Could use a hand from someone with quick load

Nosler guy · January 25, 2017, 04:07 AM

I am in need of a starting load of titegroup and a .243 win with 70 gn bullets, 7 rem mag with 160 gn bullets, and 300 Wm with 150 gn bullets. I'd be much obliged for any one, or all 3 of those. Email or pm if you prefer.

This is simply for fire forming brass, both new and fl sized, to save wear on the leade and not burn up rifle powder unnecessarily. Unfortunately I haven't been able to justify purchasing Ql yet.

*DISCLAIMER* #1 I have used more than a few pounds of this powder, 4.8 through 12 grains at a time (thousands of rounds down range) in pistols, sport rifles and a 308. #2 yes I know of other methods using cornmeal or other types of dookie butter but I get a pile of free bullets so I'd rather not clean up after that mess. #3 not to be nasty here but I'd really prefer not to hear all about how ff brass and neck sizing don't do anything positive because I know that they do. I've seen the differences on a strain gauge and with accuracy and velocity in all of my rifles. Thanks LG.

ShootistPRS · January 26, 2017, 04:23 PM

Fire forming is best done with a "normal" charge of powder and a bullet. If you don't have scrap or surplus bullets then get some cheap bullets to use for fire forming. The old way of using a fast burning pistol powder and some wadding has long since passed.

**Unclenick** · January 26, 2017, 06:33 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity."
Homer Powley

Nosler guy,

You should twist your own arm and get QL. The education it gives you is justification enough.

Awhile back I was fireforming with Trail Boss and recommending it to others until a few board members said it wasn't successful for them. But I've had it work, and all I can think is the dynamics of difference in bullet mass was the culprit. I want to research it a little more.

So, what I did here is assume that the 100% loads of Trail Boss are right on the dividing line between succeeding and not succeeding, and I matched that pressure with Tightgroup in QuickLOAD thinking that, being quicker, Tightgroup may raise pressure fast enough to overcome the dynamics issues. These pressures were in the 33,000-36,000 psi range in QuickLOAD's estimation (it is and estimate only in this or any interior ballistics software for the reason Homer Powley described). If this load level doesn't do it, moving it up a few more grains may do it. The upper pressures are about 10-12 kpsi higher. These are still not exceeding the bottom of the minimum load range in each case, but because these are low volume charges in the 30-40% fill range and charges in that loading density range can produce very erratic pressures, you use them at your own risk, as mentioned above. Old school or not, I would at least put a tuft of polyester or a disc of paper over the powder and keep the cartridges upright from loading bench to range and handle them carefully so as to prevent the powder shifting away from the flash hole to where it lays horizontal, allowing the primer to light that whole broad surface at once. I would not use magnum primers for any of these loads.

.243, 70 Nosler BT seated 0.243" into case (2.532" COL):
13 grains TG. Note that this is very close to the pressure the same amount of Bullseye should produce. If you have to go over 16 grains, something is off.

7 mm RM 160 grain Nosler Accubond seated 0.533" into case (3.29 COL):
18.5 grains TG. If you need over 22.5 grains, something is off.

300 WM has significant variation in the case capacities made. Norma has separate case weight based loads for it in their data book, and QuickLOAD lists different makes of case as if they were separate cartridges. The lowest capacity are Tula and Remington cases, and current Norma production is highest. Not knowing what you have, I used both:

300 WM Tula Case, Nosler BT seated to 3.340" COL:
20 gr. TG, If you need over 25 grains, something is off.

300 WM Norma Case, Nosler BT seated to 3.340" COL:
22 gr. TG, If you need over 27 grains, something is off.

Nosler guy · January 30, 2017, 01:55 AM

Uncle Nick sir. you always come through, and with a great deal of knowledge. Thank you very much. I've been fairly successful using 11 gr. In a .308 and getting consistent case expansion and good case lockup as well. But as with most oddball tinkering I expect there to be some inconsistencies, especially with expansion variables.

**Unclenick** · January 30, 2017, 09:27 AM

You're welcome. What bullet weight did you use in the .308?

Nosler guy · January 31, 2017, 03:14 AM

Hdy 150 sst. With fed brass that's a bit on the heavy side with the lowest case capacity compared to my other batches.

January 30, 2017, 01:55 AM	#4
Nosler guy Member Join Date: June 6, 2015 Location: Oregon Posts: 82	Mr. Reliable Uncle Nick sir. you always come through, and with a great deal of knowledge. Thank you very much. I've been fairly successful using 11 gr. In a .308 and getting consistent case expansion and good case lockup as well. But as with most oddball tinkering I expect there to be some inconsistencies, especially with expansion variables.

January 30, 2017, 09:27 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	You're welcome. What bullet weight did you use in the .308? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

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January 25, 2017, 04:07 AM	#1
Nosler guy Member Join Date: June 6, 2015 Location: Oregon Posts: 82	Could use a hand from someone with quick load I am in need of a starting load of titegroup and a .243 win with 70 gn bullets, 7 rem mag with 160 gn bullets, and 300 Wm with 150 gn bullets. I'd be much obliged for any one, or all 3 of those. Email or pm if you prefer. This is simply for fire forming brass, both new and fl sized, to save wear on the leade and not burn up rifle powder unnecessarily. Unfortunately I haven't been able to justify purchasing Ql yet. DISCLAIMER #1 I have used more than a few pounds of this powder, 4.8 through 12 grains at a time (thousands of rounds down range) in pistols, sport rifles and a 308. #2 yes I know of other methods using cornmeal or other types of dookie butter but I get a pile of free bullets so I'd rather not clean up after that mess. #3 not to be nasty here but I'd really prefer not to hear all about how ff brass and neck sizing don't do anything positive because I know that they do. I've seen the differences on a strain gauge and with accuracy and velocity in all of my rifles. Thanks LG.

January 26, 2017, 04:23 PM	#2
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Fire forming is best done with a "normal" charge of powder and a bullet. If you don't have scrap or surplus bullets then get some cheap bullets to use for fire forming. The old way of using a fast burning pistol powder and some wadding has long since passed.

January 26, 2017, 06:33 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. "First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley Nosler guy, You should twist your own arm and get QL. The education it gives you is justification enough. Awhile back I was fireforming with Trail Boss and recommending it to others until a few board members said it wasn't successful for them. But I've had it work, and all I can think is the dynamics of difference in bullet mass was the culprit. I want to research it a little more. So, what I did here is assume that the 100% loads of Trail Boss are right on the dividing line between succeeding and not succeeding, and I matched that pressure with Tightgroup in QuickLOAD thinking that, being quicker, Tightgroup may raise pressure fast enough to overcome the dynamics issues. These pressures were in the 33,000-36,000 psi range in QuickLOAD's estimation (it is and estimate only in this or any interior ballistics software for the reason Homer Powley described). If this load level doesn't do it, moving it up a few more grains may do it. The upper pressures are about 10-12 kpsi higher. These are still not exceeding the bottom of the minimum load range in each case, but because these are low volume charges in the 30-40% fill range and charges in that loading density range can produce very erratic pressures, you use them at your own risk, as mentioned above. Old school or not, I would at least put a tuft of polyester or a disc of paper over the powder and keep the cartridges upright from loading bench to range and handle them carefully so as to prevent the powder shifting away from the flash hole to where it lays horizontal, allowing the primer to light that whole broad surface at once. I would not use magnum primers for any of these loads. .243, 70 Nosler BT seated 0.243" into case (2.532" COL): 13 grains TG. Note that this is very close to the pressure the same amount of Bullseye should produce. If you have to go over 16 grains, something is off. 7 mm RM 160 grain Nosler Accubond seated 0.533" into case (3.29 COL): 18.5 grains TG. If you need over 22.5 grains, something is off. 300 WM has significant variation in the case capacities made. Norma has separate case weight based loads for it in their data book, and QuickLOAD lists different makes of case as if they were separate cartridges. The lowest capacity are Tula and Remington cases, and current Norma production is highest. Not knowing what you have, I used both: 300 WM Tula Case, Nosler BT seated to 3.340" COL: 20 gr. TG, If you need over 25 grains, something is off. 300 WM Norma Case, Nosler BT seated to 3.340" COL: 22 gr. TG, If you need over 27 grains, something is off. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 31, 2017, 03:14 AM	#6
Nosler guy Member Join Date: June 6, 2015 Location: Oregon Posts: 82	Hdy 150 sst. With fed brass that's a bit on the heavy side with the lowest case capacity compared to my other batches.