They want to poison wild hogs Texas

[stephen426]

Heck, if sodium nitrate works, it would preserve the meat for us! LOL Isn't that the stuff in beef jerky?

[Snyper]

Heck, if sodium nitrate works, it would preserve the meat for us! LOL Isn't that the stuff in beef jerky?

Sodium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrite are both used in seasoning and curing meats.
Neither would be dangerous to eat in hogs poisoned in that manner.

[Panfisher]

WHY A WARFARIN BAIT?
Low toxicity = decreased risk to non-targets
Readily available antidote = Vitamin K-1
Effective on hogs in low concentrations
Mostly metabolized or excreted within 48 hours of death

I copied the above from the KapUT Products website.

[Jim Watson]

And Hog Gone will tell you how great sodium nitrite is.

[Old Stony]

Any just how can a hog metabolize or excrete this after it's dead?

[Texas45]

Thallub
You say "shooting hogs from Helos is not really that expensive.
Huh Well if 600.00 an hr is "not that expensive" to you feel free to send me your windfall.

4 man R44 (3 passengers) thats still 200/person/hr.
Figure about 1/2 or so of that cover op cost of helo.

Know a guy running a belo hog service.



Yeah relative is a good word for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Art Eatman]

We need Tom Lehrer:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...f&action=click

[Snyper]

Any just how can a hog metabolize or excrete this after it's dead?

Digestion continues in the stomach as long as the body is warm enough, and with all the muscles relaxed there can be involuntary "excretions" from both ends.

Chemical reactions in the body don't all stop at the time of death.

[Old Stony]

Point well taken Snyper.....I would doubt that any of this could continue very long after a body lost internal temperature though. I guess just bloat could force excrement from the body.

[Art Eatman]

Wouldn't an autopsy be needed to determine just how much warfarin there would be in, say, a pound of the hog meat? Needed to determine the degree of toxicity?

How much of the meat would any one coyote or buzzard eat? Would that not be some indicator of post-death hazard?

[Double Naught Spy]

Keep in mind that coyotes and buzzards don't just eat meat. They also consume the fat and organs such as the liver which may have higher concentrations (or less).

[Snyper]

Wouldn't an autopsy be needed to determine just how much warfarin there would be in, say, a pound of the hog meat? Needed to determine the degree of toxicity?

How much of the meat would any one coyote or buzzard eat? Would that not be some indicator of post-death hazard?

That sort of testing is done before the FDA will approve a chemical for use as a pesticide.

This addresses your second question:

The state agriculture spokesman tells KXAN that the hog’s fatty tissues are dyed blue from the bait so anyone hunting the hogs would know it had ingested that much warfarin.

He says if the meat were ingested, a person would have to eat two pounds of wild hog liver to ingest as much warfarin as the low-end of a normal daily dose for a person that’s on warfarin for blood clot prevention

There would be less of the drug in the muscle tissues.

[Panfisher]

Maybe the coyotes would live longer due lowered blood pressure.

[Double Naught Spy]

Snyper, the Ag Commissioner has said a lot of things, not all of which seem to add up. The amount of safety of the product regarding wildlife seems exactly contrary to the need to have to regularly police up and bury the carcasses to keep other animals from ingesting Warfarin as stated in the EPA document and even Kaput's own directions, if you follow the tiny link to the correct page.

This is the same guy proclaiming a "hog apocalypse" but that could not ever happen unless the state sets out more than a million feeders and hires an army of people to run them.

Sid Miller is playing down the negatives as part of promoting a program that he fast-tracked, "fast-tracked" being his own words.

I have yet to see a single published toxity study on how much Warfarin is actually in the meat, fat, etc. in hogs.

-----

Panfisher, Warfarin does not lower blood pressure. It prevents clots, a problem most coyotes won't be having, LOL.

[rickyrick]

Coyotes eat poop too, seen them do it in the depths of winter many times. I don't know if that has any bearing, but others brought it up

[reynolds357]

Definitely would not hurt my feelings if it killed yotes too.

[JohnKSa]

He says if the meat were ingested, a person would have to eat two pounds of wild hog liver to ingest as much warfarin as the low-end of a normal daily dose for a person that’s on warfarin for blood clot prevention

Which sounds pretty safe but seems to clash with the information stating that carcasses should be buried so that they're at least 18" below the surface of the ground to prevent scavengers from getting at them.

[FrankenMauser]

That 18" requirement surprises me a bit.

Most State and Federal agencies require much deeper burials of game or livestock -- especially if it's known that they've been contaminated with certain drugs/chemicals.

From what I've seen, the minimum is usually 3 feet / 36 inches.
Though it seems excessive upon further consideration, the animal cited most often for that reasoning (in my experience) is the Bald Eagle.

(No, I can't cite a specific statue or line of code. It's simply what I've always seen, read, had to sign a promise to comply with, and been told when dealing with such things. Even my local landfill digs an eight-foot-deep pit every day for animal carcasses - roadkill or domestic. According to the guy that runs some equipment, they make sure there's 4 feet of fill on top of the highest carcass, because that's what's required for some kind of horse medication.)

Coyotes eat poop too, seen them do it in the depths of winter many times.

Yep.
I've never seen a breed of dog, wild or domestic, that doesn't eat poop, as long as it smells good to them at the time. And if it doesn't smell "good", then they roll in it, because they all seem to like smelling like horrible.



.

[thallub]

i kill a lot of wild hogs. The south end of our lease is currently littered with hog carcasses; it stinks to high heaven. Walked that place recently while still hunting. No carcass that i saw had been visited by scavengers. Maybe the coyotes won't tackle a big stinking hog carcass when young succulent pigs are available for the taking.

Couple months ago our vultures migrated somewhere south, perhaps in anticipation of Sid Miller's "hog apocalypse".

Slamfire posted a very good link about the consequences associated with the of killing of all the vultures in India.

[buck460XVR]

In my state, the DNR is very concerned about the eating of contaminated wild game. This includes possible lead poisoning from eating deer shot with bullets containing lead to the eating of fish from waters with naturally occurring mercury(any waters with dead wood or tannin stained). We get warnings and health advisories all the time. They also are very concerned about scavengers eating meat from animals shot with lead(we have a problem with Bald Eagles and lead poisoning) and otherwise contaminated. This would tend to make me think they and other states are not going to allow legal mass poisoning that would lead to a high risk to both humans and scavengers. This is not the late 1800s and early 1900s anymore. I'd guess there is already widespread illegal poisoning going on from landowners frustrated with hogs already. Happens around here for Wolves and Birds of prey all the time. Generally is only discovered when the neighbors dogs and cattle get sick too.

But...it is obvious that hunting, while controlling the problem in some areas, is not eliminating the problem, anywhere. In areas where access to hunters is limited, it is not doing much of anything. Something else need to be done when there is a high amount of economic impact and damage to the native flora. Other options need to be considered. I'd bet these options are being weighed and studied by folks with a better understanding and knowledge of the impact to human and non-targeted wildlife health, than most of us here.

[Double Naught Spy]

I'd bet these options are being weighed and studied by folks with a better understanding and knowledge of the impact to human and non-targeted wildlife health, than most of us here.

Doubt it. As Miller said, this was "fast-tracked." Said experts were not using Warfarin in tests there, but other, potentially better alternatives. Note that while Miller noted Warfarin had been used with success in Australia, it was not used with widespread success and is now not even allowed to be used there.

Did anybody else notice the fact that Texas Parks and Wildlife Department hasn't come forward with glowing statements about how happy they are this is being used? In fact, here is their statement attesting to the lack of knowledge surrounding the use of this product...

http://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/...ce/feral_hogs/

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) has received numerous inquiries regarding the recent announcement from the Texas Department of Agriculture that the Warfarin-based toxicant, Kaput, has been approved for feral hog control in Texas. TPWD has recognized for many years that feral hogs pose substantial risks due to the damage they cause to wildlife, lands, habitat and crops. While TPWD has supported and encouraged responsible feral hog control management practices, it has not yet evaluated the risks and impacts this toxicant may have on non-target species when used as a means to control feral hog populations. TPWD is in the process of requesting the research information utilized by the EPA in recently approving the use of Kaput as a feral hog toxicant. Once an assessment of the research on Kaput is completed, TPWD hopes to express its position on the risks the use of this toxicant may have on Texas wildlife.

So the primary government agency responsible for wildlife in Texas was not even part of the program involved in approving Warfarin.

[thallub]

So the primary government agency responsible for wildlife in Texas was not even part of the program involved in approving Warfarin.

Exactly.

Texas A&M has been working with a poison that uses sodium nitrite.

The department has been conducting its own research on a sodium nitrite product at its Kerr Wildlife Management area. It has filed for an experimental use permit from the EPA, and hopes to begin a large scale study by 2018. The TPWD study is to look at non-target species including vultures, raccoons, white-tailed deer and coyotes. Preliminary results are favorable.

Dr. James Kroll, Stephen F. Austin State University wildlife professor, who works with deer breeders and private landowners also voiced his concern about unintended impacts of Kaput.

“I am concerned for non-targets. I am willing to be convinced that they have a delivery system that excludes all non-targets. I hate pigs and support any effective and humane way of wiping them off the Earth in the wild,” Kroll said by email.

http://www.texasalloutdoors.com/Outd...d-pig-toxicant

[Snyper]

Which sounds pretty safe but seems to clash with the information stating that carcasses should be buried so that they're at least 18" below the surface of the ground to prevent scavengers from getting at them.

Most states have similar requirements for disposing of farm animals that die.
I suspect it's more precautionary then it is necessary.

[Snyper]

So the primary government agency responsible for wildlife in Texas was not even part of the program involved in approving Warfarin.

That's what the FDA does.
Approving a drug or pesticide isn't the same as managing wildlife.

[buck460XVR]

Here is the pdf.
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...6-20170103.pdf

Reading that I see it says......

On the basis of information furnished by the registrant, the above named pesticide is hereby registered
under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act.
Registration is in no way to be construed as an endorsement or recommendation of this product by the
Agency.

The data requirements for storage stability and corrosion characteristics (Guidelines 830.6317
and 830.6320) are not satisfied. A one year study is required to satisfy these data requirements.

Seems that folks are still studying it, and it is still a while off.

When I posted this...

I'd bet these options are being weighed and studied by folks with a better understanding and knowledge of the impact to human and non-targeted wildlife health, than most of us here.

You replied this...

Doubt it.

But then go on to post this...

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) has received numerous inquiries regarding the recent announcement from the Texas Department of Agriculture that the Warfarin-based toxicant, Kaput, has been approved for feral hog control in Texas. TPWD has recognized for many years that feral hogs pose substantial risks due to the damage they cause to wildlife, lands, habitat and crops. While TPWD has supported and encouraged responsible feral hog control management practices, it has not yet evaluated the risks and impacts this toxicant may have on non-target species when used as a means to control feral hog populations. TPWD is in the process of requesting the research information utilized by the EPA in recently approving the use of Kaput as a feral hog toxicant. Once an assessment of the research on Kaput is completed, TPWD hopes to express its position on the risks the use of this toxicant may have on Texas wildlife.

Seems a tad contradictory. This tells me folks that know more than most of us here, are still looking into the realistic application of it.

I'm not bashing or chastising anyone here. Folks are entitled to their opinion and I respect that, just as I hope they respect mine. But until I see someone's credentials that they actually know something about the products and how it will affect local wildlife and humans, I'll hold my judgement. Once I do see credentials of that sort, I will tend to believe them, over random internet posters.