What is the minimum rifle you would use?

[bamaranger]

I started my boy age 11, on deer w/ a .223, mainly cause he was recoil sensitive, due to his size. We shot .22lr alot, from support and field positions, and I then introduced him to the .223. bolt rifle. I picked a .223 62 gr bonded bullet. I coached him regularly on my 3D archery target on where to hit'em.
(tight behind the shoulder) Our hunts were limited to shooting house /green fields, very controlled conditions, picking the right opportunity. He killed 2 deer w/ that little rifle, 110 lb does. On one we got full penetratoin, the other was caught by the hide on the off side. Range was under 100 yds, and he had support to shoot from, and me coaching in his ear. Both ran no farther than deer hit w/ bigger calibers.

He's moved on to something bigger now, but w/ that prep and conditions, it can be done.

Its important to choose a premium bullet like a Partition or something bonded.

[James R. Burke]

Like I said prior for myself a .243 would be the min. Lets face it about everything has been taken with the .22lr, but do you really want to use that on a deer. Not me. Has said prior by many shot placement is key, or you leave them walk. That holds for whatever you are using caliber wise. I seen deer wounded with very big caliber rifles, and deer dropped with the small ones. There are way to many people that do not practice enough with what they are using. Take a few shots make sure it is on, and thats about it. You need the practice to be good, and that in turn makes you confident on your own skills. Has someone said bullet make is very important for what it is being used for. I reload, and my wife use's a .243. I would rather her be very good with that, then being worried about recoil from my 06. But that is the smallest I would go for deer with the correct bullet and load. I use a 100 grain Nosler Partition in hers, but there are a few other good ones out there. It holds together great, and expands just right. Last year her first year she shot at two, and got two. One buck double lung shot went about 30 yards, and fell her doe tag with a neck shot dropped right there. Before season mainly during the winter I load us up about 150 or so each. A month before season we go out about once a week shooting at differnt yards, and styles. Bench and free arm both. It is just fun to do, and you get very good. Of course I keep the riflles up on the cleaning. I am not saying everyone needs to shoot that much but alittle bit can go along ways. She knows her placement, and had let many walk because she new it was not a good shot to take. She can shoot my 06, but is much better with the .243 being not worried about the recoil. This is just me, and my thoughts on the matter. I hope you all get a nice big buck!

[m.p.driver]

6.5 Swedish, if not that then a .308 or 30-06.I dont like tracking a wounded deer over hill and dale.You have to show the animal some respect,a 5.56 wont put down a human male reliably so why expect it to put down an adrenaline fueled deer.

[HydrostatiK]

223 is a very effective deer cartridge. For deer hunting recreationally, i wouldnt use anything less than a 22 hornet or 223. If i was starving, i'd have no problem with a 10/22.

[bacardisteve]

Me personally i would use no less than a 243. I understand a 223 with proper bullets will do the job but i just cant trust a 223 for whitetail. Ive personnaly
witnessed critters of the two legged variety that took more then a few 5.56 to stop. granted that was fmj but it changes your mind on what a 62 grain projectile can do.

[infntryblu]

As a kid I was only allowed to use a single shot 22. I had better make a good shot, and a clean kill. Now that I'm older, nothing less than a 6mm(243) just in case of a poor hit. My current rifle choice is a Savage 99 in 300 Savage. I like close in shots, but in open country I will take a steady shot out to 150. My preference is a close in shot with a pistol. Favorites, 44 Automag, A contender in 7 TCU, 357 maxi, or 357/44 Bain and Davis. Don't do it much anymore though.

[Todd1700]

For me the minimum would be the 243 as well. Not because I don't believe that smaller cartridges will kill a deer. I know they will. Keep the range reasonable and wait for good broadside shots, etc, etc. But why push things right to the absolute minimum brink or use a caliber that handicaps you in any way. I bow hunt a lot and when I do I am content to wait for perfect shot angles. That's just part of the bow hunting challenge. But when I take a rifle in the woods I don't want to have to be so picky with my shot angles. With that in mind I just don't like using bullets that weigh less than 100 grains on deer sized animals. I just don't trust 55 to 60 grain bullets to always get through a shoulder bone when called apon to do so or consistently penetrate deep enough on sharp angled shots. Not saying they won't do it sometimes or maybe even most times but failing even 1 out of 20 times is too much.

My personal favorite for Alabama deer is a 7mm-08 and a 140 grain bullet.

[cubesmoothie]

the minimum i'd use is a 22lr, if it were legal. 2 quick shots to the head with a 10/22 should fell just about anything if you use stingers. Thats the min i'd use but i'd rather use a .223, a mini14 or for hunting in some of the land up here thats really wide open, a bolt action 30-06.

[MATTUSMC]

.243 w/ Nosler Partitions for Whitetails in Michigan

.308 w/ Nosler Partitions for Elk in Colorado, Mule Deer in Wyoming, and Black Bear in Michigan and Canada.

Just like several other posters have said, bullet selection and shot placement mean more than the actual caliber... I have seen several larger animals fall to the .22lr and .22 Mag...

[mtnman]

.17 rem centerfire would be the minimum. Although a 22 LR will do the job.

[oneounceload]

When I lived in NV, ANY 22 centerfire was perfectly legal and I know several folks who used a 223 quite successfully. One individual used a TC Contender in 22 K-Hornet - only took head shots and no further than 75-100 yards - worked every time

Depends on the skill of the shooter. When I lived in CO, there a LOT of out of state folks coming to hunt elk who used to use 243 and 257 Roberts, but bought the huge belted magnum thinking they could then shoot at 600 yards without any prior practice, let alone proficiency.....Point being - a 223 in the hands of a skilled shooter is better than a behemoth magnum in the hands of someone unskilled in its use

[jakec2789]

your friend is wrong unless he is talking about poachers. most of the states on the east coast have a minimum caliber law of .243. i know sc, nc, and va do. i'm pretty sure fl does too.

[SeekHer]

Firstly, hunting with an AR15 does not mean it is a .223/5.56mm round...

Secondly, in the majority of states and provinces, the use of ANY .22 cal is illegal, and rightly so, for the taking of game animals--that does not include predators, varmints, fur bearers or rodents...but deer/antelope and larger...They wound far more then they kill and really shouldn't be allowed, even for puny Texas Whitetails...The only exception that I can see might be for West Coast Blacktail/Coues deer as they really are tiny...

From Colorado Big Game Hunting regulations, page 7

LEGAL HUNTING METHODS
1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn
and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at
100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or fur bearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk
seasons W of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small game license is required.

You come up to our lodge and we state that for deer the minimum is .25/6.5mm, caribou .284/7mm (because of the longer shots) and also for black bear and moose is .323/8mm or a good .300 mag and we care naught what type of rifle action fires it...If you want to use a .257 Weatherby or a .260 Rem on caribou that's fine but not for moose--there we'll allow 7mm Rem mag as the very lowest cartridge but only with very knowledgeable hunters...

[FrankenMauser]

You come up to our lodge and we state that for deer the minimum is .25/6.5mm, caribou .284/7mm (because of the longer shots) and also for black bear and moose is .323/8mm or a good .300 mag and we care naught what type of rifle action fires it...If you want to use a .257 Weatherby or a .260 Rem on caribou that's fine but not for moose--there we'll allow 7mm Rem mag as the very lowest cartridge but only with very knowledgeable hunters...

I don't mean to offend, but that list of cartridges and arbitrary exceptions really sounds like a collective case of Magnumitis.

'We'll allow any city dweller with a giant cannon to sling lead at every animal on the mountain, but an experienced hunter with the only 7x57mm or .243 Win he's ever owned won't be allowed near us'....

[mtnman]

you dont allow a .270 for caribou that s crazy.

[SeekHer]

mtnman -- you don’t allow a .270 for caribou that’s crazy.

Yes, it would be if it were true but if you can use, like I stated, a .257 or .260 then why not a .6.8mm...Those are guidelines and some flexibility is of course built in except we do not allow 6mm/.243 for moose--ever, by anyone and are extremely reluctant for deer or caribou--we've seen too many well placed shots walk away...

We’ve all been friends for nearly 60 years and all started shooting and hunting at roughly the same ages, five and seven, so between us we have a cumulative of 260+ years of hunting and all of us on at least two continents, two on three and two on four and one about to be five when he leaves for Australia for a water buffalo hunt although between us we've hunted all six…

Then we've only had three .270s up here is the twelve years we've been open and five .30/06...That family of cartridges albeit very popular in the states aren’t at the top of the list in other countries, they’re there just not at the top…In Europe the most popular now in bolt guns is 7x64mm and would probably outsell the .30/06 by a factor of 70:1 and the .270 by 150:1

Since 65% to 75% of our business is from Europe and Asia we inform them of what’s local to them not to us although we have lots a partially finished boxes of shells left by other hunters to cover just about any lost baggage problems and a really good gun store in the town where the float planes are that stocks for us a lot of the Euro calibres if we don’t happen to have them…

[SeekHer]

FrankenMauser -- I don't mean to offend, but that list of cartridges and arbitrary exceptions really sounds like a collective case of Magnumitis.

'We'll allow any city dweller with a giant cannon to sling lead at every animal on the mountain, but an experienced hunter with the only 7x57mm or .243 Win he's ever owned won't be allowed near us'....

No offence taken but yes you come up with a .243 for deer and you'll be using one of our spare guns...You see we're very lazy guides, we don't like tracking wounded animals and most of our clients are lazy as well and they don't like going after their wounded animals either and rest assured they do...

Yes, I’m very well aware that placement is the most important thing and a small bullet placed properly will beat a larger bullet improperly placed but a near fatal shot with a larger, heavier, wider bullet will destroy more tissue and organs, make a bigger wound channel to drain out the animal and making tracking easier where a smaller calibre won't...Also, our whitetail deer dress out at 300+ lbs...It is not magnumitis as most aren’t magnum calibres/cartridges but we definitely prefer a wider bullet going down range just maybe not super fast…but we much prefer that it be .308 magnum then .308 regular, primarily because of the heavier bullet that can be pushed and the velocity/energy of course…The longer, heavier bullets also beat the wind a lot better and here on the tundra, it always blows and 300M/340 yd shots on caribou are very common (83%) as that’s the closest we can stalk before spooking the herd…

First you should know our demographics...20% are N. American, 10 -15% S. American, 20 - 25% Asian and 45 -55% European depending on year...We have many hunters who have taken game on two, three, even five continents (never six yet) and had five hunters (four men and one woman) who are trying to get all the world's antlered/horned game animals with a 7mm Rem Mag like three people have done so already and they are the ones who use it,

So, yes, call it elitism but someone who has taken 30, 40 or more species of game gets a bit of a pass over Joe Blow with his trusty 7x57mm and three Whitetails to his credit wants to use that same gun on a moose...caribou is fine, deer is OK, moose no…Caribou are actually very easy to kill--they aren’t very big animals, long legs for the snow but small body to conserve heat, it’s just that they spook easily and when the closest tree is 300 km south, sneaking up is hard to do so long shots are the norm…

We tell all the hunters that when coming to camp expect to shoot five cartridges (per gun)...We take them out to a standing bench rest and the first two are fired at 25M to check that the settings didn't get banged up in transit and then the next three at 100M and the POI/POA are noted...It also gives us a fairly good evaluation of their shooting skills and whether they are familiar with their rifles, flinching etc...

Most of our hunters come with 9.3x(62, 64 & 72) followed by 7x(55, 57 & 65), 8x(57 & 68) and 6.5x(55, 57 & 65)...We have had very few .30/06 (5) and .270 (3) guns, a few more .308 (4), .260 (5) and 7mm-08 (5)...The most popular chamberings/calibres of N.A. guns was the .280 Rem Ack Imp (12), .338/06 (6), .257 Roberts (8) & Weatherby (5), .300 Win mag (20) and H&H (6), .338 Win mag (12) and .340 Weatherby (5), .45/70 (7)...

For deer and bear in heavy bush situations we've had more .30/30 (and .35 Rem (10 of each)) then all the .30/06 and .270s combined...In ten years we've had three different hunters come up with .348 Win, three with a .358 Win (Savage Model 99 and two BLR), another with a .444 Marlin and lastly a .38/40 in lever guns for bush hunting as the farthest shot will be 64M/70yds to maybe 73M/80 yds away...Combined, during the course of the year, we see more single shots (break action & falling block), doubles (O/U or SxS) and drillings (16 bore and 9.3x72R or 8x57 JRS) then bolt actions and as a rimmed cartridge we saw the .303 British (7.7x57R) in two Stalking and two double rifles although half of the guides use them (a sporterized them) as back up guns to their clients...There have been three semi autos (all Browning BARs (2 .30/06 and 1 .270)), three T/C Encore/Contender single shot (1 .30/06 and 1 .270 and 1 .280), one Ballard (.40/65) and two Sharps (.45/70) and zero pump action…

You want to use a .270 Win/6.8mm on deer and caribou fine, no problem but we'd suggest you try something a little heavier bullet size wise (200 gr), preferably with more shoulder and a higher B.C. for moose, no actually we'd insist...545 kg/1,200 lbs is a small moose and probably wouldn't get shot...Yes, our hunters are mostly (95%) trophy hunters but that doesn't mean they wouldn't take the meat back with them if their respective countries would allow them to do so but most won't allow any meat in...although all of the meat does not go to waste--that which isn't consumed in camp for meals (you’re eating the clients before yours as we age our meat although the liver and heart will be fresh) is donated to local groups like "Hunter's Feeding the Hungry"...

The hunter hauls the meat out with them, it gets weighed, they are charged for flying the meat out in the float plane, charged with the butchering, cutting and wrapping bill and then it gets donated to one of, if not all, the various charities and the hunter is given a tax donation certificate for the freight, butchering and a fair price for the value of the meat (retail) that they can use as a charitable contribution on their income tax and since these are ALL corporate retreats the whole time is a tax deduction…

We deal with a total of five divisions of three Fortune Five Hundred Companies (non competitive lines) which two of my four partners (and we’ve all been friends since diapers) are senior VPs within and why we’ve started the business gotten the business…We deal only with those companies and only those companies, we have zero outside business, zero advertising, zero participation at any Hunter’s Shows and zero vacancies until 2019

[Todd1700]

There is no animal mentioned in that overly long post that a 270 or a 30-06 won't kill just as dead as any other caliber you mentioned. There are no degrees of dead, Only dead. If you can shoot worth a d@mn then a non-magnum caliber is enough. If you can't shoot then the biggest caliber on earth that can be fired from a hand held rifle will not compensate one bit for that lack of skill. In fact it will probably exacerbate the poor shooting habits due to the increasd recoil.

A caribou is not that tough an animal. Neither are deer. I'd way rather guide a guy with a 243 that he could drive tacks with it than some rich fancy boy and his new 375 H&H magnum that couldn't hit a barn door.

Sounds like you cater to the magnumitis fancy boys. To each his own. After listening to you talk I wouldn't pay ten cents to walk across the street to hunt with you.

Nothing worse than an overly opinionated j@##### that is also oblivious to the fact that they are dead wrong.

[hogdogs]

we've seen too many well placed shots walk away...

Make Kevlar vests illegal for deer to wear and this issue will vanish!

Deer, when a well placed bullet hits, die quite quick. Only exception may be lack of penetration or over penetration with no expansion.

No offence taken but yes you come up with a .243 for deer and you'll be using one of our spare guns...You see we're very lazy guides, we don't like tracking wounded animals and most of our clients are lazy as well and they don't like going after their wounded animals either and rest assured they do...

So these arbitrary rules have little to do with ya'lls knowledge of ballistics, shot placement or animal biology... It really comes down to laziness...
Jeez had you called a spade a spade from the git-go we could have saved 10 minutes of reading
Brent

[phil mcwilliam]

I've used a "know all" guide before, & they get zero repeat business from me. .243 is legal minimum for red deer where I live, & drops them with ease.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

If a 324fps arrow will harvest most game in the US, then just about most calibers will work.

Without commenting on the rest of the post because I pretty much agree with your general assessment of the smaller calibers working on deer in the right hands. But the quoted statement above just makes me scratch my head. An arrow due to it's weight and cutting properties with a good broad head attached, create wounds under a whole different set of parameters than a light super sonic traveling rifle projectile.

[riggins_83]

For deer at least a 338 win mag, for big game a 458 lott. I kid.

I personally like 30-06 and it's all I use for medium to large game hunting. I guess I don't see a reason to go with something smaller (unless you're a small person or are only hunting smaller game like deer).

If I was only hunting deer I'd gladly do that with a 243 or a 30-30 if in a heavy brush area. 7MM Rem mag has some good load options with light bullets for small game, too.

[FrankenMauser]

SeekHer -
I appreciate the reply.
I was not infering that the 7x57mm or .243 Win hunter would have, "three Whitetails to their credit". I intended for that statement to be about hunters that have owned only one or two rifles, their entire lives. They know it, inside and out. They've taken more feed animals with the rifle, than the corporate weenies' trophy animals will ever amount to.

When dinner is on the line, rather than just bragging rights... People learn to shoot better. (Often, with "inferior" cartridges.)

Again; I appreciate the reply.
However, you quickly regressed from an explanation, into unwanted flaunting of the elitist atmosphere you surround yourself with.

Fortune Five Hundred.
Meat donations.
Tax deductions.
Corporate partnerships.
Six Continents.
What does any of that have to do with the particular animals in question?


I can shoot an Eland with a .416 Rigby, and add a 'continent' to my repertoire.
What good does it do, in teaching me how to shoot a caribou, though?


I've been on ground squirrel hunts with a .375 H&H, .300 Win Mag, .458 Win, and .416 Rigby.
I've been on Elk hunts with a .22 Hornet, .220 Swift, .223 Rem, .38 Special, .44 Special, 10mm Auto, and 7.62x39.
I've hunted Florida Coastal Whitetail with a .380 Auto, 8x57JS Mauser, and an Atlatl.

None of those experiences translate into more knowledge of how to shoot a Mongolian Brown Bear (for another 'continent').
---

Back to the 'meat' of the discussion.
For me, the minimum cartridge depends largely upon the intended purpose. A good example, is the .22 Hornet + Elk. It was taken on the hunt for opportune spine shots, from camp. (Cold, rainy, nasty trip. We spent a lot of time under a tarp, next to the fire.)
The .380 Auto reference works, too. For those tiny little things, in Florida; I really believed that .380 Auto was enough gun for the job (and it was actually legal). I never got to use it, but wouldn't have felt under gunned.

I typically drag my .270 Win around, as my go-to big game rifle. 130gr bullets are prefered, but the actual choice can vary, depending upon the animal. For Pronghorn, I have no problem with a Core-Lokt. For Elk, I step up to something with more controlled expansion, though.
As with most multi-rifle hunters; I switch it up, if I need a heavier projectile. I have no reservations about throwing 174-200gr pills in my 7.62x54R, loved 190-200gr fodder in my 8x57(when it still existed), and can't wait to launch 250-310gr stuff from my future .35 Whelen.
On the flip side, my .243 Win, 7.62x39mm, and .220 Swift aren't strangers to Elk, Deer, and Antelope camps.

It's all about the bullet, the intended purpose, and knowing the limitations of the rifle/bullet/shooter combination.

[RangerHAAF]

I have never liked the .223 round to begin with, not in the army and not in the field, hunting deer. It's accurate enough at long range but up close it just doesn't appeal to me. I would never hunt and shoot a deer with it.

[N.H. Yankee]

I have hunted the east coast ( NH ) my whole life and have never seen anyone use an AR15. Maybe in Mass, RI and Conn, but never seen it here. I wouldn't use less than a 243, my grandson has shot deer with my reloads using a nosler partiton and it really drops them, he has also used the Hornady 100gr interlock with excellent results. While the 223 may kill deer under the right circumstances it isn't a recommended caliber.