Single stage vs Turret. Honestly.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Doby45

The ONLY difference in a single stage and a turret/progressive press is......... time.

That may be the main difference, but there are others.

Single stage press, for all practical purposes, does batch processing only

Turret Press is equally facile at batch processing as continuous processing

Progressive Press is designed for continuous processing (capable of batch with some accommodations)

Most Single stage presses are one piece and thus have no clearance play.

Turret presses, being an assembly of parts, have some play. Usually this results in no difference in the ammo produced, but there are those who believe differently.

Progressives are mixed.

The strongest leverage presses are single stage. Not all of them, of course. But RCBS RockChucker, Redding Big Boss, Forster Co-Ax have a lot of leverage and it's not spread out over multiple die stations or off-axis.

A lot of differences, but the main effect is speed/time.

Lost Sheep

[Doby45]

So in effect after everything you said, it goes back to time because speed is time.

You can make the exact same quality of ammo with either a single stage press or a progressive. Sure there are tons of differences with money. Highend progressive vs low to mid cost progressives. Same can be said for high end single stages vs low to mid single stages. All that is a difference in dollars, but the reality of the presses themselves is time.

So in the end, it is time that is the only true difference in a single stage press and a progressive press.

[Lost Sheep]

Doby45, I am truly sorry if you are offended at my exception to your opinion.

I repeat. Time/Speed is not the ONLY true difference. It is the most significant among several.

Lost Sheep

[dacaur]

Break it down far enough and everything comes down to "time". But that is far from the most important factor.... When I am driving, if I know route A is faster, but more aggravating to me, while route B is a little slower, but also keeps my blood pressure down, I will choose Route B, most of the time.... Its a balance....

You have to decide how much time you want to spend reloading. If you shoot 5000 rounds a month, yea you "could" do that on a single stage, but then you spend so much time loading, you dont get to shoot it. OTOH, if you shoot 500 rounds a month, You could do that on a single stage without spending ridiculous amounts of time reloading, or do it in 1/3 the time on a turret.... For me, the less time I spend at the reloading bench the better. I havent found a way to enjoy it the way some people have, its a means to an end for me.

If you break it down far enough it might come out that time is the only real difference, but it would be stupid to consider that alone.... Cost and ease should be a bigger concern than time. If someone GAVE me a press that could turn out one round of GREAT ammo every 10 min, I would throw it in the trash, because with my turret press I can turn out 1 round of GREAT ammo in a fraction of the time.... OTOH, if someone GAVE me a press that turned out great ammo fast, but was a serious pain the the rear to use, with the need for constant fiddling and cursing, that one would go in the trash too, because I dont need the aggravation...

Honestly in my mind, time shouldn't really be a factor. Budget and the # of rounds you shoot per month should be the deciding factor, and perhaps your favorite color.

These days, there are no "bad" presses, just overpriced ones. In the days before the Internet, a company could get away with making a POS and still sell thousands of them. But with the Internet today, if a press is a POS, people will post it online, and others wont buy it. So basicaly, whatever you buy is going to turn out great ammo. You will pay more for some, but the end result will be the same.

Speaking of prices....
When you look at the prices of single stage presses alone, there really isnt that great a difference. A Lee classic breech lock cast press costs just over $100, a hornady $140, Lyman $125, redding $129, RCBS $140. The big difference comes when you buy the kit, its the price of the accessories that really skyrockets the prices. I dont understand how hornady can sell their press for $140 alone, then charge $335 for the kit ($195 difference) , when lee charges $65 for the challenger press alone and $120 for the kit ($55 difference) And when you start getting into turrets, wow... A lyman, rcbs, or redding turret costs almost $50? really? Lee can do it for $12?..

I totaly "get" why some people are lee bashers.... If I knew I paid 2-3X what someone else paid and their ammo was the same quality as mine, I would be upset too

Sorry, got a little off track there.... /rant

[Lost Sheep]

Well put, Dacaur. Thanks.

Two exceptions:

Progressives do things at simultaneously. That is intrinsically (qualitatively as well as quantitatively) different from any other press type and makes a major difference.

I would never trash a press that might fit someone else's loading style. I would try to trade it off or give it away to someone who could use it. I would only trash a press that was irredeemably defective.

Lost Sheep

[Wyoredman]

My press is a Lyman turret. I purchased this press, used, for very little money. I most often use this press as a single stage because I have several rifles in the same calliber and need to reset the dies for each rifle rather than leaving them in the turret.

I also load several handgun callibers for different guns, thus dies need adjusted every time! I think that if you were going to only load for one gun in a given calliber, the turret may save some time, but it is not practicle in my situation.

I believe the batch method is best when loading for rifle accuracy anyway. A single stage press is perfect for accuracy and batch loading. When it wears out, I will replace my old Lyman with a single stage. Just my$0.02.

[Jeff H]

Quite a few of you have responded with your opinions about other turret presses than the Lee one. Note that the OP only is considering the Lee press which is totally different than any other turret press on the market. It auto indexes and the turret head is not held in place by a center bolt that can cause pivoting of the turret.

With the Lee Classic turret you get an excellent press that is cheaper than most other companies single stage presses. You get the capability of 200+ rounds per hour with enough stations to crimp and seat in different stations if you prefer that setup.

There are no bad habits with the LCT, there are no known flaws if set up correctly. It works and works well and the only maintenance item is a little oil on the ram and changing the black plastic ratchet when it wears out.

I personally would get the LCT as your 1st press and then upgrade to a progressive if you need more speed later down the road, but you will never sell your LCT. Even loading rifle rounds with all the extra steps, the final charging, bullet seating and crimping (if you are into that) can be done so much faster and just as accurate as on your grandfather's single stage.

[theshephard]

My co-ax single stage cost as much or more than I paid for my Lyman T-Mag kit, if I remember correctly. I agree that both can produce just as accurate ammo but from my experiences I'd say I can personally produce more consistent ammo for competition on a single stage. My efforts on a my turret produced more variance resulting in more re-dos, but again we're talking about conditions requiring very tight tolerances.
For plinking, hunting, non-competition target practice and fun, where I care less about dead-nuts consistent bullet seating depth, coal, etc, I use a turret.
I still mostly batch on a turret though, with the exception of sizing and expanding each round in one go, but then priming is all done in batch, powder in batch and seating in batch. That's probably just to keep things straight in my mind. However I do seem to recall that time & motion studies show people can complete a process more quickly by doing single actions in batch, which is the theory behind assembly line efficiencies. However with a single stage you'd need to handicap all this with the die change-over time, which is where the turret really saves time for me.

[dacaur]

It auto indexes and the turret head is not held in place by a center bolt that can cause pivoting of the turret.

I used to worry about that too, but after careful study, the turret doesnt "pivot" it simply slides up to take up the play (which is required on any turret so it can rotate), but it slides up the same amount all the way around, anything else would defy the laws of physics. You are pressing up on the turret, its going to go up. If it were held by a bolt in the middle, then it could actualy tilt, and the harder you pressed the more it would tilt, pivoting on the bolt. But since lee presses lack a center bolt, there is nothing for it to pivot on, pressing up anyplace on the turret causes the side you are pressing on to go up first, but with a little more pressure, the other side goes up too, so its all straight. And since its going up when you set up the dies, it doesnt throw anything off, since the die is automatically taken into account. There is no pivoting of concern in lee turret presses.

Honestly the quality of your dies makes a bigger difference than turret vs single stage. You are fooling yourself if you think you are going to turn out benchrest quality ammo with a $40 die set with ANY press. A turret press with precision dies will load better (more concentric) ammo than a single stage with mediocre dies, however 99% of us would never see the difference. If you are happy with anything over .25moa or so, you would never notice the difference.....

Punching tiny groups in paper is fun once in a while, but gongs and reactive targets are way more fun, and no gong, rabbit, or deer alive will ever know the difference between .25moa and 1 moa.

[Marco Califo]

"The ONLY difference in a single stage and a turret/progressive press is......... time."

Yes, it is just a matter of time until you decide you want the turret.

On the turret, I usually work through one complete round in sequence, turning the turret: size, prime, charge, bullet, seat.

Using a single stage, it is: size 50, then prime 50, then charge . . . once the powder is in I place a bullet and work the handle.

I am not sure the turret is any faster to load, but it is handy to have several turret heads and have the dies already adjusted.

Then, it is just a matter of time until you decide you want the progressive.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Wyoredman

(edited for brevity)
I also load several handgun callibers for different guns, thus dies need adjusted every time! I think that if you were going to only load for one gun in a given calliber, the turret may save some time, but it is not practicle in my situation.

I believe the batch method is best when loading for rifle accuracy anyway. A single stage press is perfect for accuracy and batch loading. When it wears out, I will replace my old Lyman with a single stage. Just my$0.02.
__________________
Go Pokes!

One of the things that turret users love most about turrets (and this goes for the Breech-lock lovers, too) is that the dies do NOT have to be readjusted each time you swap calibers (or swap dies).

You go with what makes you most comfortable, but don't let that Lyman go for too low a price.

There's a lot to be said for batch processing. Go for it

My experience with my turret press is that the die adjustment stays pretty much spot-on. Do you torque the center nut the same amount every time? Just a wild guess in the dark.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

theshephard, dacaur, Marco Califo,

All your posts are spot-on. Different needs of different shooters give rise to different choices of loading equipment.

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

I am not sure the turret is any faster to load, but it is handy to have several turret heads and have the dies already adjusted.

If you use batch processing, you can save a few minutes per loading session. If you use continuous processing, even without the auto-indexing you can be significantly faster. twice, maybe thrice as fast.

Originally Posted by dacaur

no gong, rabbit, or deer alive will ever know the difference between .25moa and 1 moa.

But the dead ones will. If my calculations are correct (at this time of night, that is open to question) a head shot (half-inch) on a prairie dog at 300 yards is a clean miss at 0.25 moa. Some single-stage press users give an EXTRAORDINARY value to the stiffness of a press that is cast in one piece. Others give extraordinary value to the legendary alignment of the Forster Co-Ax.

Me, I have no position on the matter (no dog in the fight), but recognize that others have strong feelings.

Originally Posted by Jeff H

It works and works well and the only maintenance item is a little oil on the ram and changing the black plastic ratchet when it wears out.

A little dry lube or spray silicone on the turret doesn't hurt and should increase its life.

I think the Lee Classic Turret is the best turret press on the market today (provided you don't need more than 4 die stations).

Originally Posted by Jeff H

just as accurate as on your grandfather's single stage.

Depends on your grandfather's press. I have a friend with a center-post style turret. It loads accurate rounds, but the turret does tilt just a little. My RCBS Rockchucker and (I am told) ultra-fine presses like the Redding Big Boss and Forster Co-Ax are the ultimate in concentricity. In theory, at least, I agree. Presses cast in one piece and presses with fine machining in symmetrical design will be straighter and more concentric. That's just my opinion. I also hold the opinion that only the MOST discerning shooters and the most accurate of rifles will be able to display the difference. But that's what 1,000 yard shooting is all about, isn't it?

Respectfully submitted as just my personal opinions,

Lost Sheep

[Wyoredman]

Lost sheep, You are correct. I was not very clear in my original post. I ment to get across that if using the same die set for several differant guns, the dies need adjustment between loading for those individuals firearms. I do understand that it is not as critical for hand gun ammo, but i do have one 1911 that likes more crimp than my other. So, I need to adjust the dies when loading for it. Thus the turret does not save time in that respect. BTW, I will not sell my Lyman, only wear it out!

[Kayser]

Pure nerd followup here, but there's a technical crossover here you guys might be interested in. You can use a progressive press as an exact description of how a modern cpu works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_%28computing%29

CPUs execute instructions in a pipelined manner, just like you reload a round on a progressive. A simplified set of stages might be "decode instruction / resize", "fetch memory the instruction needs data from / bell", "perform some operation on this data / powder+bullet", "write the result back to another location / crimp". Just like with a progressive press, by breaking each instruction up into these multiple pieces you can have many instructions "in flight" at once. So even though it takes N "ticks" to execute an instruction fully, you are getting one instruction completed every tick. Just like it takes 4 stages to complete a finished round, but you get one every pull of the handle.

Also as with progressives, "stalling" the pipeline causes a huge performance penalty. If for some reason you had to restart the pipeline on the progressive, you would be introducing a latency of N, where N = the number of stages. So one round per N handle pulls - just like a turret press. On a modern CPU, pipelines can be very deep (50 cycles?), so introducing a stall is a devastating performance problem.

Anyways, I've always liked that little analogy. Thought you guys might find it interesting.

[ScottRiqui]

Good analogy, except I suspect that anyone that understands CPU pipelining probably doesn't need to have the difference between a progressive and a single-stage press explained to them. Or are you suggesting using a reloading press as an analogy to explain CPU pipelining?

I just use the analogy of an automotive assembly line. While it may take several hours for one particular car to be built from start to finish, once all the stages of the assembly line are full and operating concurrently, a finished car pops off the end of the assembly line every few minutes.

[Kayser]

>Or are you suggesting using a reloading press as an analogy to explain CPU >pipelining?

This

It's fun demystifying computers.

[dacaur]

definitely agree that a good single stage with precision dies can load better ammo than any turret, but my point is simply that few people will see or be able to use that added precision.

Any current press with any current die set out there is going to make ammo more accurate than 90+% of people out there are capable (skill-wise or equipment-wise) of taking advantage of.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by dacaur

definitely agree that a good single stage with precision dies can load better ammo than any turret, but my point is simply that few people will see or be able to use that added precision.

Any current press with any current die set out there is going to make ammo more accurate than 90+% of people out there are capable (skill-wise or equipment-wise) of taking advantage of.

Too true. So sad that I am not the "sureshot" I would like to be.

Lost Sheep

[Rifleman1776]

Comparing Lee with Lee is like searching for the world's talled midget.
Comparing loses is always an exercise in frustration.
FWIW, I use an old Lyman turret and like it. Conventient.
But, a good quality single stage will turn out ammo, in batches, just as fast and with consistent quality.

[ScottRiqui]

But, a good quality single stage will turn out ammo, in batches, just as fast and with consistent quality.

I don't see how a single stage can be "just as fast", at least if you're comparing it to an auto-indexing turret, simply because every step that you have to perform with an auto-indexing turret, you also have to perform with a single-stage, PLUS the fact that with a single-stage, you're moving the case back and forth from the shellholder to the loading block at least three extra times.

[David Wile]

Hey Scott,

I would agree with you when talking about single stage compared to an auto-indexing turret. To my way of thinking, an auto-indexing turret is a semi-progressive press, somewhere between a single stage and a true progressive. The auto-indexing turret does not complete a finished round with a single cycle of the handle as does a true progressive, but it can produce a single round with several cycles of the handle. While I never used an auto-indexing turret, I would think one could do 50 rounds faster on the auto-index turret press than I can do with a single stage press. While you would only put each case in the press once, you would still have the same or near-same number of handle cycles to do the same number of finished rounds.

How much faster would it be? I don't know, but it would not be that significant to me. If I want to make a significant change in my throughput speed of reloading, I would skip the auto-indexing machine and go to a true progressive.

For those who suggest regular old fashioned turret loading is faster than single stage batch loading, I am more inclined to agree with Rifleman. The turret folks usually say they save time by only having to place the case in the press one time compared to several times while batch loading. While that may be true on its own, it does ignore the fact that once you place a case in the turret press, you then have to turn the turret several times for each case while processing each round.

If you could get the fastest batch loader to go up against the fastest turret loader, I would suspect the turret loader would win such a race. However, I don't think the turret guy would be that much faster, and the fact is I would not want to be shooting any of the loads from either of the two competitors. I do not place a whole lot of confidence in any kind of "speed loading" whether it be single stage, turret, or progressive loading.

I owned and used an old Lyman turret press for a short time over 40 years ago. I did not like using the turret press and went back to my old ways of batch loading on single stage presses. That does not mean single stage was better - only that I liked single stage batch processing better for my use. Many years later, I bought a progressive press for rifle and pistol loading. I actually had been using progressive shotshell presses since about 1960, so I had some idea of how they worked and what they could do. In the case of both progressive shotshell as well as progressive metallic presses, I never did replace my single stage presses with progressive presses. To this day, I still have and use single stage presses for certain jobs just as I use progressive presses for certain jobs.

In all of the reloading I do, however, top reloading speed is never an objective for me. I do use the progressives because they do load faster, but I never race to see how many whatever I can load in an hour. That is also true with my single stage presses.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[CrustyFN]

While I never used an auto-indexing turret, I would think one could do 50 rounds faster on the auto-index turret press than I can do with a single stage press. While you would only put each case in the press once, you would still have the same or near-same number of handle cycles to do the same number of finished rounds.

David I have never loaded on a single stage but have an auto indexing turret. I load around 175 per hour at a relaxed pace. I can load 200 per hour if I want but I'm not in a hurry.

[David Wile]

Hey Crusty,

I could not load 175 rounds an hour on a single stage press. Maybe 100, but not 175. These days I really do not bother loading 100 rounds single stage. When I use single stage today, it is usually for a half dozen or so rounds at a time. If I want to load 100 rounds, or even 900 rounds or more, I will do that kind of a job on my progressive press. I just never appreciated a turret press and prefer single stage batch loading to turret press methods.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[markr]

First of all, I didn't know what I was thinking NOT getting the Lee Classic Turret the first time around. Secondly, I can shoot down to the basement and bang out 20 rounds in relatively short order. True you can bang out a lot of rounds on a single stage using the batch method, but if you only want say, 20, setting up dies up to three times, and returning every shell to the press three times is kind of cumbersome. To each their own.

[oneounceload]

I personally would have no use for a turret press.

I do everything in batches.

Process brass one night. Prime it the next. Next night, put a bunch in a loding block on left, charge with powder and put it on right. Put charged cases back on left. Seat bullets and put on right.

If loading revolver rounds, they go back to the left, get crimped and put on right.

+1 on the batch method - allows me to visually check every powder charge when they are in the loading block - a handy feature when loading small cartridges that only take a few grains of powder