Cadmium

studman5578 · April 4, 2012, 12:43 PM

Has anybody tried alloying cadmium with lead? I imagine that its not a common thing that many people have but I recently acquired almost 100 lbs of it and am interested in its properties. I read on a patent article from the '20s that a .8 wt% alloy of Cd-Pb will yield same hardness as 3% Sn-Pb. Any personal experiences? Thanks

MikeG · April 4, 2012, 07:34 PM

As a word of caution, cadmium is highly toxic.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/cadmium/

Heating cadmium with lead strikes me as a particularly bad idea.

darkroommike · April 5, 2012, 01:34 AM

Stay away from that stuff, not only is the dust toxic, but the fumes are toxic (ask any welder!) and you risk contaminating a whole bunch of lead. Cadmium is also closely "related" to zinc and may (or may not) ruin a batch of alloy in the same way that zinc would. I'm not a chemist. It's probably worth selling to a salvage yard. Note that a lot of old school processes that used to use cadmium (photo paper and bright finished bolts in example) went crazy getting the cadmium out a while back from environmental concerns in much the same way they shunned mercury, selenium and strontium.

studman5578 · April 5, 2012, 07:07 AM

So I initially thought the same so I did some research. Here's what I found:

http://dge.stanford.edu/SCOPE/SCOPE_...ter6_53-68.pdf

I didn't read it 100% but I read a fair portion and from what I read, this article agrees with the claims from the people that gave it to me that Cd poses no additional risks than Pb. It does affect the body in other ways, but generally it is similar.

I will investigate the article's mentioned "cancer" risk further. Also, keep in mind that the Cd that I have is in brick form, similar to lead, so no chemical processing is required. My ordinary casting procedures of HEPA respirators would still be employed when/if I decide to test this stuff out.

The fact that Cd shares an atomic group with Zn may result in poor castibility, but I think that because the metals are in neutral metal form, being in the same column on the periodic table wouldn't have much of an affect because the columns are based on the valence electrons of a given element.

Goatwhiskers · April 9, 2012, 06:42 AM

Some people learn by instruction, some learn by observation, some just have to pee on the electric fence anyway. Goat

MikeG · April 9, 2012, 11:23 PM

HEPA respirators won't protect you. Cadmium can be absorbed through the skin.

Cherry picking scientific papers won't protect you either. I've seen other sources that state cadmium is ten times more toxic as lead or mercury.

Worse, it will contaminate your home or wherever you try to cast with it and put others at risk.

I see a hospital and EPA superfund site in your future.

**Mal H** · April 9, 2012, 11:54 PM

Let's see what the folks who have the most to gain from Cd use and sales have to say about it:
"The International Cadmium Association" http://www.cadmium.org/pg_n.php?id_menu=5

It is a toxic substance no matter what the claims are of the people who gave it to you.

hornetguy · April 10, 2012, 01:40 PM

It sounds to me like you've already decided you have to try it, and are just wanting some sort of agreement from the forum.

You aren't going to get it.
Cadmium is known to be highly toxic. There is nothing to be gained from experimenting with it.

Don't be stupid. Sell the cadmium to someone that can use it in a way it was intended to be used, and buy some lead/tin/antimony alloy and be done with it.
Don't be the fool that just HAS to pee on the electric fence, as mentioned earlier.

Sigowner · April 10, 2012, 04:50 PM

I don't want to hit this too hard because you've already received many warnings re cad. I can tell you from first hand observation in a small Oklahoma town called Blackwell that cad is carcinogenic and one of the worst heavy metals there is. The incidence of cancer and cancer plus other respiratory related diseases and deaths was significantly above the national average for all the diseases and I assure you that a 400 foot smoke stack is not the norm just for smelting zinc. American Metals Climax was forced to shut down by the EPA and the entire area was placed on the mega spill list. There continue to be issue because of the leakage into ground water.....and that is now 75 years after operations began!

briandg · April 12, 2012, 07:38 AM

It has been said for half a century not to use battery lead, because they use cadmium in battery alloy, and that

"cadmium in the alloy will ruin the lead for casting." Sorry I can't give you a citation.

Let me repeat the warnings that cadmium is going to mess you up physically to the point of leaving you paralyzed or dead if you use it long enough.

last but not least, if anyone finds out that you have deliberately loaded cadmium into lead and scattered it around the landscape, you may be facing federal prosecution for spreading toxic heavy metal compounds. The owners of the range may sue you for having put federally regulated toxic metals into the soil.

The entire town of picher, oklahoma, was bought out by the EPA, and torn down because of lead and zinc contamination of the soil, and cadmium in the aquifer. Tar creek is so toxic that people have died just by peeing into the water.

Seriously. If you are found by the feds to have created ammo and fired that ammo, releasing cadmium into the atmosphere and land, you WILL be in deep crap. you don't have the necessary papers to do so. You will maybe pay fines, go to federal prison, and have to pay for remediation of contaminated lands. This is what happens in cases like that.

Many people have gone through this exact thing for dumping asbestos building materials.

Axelwik · April 12, 2012, 09:45 PM

According to the World Health Organization the acceptable weekly exposure to cadmium is 7 parts per BILLION. That's pretty small - inhale one good whiff and you'll probably exceed that by a couple orders of magnitude.

studman5578 · April 25, 2012, 11:12 AM

I have not 'made up my mind' to use cadmium already, I was bringing up the idea and wanted to see if there was ACTUAL experience of people using it. People just talking about here-say and what they assume about a topic is useless to me, so thanks to those who actually gave me numbers and citations.

In regards, to 'cherry picking' the scientific articles, I was having a difficult time finding credible articles that provided information about exposure and health effects, and that was the best I had when I wrote that response. But thank you MikeG for the osha reference, there's a good amount of information on there. I think I will get rid of it though. Thanks to those that were helpful.

Sigowner · April 25, 2012, 01:07 PM

I will remember your useless comment the next time you ask a question. Perhaps you should be more specific as to what you really want when you ask a question so those who have information, especially information that could even be labeled as life saving, will understand you want death certificates. If you think that OSHA and any other government agency has ALL the info or actually share that info that's just not reality.....it's no different than drugs that are placed on the market and then after enough people die they figure out something should be done about it. Those of us who did not provide statistical data were simply attempting to help you avoid a possible bad situation.....but hey.....play with cad and have a ball!

studman5578 · April 26, 2012, 01:03 PM

I simply thanked the people who gave me input that helped me to relate the risks of cadmium to those I'm more familiar with. Casters, of all people, should have an appreciation for facts and numbers. How many times have you had somebody look at you like you're crazy when you tell them you cast your own lead bullets and then go shoot them out of guns? I understand words of caution but I'm frustrated with people talking about things they haven't had any experience with.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate people offering information to help me out. I am sorry if you took what I said as directed at you, or that I was ungrateful for your input. I spoke in haste, but I was a bit upset after reading the "some just have to pee on the electric fence anyway" comment. I don't enjoy having my intelligence insulted.

**Mal H** · April 26, 2012, 01:15 PM

There isn't much point in keeping this open since studman5578 has his answer.

Quote:

I think I will get rid of it though.

Please find a safe way to do that. Do not put it in the trash.

April 4, 2012, 12:43 PM	#1
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	Cadmium Has anybody tried alloying cadmium with lead? I imagine that its not a common thing that many people have but I recently acquired almost 100 lbs of it and am interested in its properties. I read on a patent article from the '20s that a .8 wt% alloy of Cd-Pb will yield same hardness as 3% Sn-Pb. Any personal experiences? Thanks __________________ Rev 5:13 "To him who sits on the throne and the Lamb be praise honor and glory and power, for ever and ever"

April 5, 2012, 07:07 AM	#4
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	So I initially thought the same so I did some research. Here's what I found: http://dge.stanford.edu/SCOPE/SCOPE_...ter6_53-68.pdf I didn't read it 100% but I read a fair portion and from what I read, this article agrees with the claims from the people that gave it to me that Cd poses no additional risks than Pb. It does affect the body in other ways, but generally it is similar. I will investigate the article's mentioned "cancer" risk further. Also, keep in mind that the Cd that I have is in brick form, similar to lead, so no chemical processing is required. My ordinary casting procedures of HEPA respirators would still be employed when/if I decide to test this stuff out. The fact that Cd shares an atomic group with Zn may result in poor castibility, but I think that because the metals are in neutral metal form, being in the same column on the periodic table wouldn't have much of an affect because the columns are based on the valence electrons of a given element. __________________ Rev 5:13 "To him who sits on the throne and the Lamb be praise honor and glory and power, for ever and ever"

April 10, 2012, 01:40 PM	#8
hornetguy Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2011 Location: on the north side of DFW Posts: 970	It sounds to me like you've already decided you have to try it, and are just wanting some sort of agreement from the forum. You aren't going to get it. Cadmium is known to be highly toxic. There is nothing to be gained from experimenting with it. Don't be stupid. Sell the cadmium to someone that can use it in a way it was intended to be used, and buy some lead/tin/antimony alloy and be done with it. Don't be the fool that just HAS to pee on the electric fence, as mentioned earlier. __________________ I always felt that if I got to the point where I thought it was time to bury my firearms, it was actually time to pick them up..

April 25, 2012, 11:12 AM	#12
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	I have not 'made up my mind' to use cadmium already, I was bringing up the idea and wanted to see if there was ACTUAL experience of people using it. People just talking about here-say and what they assume about a topic is useless to me, so thanks to those who actually gave me numbers and citations. In regards, to 'cherry picking' the scientific articles, I was having a difficult time finding credible articles that provided information about exposure and health effects, and that was the best I had when I wrote that response. But thank you MikeG for the osha reference, there's a good amount of information on there. I think I will get rid of it though. Thanks to those that were helpful. __________________ Rev 5:13 "To him who sits on the throne and the Lamb be praise honor and glory and power, for ever and ever"

April 26, 2012, 01:03 PM	#14
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	I simply thanked the people who gave me input that helped me to relate the risks of cadmium to those I'm more familiar with. Casters, of all people, should have an appreciation for facts and numbers. How many times have you had somebody look at you like you're crazy when you tell them you cast your own lead bullets and then go shoot them out of guns? I understand words of caution but I'm frustrated with people talking about things they haven't had any experience with. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate people offering information to help me out. I am sorry if you took what I said as directed at you, or that I was ungrateful for your input. I spoke in haste, but I was a bit upset after reading the "some just have to pee on the electric fence anyway" comment. I don't enjoy having my intelligence insulted. __________________ Rev 5:13 "To him who sits on the throne and the Lamb be praise honor and glory and power, for ever and ever"

April 4, 2012, 07:34 PM	#2
MikeG Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2002 Location: Falcon Colorado Posts: 256	As a word of caution, cadmium is highly toxic. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/cadmium/ Heating cadmium with lead strikes me as a particularly bad idea.

April 5, 2012, 01:34 AM	#3
darkroommike Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2011 Location: western Iowa Posts: 205	Stay away from that stuff, not only is the dust toxic, but the fumes are toxic (ask any welder!) and you risk contaminating a whole bunch of lead. Cadmium is also closely "related" to zinc and may (or may not) ruin a batch of alloy in the same way that zinc would. I'm not a chemist. It's probably worth selling to a salvage yard. Note that a lot of old school processes that used to use cadmium (photo paper and bright finished bolts in example) went crazy getting the cadmium out a while back from environmental concerns in much the same way they shunned mercury, selenium and strontium.

April 9, 2012, 06:42 AM	#5
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	Some people learn by instruction, some learn by observation, some just have to pee on the electric fence anyway. Goat

April 9, 2012, 11:23 PM	#6
MikeG Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2002 Location: Falcon Colorado Posts: 256	HEPA respirators won't protect you. Cadmium can be absorbed through the skin. Cherry picking scientific papers won't protect you either. I've seen other sources that state cadmium is ten times more toxic as lead or mercury. Worse, it will contaminate your home or wherever you try to cast with it and put others at risk. I see a hospital and EPA superfund site in your future.

April 9, 2012, 11:54 PM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Let's see what the folks who have the most to gain from Cd use and sales have to say about it: "The International Cadmium Association" http://www.cadmium.org/pg_n.php?id_menu=5 It is a toxic substance no matter what the claims are of the people who gave it to you.

April 10, 2012, 04:50 PM	#9
Sigowner Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 77	I don't want to hit this too hard because you've already received many warnings re cad. I can tell you from first hand observation in a small Oklahoma town called Blackwell that cad is carcinogenic and one of the worst heavy metals there is. The incidence of cancer and cancer plus other respiratory related diseases and deaths was significantly above the national average for all the diseases and I assure you that a 400 foot smoke stack is not the norm just for smelting zinc. American Metals Climax was forced to shut down by the EPA and the entire area was placed on the mega spill list. There continue to be issue because of the leakage into ground water.....and that is now 75 years after operations began!

April 12, 2012, 07:38 AM	#10
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	It has been said for half a century not to use battery lead, because they use cadmium in battery alloy, and that "cadmium in the alloy will ruin the lead for casting." Sorry I can't give you a citation. Let me repeat the warnings that cadmium is going to mess you up physically to the point of leaving you paralyzed or dead if you use it long enough. last but not least, if anyone finds out that you have deliberately loaded cadmium into lead and scattered it around the landscape, you may be facing federal prosecution for spreading toxic heavy metal compounds. The owners of the range may sue you for having put federally regulated toxic metals into the soil. The entire town of picher, oklahoma, was bought out by the EPA, and torn down because of lead and zinc contamination of the soil, and cadmium in the aquifer. Tar creek is so toxic that people have died just by peeing into the water. Seriously. If you are found by the feds to have created ammo and fired that ammo, releasing cadmium into the atmosphere and land, you WILL be in deep crap. you don't have the necessary papers to do so. You will maybe pay fines, go to federal prison, and have to pay for remediation of contaminated lands. This is what happens in cases like that. Many people have gone through this exact thing for dumping asbestos building materials.

April 12, 2012, 09:45 PM	#11
Axelwik Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2012 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 436	According to the World Health Organization the acceptable weekly exposure to cadmium is 7 parts per BILLION. That's pretty small - inhale one good whiff and you'll probably exceed that by a couple orders of magnitude.

April 25, 2012, 01:07 PM	#13
Sigowner Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 77	I will remember your useless comment the next time you ask a question. Perhaps you should be more specific as to what you really want when you ask a question so those who have information, especially information that could even be labeled as life saving, will understand you want death certificates. If you think that OSHA and any other government agency has ALL the info or actually share that info that's just not reality.....it's no different than drugs that are placed on the market and then after enough people die they figure out something should be done about it. Those of us who did not provide statistical data were simply attempting to help you avoid a possible bad situation.....but hey.....play with cad and have a ball!