The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 8, 2012, 08:43 PM   #1
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: Northeast, Maryland
Posts: 441
Should I use 147 grains for my 9mm winter carry load?

Well summer will soon be coming to a close and winter not so far off. With luck it will be a cold winter, at least I hope. I don't know about you all but I LOVE the cold! I am often referred to by my friends as Tom, the Soviet Bear. No, I'm not Russian, or a Communist for that matter. Lets just say that sometime Big Tom likes to get out and Party and just happens to Act like a Soviet Russian (accent and all) when he hits the brandy bottle a little too hard.

BACK ON TOPIC: Anyways, onto the subject at hand and this one is very important to me. Assuming winter is COLD for once and everyone is wearing heavier winter clothing I was wondering if I should still use my 124 +P Rem Golden Sabers or get a heavier grain bullet. I have a Kel Tec P11 and the +p's snap a bit much for me and with the heavier bullets I hear that since they are not +p that they would snap a bit less. The kel tec has a 3.1" barrel and I was wondering if the 147 grains would expand enough or if anyone thinks the cavity would clog with less velocity from the 3" barrel and a heavier bullet weight. My local gun shop has a bunch of Hornaday Custom 147 XTP's in at a generous price of just $14.99 a box. I was thinking about picking some up and seeing how it works in the P11. What does everyone think?
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 08:57 PM   #2
RBid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2012
Posts: 1,059
Penetration first, expansion second. The 147gr are great. I prefer Speer Gold Dots, but you're talking about other great brands.

Whether you switch for the weather, or keep using the 124gr +P, you're using a great load.
__________________
Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2
RBid is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 10:23 PM   #3
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
I doubt the BG could care less what you use if you ever have to use your gun. Just make sure your proficient with whatever you use and you gun works great with whatever you feed it.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 10:58 PM   #4
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: Northeast, Maryland
Posts: 441
I was curious if the 147's would be reliable in a 3.1" barrel. I have a Ruger P95 I use as a bed stand gun loaded with Golden Sabers and a 20 Gauge Mossberg Pump. But since the Kel tec is so much lighter I wanted a lesser recoiling round. So I was looking into standard pressure 147's. I just want to make sure the HP's don't plug from clothing and then over penetrate.
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 11:05 PM   #5
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
You'll prob have to shoot them to see if they're reliable in your gun. I'm sure they will be and I'm sure they be just as accurate.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 07:58 PM   #6
TacticalDefense1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,277
No reason to switch loads. Your load passes the FBI protocol barrier tests and will perform adequately through heavy clothing. The Hornady XTP is a step backwards IMO. Its a fine hunting bullet but does not perform overly well as a defensive bullet. There is a reason why Hornady has been forced to move away from it in their defensive ammunition and come up with better designs. Stick with what you have.
TacticalDefense1911 is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 08:25 PM   #7
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
Just use premium ammo , whatever weight bullet.
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 08:27 PM   #8
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 4,159
Big Tom- I guess the wrist is feeling better?

Quote:
I just want to make sure the HP's don't plug from clothing and then over penetrate.
I'm not so sure that whole worry isn't a tad over-thought. With todays clothing, styles, material, insulations, drugs of choice- who's to say what any given BG is going to wear? I know it's probably all about liklihoods and percentages, but can you name any major LE agency that changes ammo between seasons? We don't. I don't know what all was wrong with your wrist, but why take chances with all the +P stuff? The regular 124 Rem Golden Saber works fine and dandy, as it has for years. Also, there's the added bonus that not shooting +P's may benefit the life expectancy of your firearms. I'm not knocking them, and any round fired adds even the smallest amount of wear to a firearm- right? If .380's, .32's, and .22's reach into the realm of what you consider (judging from your previous posts/threads), ask yourself why regular run-of-the-mill 9mm's aren't suitable. Just a thought.
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.
10-96 is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 09:20 PM   #9
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 389
I think it's a little more complicated, and a little more difficult for a LEA to institute a seasonal switch of ammo.

I feel confident that the Winchester Bonded (RA9B) is going to punch through leather/denim/heavy winter clothing and penetrate sufficiently - even on a cross shot through a bicep or something.

But I also think the 147 grain Ranger T is good - Summer or Winter

I think switching to 147 in the Winter is a good idea, as long as you have ensured it functions reliably in your pistol and you're also practicing regularly with it.

Last edited by Luger_carbine; September 9, 2012 at 10:49 PM.
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 09:52 PM   #10
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,435
If you're going to switch to a 147gr load, I would not recommend Hornady XTP's. That particular bullet design works best when driven at high velocities that 9mm simply doesn't produce with 147gr bullets. In a 147gr loading, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, or Federal HST would be much better than the Hornady XTP's. In Hornady's line, however, the 135gr Critical Duty would probably make an excellent winter loading as it cannot clog up with heavy clothing like other JHP designs can. That being said, I really don't see anything wrong with your 124gr Golden Sabers regardless of what time of the year it is.
Webleymkv is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 09:56 PM   #11
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
I'd definitely make sure your gun handles them 100% but I say people can over think this way too much. I say get a premium load and go with it. Better to be efficient with your gun and ammo than to carry the latest greatest because someone said its good and can't hit the broard side of a barn.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 10:05 PM   #12
JustinBiscuit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 184
no expert here

I would think you would want a lighter (faster) grain bullet in the winter. Idea is a hollow point has to slow down enough to start tumbling and a high velocity bullet would penetrate more clothing before tumbling.

again I'm am not an expert and I would highly recommend against trusting your life based on anything I say!
JustinBiscuit is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 10:09 PM   #13
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Maybe you could carry about 6-8 different mags with different ammo and when you see what you're going up against you can use mags accordingly.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 11:10 PM   #14
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: Northeast, Maryland
Posts: 441
10-96,

It's actually not improved at all. Some days it hurts more than others. But I am trying that off hand thing with my .32 and it's going to take a lot of practice BUT I am getting the feel for it. I wanted to use standard pressure because the +p's snap more than I like in that little Kel Tec. HST's are really hard to find. I was told the 147's did have better penetration over the 124 and that the 124 had a marginal difference in expansion. I was thinking of the .45 concept but without using a .45 since A) I dont have one and B) I cant practice with a caliber that expensive to shoot.


By the way guys, what do you make of this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYZZn...layer_embedded

and this article?
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/2...pmarks_200807/
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!

Last edited by Big Tom; September 9, 2012 at 11:17 PM.
Big Tom is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 03:03 AM   #15
RBid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2012
Posts: 1,059
JustinBiscuit,

Tumbling is not part of the theory or design of hollow points.

Short version:
- handgun rounds kill in two ways: 1) separating the brain from the central nervous system, 2) bleed-out.

- since the first way is very difficult to accomplish, round design caters to the second.

- in order to do as much damage as possible, the round should penetrate deeply, and expand sufficiently (in that order) to create the largest permanent wound cavity possible

- a 9mm round is typically 115gr, 124gr, 135gr, or 147gr in weight. Rounds noted for using 'tumbling' as a means of damage, like the 5.56, are considerably lighter. A common weight in the 5.56 would be 63 grains. Even with these rounds, you're really looking for yaw and fragmentation in tissue, rather than true internal ricochet.

- within a caliber, heavier rounds tend to penetrate better, at a slight loss of expansion. This is OK. A 147gr Gold Dot will reliably expand to over .50.
__________________
Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2
RBid is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 07:06 AM   #16
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,528
Winchesters PDX1 has a great 147gr hp. They have preformed very well on balistic test.
Mystro is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 02:07 PM   #17
JustinBiscuit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 184
RBid -

Thank you for the clarification.
JustinBiscuit is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 04:49 PM   #18
Coltman 77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,244
124 gr. +P Gold Dot, or bonded Golden Saber should be just fine. As has been mentioned, put a bunch through your pistol and see what feeds flawlessly.

Both of the above should work well.
__________________
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated".
Ernest Hemingway

Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA
Coltman 77 is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 06:31 PM   #19
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: Northeast, Maryland
Posts: 441
a second question, does anyone know if speer makes a standard pressure 158 grain .38 special load? I may also carry my little rossi as a back up.
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 06:36 PM   #20
Wahoo95
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 62
147gr are my choice for all 4 seasons. I prefer HST or Ranger Talons. If you're not opposed to ordering online check Lawmens as they stock HST.
Wahoo95 is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 08:46 PM   #21
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,137
Quote:
a second question, does anyone know if speer makes a standard pressure 158 grain .38 special load? I may also carry my little rossi as a back up.
It's not listed on Speer's site.
KyJim is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 09:01 PM   #22
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 714
Quote:
I was wondering if I should still use my 124 +P Rem Golden Sabers or get a heavier grain bullet.
The 124g rounds should work just fine.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 09:43 PM   #23
RBid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2012
Posts: 1,059
JustinBiscuit,

You're very welcome, sir. The community here is so great because people take time to help each other.
__________________
Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2
RBid is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 02:43 PM   #24
N.M. Edmands
Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2001
Location: Yarnell,Arizona
Posts: 48
Could be just me but 147s SEEM to be softer shooting in all my 9s.
Winchester Ranger RA9T was what I used and I perceived them as softer even compared to 115 and 124 practice ammo.
__________________
Nat

"Some where something incredible is waiting to be known" -Carl Sagan
"It aint how good you shoot,it's how cool you look doing it." -Fred Sayre 1994
N.M. Edmands is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 04:03 PM   #25
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
147-grain is the only load I'll carry in 9 when I finally add one to my collection instead of just shooting other peoples', and the load I point my friends toward when they get their first guns (two of the folks I've helped pick out their first gun are stocked with 147-grain Gold Dot, the other fellow with 147-grain Winchester Ranger-T (RA9T). I'm also very fond of the Federal HST in this weight.

Modern hollowpoint design has virtually eliminated the expansion issues that went along with old 147s. The modern 9mm 147-grain gives you perfectly reliable expansion with the (sometimes) deeper penetration of a heavier projectile.

There are, of course, a good deal of wonderful 124 +p loads, Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T being particularly outstanding, but I avoid +p loads whenever possible.
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them
LockedBreech is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10957 seconds with 8 queries