the smaller the bull, the higher the group. As you fire at larger bulls, the group will begin to cut the black.

Bob Wright

[spacecoast]

with a gun sighted in for a six o'clock hold

Exactly

[dgludwig]

Quote:
You are not aiming at the X-Ring, you are aiming at the bottom quadrant of a circle some three or four inches below the X-ring, the black. If you use the same gun/ammo combination aiming at the head of a squirrel, you will go home empty handed.

If you used a center hold to hit dead center, that's precision shooting.


If you think about it, I think you would understand the objections of a Bullseye shooter to this logic. Nothing in the rules says you have to use a 6 o'clock hold.

__________________


As a long time Bullseye shooter, I certainly object to this "logic". I have used both a center hold and a 6:00 hold many times; sometimes in the same match (when shooting at different distances in the same match-i.e., 50 yards for the slow-fire stage; 25 yards for the timed and rapid-fire stages-I will often hold center for one distance and six o'clock for the other). When my bullet strikes the X-ring squarely while using either hold (an event that is getting much rarer these days as I get older ) that, imo, is precise shooting. To call an X-ring shot precision shooting when it occurred while holding center (lets not forget that every shooter has a "wobble" area, so the sights are almost never really "dead center" anyway when the shot is made-a pretty imprecise way to deliver an accurate shot if you ask me) and to call an X-ring shot less than precise because it happened while holding the sights at 6:00, seems more like an excercise in semantics than it does logical thinking.
On the other hand, no matter which of the two sight pictures you adopt, is it really ever "precision" shooting if the bullet from a pistol being held in one hand, at a distance of fifty yards during a wind storm, hits the X-ring-or just plain good fortune?

[223 shooter]

But busting cans and such needs spot-On sight pictures. LOL!
My next S/A will be a Blackhawk with adjustable sights.

Yeah going with an adjustable sight revolver is the way to go especially when you have a 357 that can fire sedate 700 fps 38 Spcl. target loads to 1400 fps Magnums.

Add to that the range of bullet weights usually ranging from 110 - 180 grains and the advantage of adjustable sights is really obvious if you want to use the same sight picture for every load available.