Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

I did speak for myself, IME = In My Experience
I had a LCP and a P3AT 380 I did shoot them in comparison with Kahr PM9 and Glock 43, the 9mm were easier to shoot quickly & accurately.
PM9 is a pocket pistol.
Condescending, like your reply?

Lol, read your own post. First of all you said Kahr 380. If you think a Kahr 380 has a lot of recoil then, I have to wonder if you have ever shot one and actually compared it to the Kahr Cm 9. Big difference. I see you then then omit the CW 380 and only compare the LCP and Keltec. Well I can understand this, but real facts even though both are very snappy, they actually do not have as much recoil. And both are unpleasant to shoot.

Here are some facts. The Kahr CW 380 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, the CM 9 not so.

Kahr CW380 has a 5.39 recoil factor
Kahr CM 9mm 8.26
using a use a public domain Standard Free Recoil equation to calculate recoil.

[briandg]

An old guy once saw my .380 bodyguard and he remarked 'oh, that must hurt! It's so darned small!' I explained that the .380 didn't have a whole lot of recoil, small bullet, slow bullet, he'd never fired one. I imagine that it truly could hurt if you have the wrong kind of hands, or if your hands are just sensitive to recoil.

He, on the other hand, worked at an all night car wash and he kept a .38 special loaded with *P 158 hollow points at his desk. He was army, and almost certainly shot the 1911. He knows all about recoil.

Until a few different ones are tested nobody can really know what it will be like.

Hey, does anyone here own a .500 S&W magnum? They must be really cool. I found an empty shell once, and I keep my pencils in it next to my reloading bench. There's a page somewhere on the internet, a guy referred to the thing as 'stout, but manageable." In the video, he lost his grip several times, his left hand pulled loose.

If he calls that manageable, fine and dandy. He's probably got some pretty weird ideas about lots of things.

[1MoreFord]

Originally Posted by MoArk Willy

Don't buy your daughter a gun...take her to a shooting range and let her find one she is comfortable with, one she will practice with and one she is happy with. Let her pick it out and get the one she wants. And yes a .380 is perfect for some people....like a .45 is, a 9mm is or a .357 magnum. It depends on the shooter way more than the gun itself.
If she won't practice with it it really doesn't matter what you buy her. May as well be a rock.
Does she want a gun or is this daddys idea?

This advice Cannot be stressed enough. Don't buy guns for wives or daughters without their input. Let them make their choice.

[Cosmodragoon]

Is this standard not met by quality .380 ammunition?

Here is an excellent resource for ammo tests in gel. Take a look at the .380 section and compare it to 9mm (etc).

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...allistic-tests

Gel is a good standard medium for comparing ammo and we can learn a lot from it. However, it isn't the same as animals or bad guys. Unlike uniform gel, there are different tissues, organs, bones, etc. and a host of other factors involved. So while you don't get the whole story from gel, meeting the FBI standard in gel should at least be helpful in getting to the right place for average-sized humans who mean you harm.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Cosmodragoon

Here is an excellent resource for ammo tests in gel. Take a look at the .380 section and compare it to 9mm (etc).

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...allistic-tests

Gel is a good standard medium for comparing ammo and we can learn a lot from it. However, it isn't the same as animals or bad guys. Unlike uniform gel, there are different tissues, organs, bones, etc. and a host of other factors involved. So while you don't get the whole story from gel, meeting the FBI standard in gel should at least be helpful in getting to the right place for average-sized humans who mean you harm.

I think this is an important point..Not that 'gel firing' simulates a body but it DOES give a relative comparison for different ammo types. Same for the gent that shoots thru 8 layers of denim and then a cantelope, then a bag of water..using XTreme Defender type then JHP..NOT that is simulates a 'body' but it shows relative strengths and possible weakness' well. AS I hear all the time, tough to find somebody who wants to take a round in the chest for testing.

Cosmodragoon above said the same thingbut I think it's important.

[OhioGuy]

Trying to be objective about this, or as objective as possible -- is there really an answer to the question? Isn't it always "it depends?"

People have been dropped by a .22.

People have been shot with a .45 in the chest and kept fighting.

People have gone down faster with pepper spray than with bullets.

Others are stopped with one shot of any caliber. Some stop fighting and run like hell because they think they've been shot but haven't.

People on drugs have been shot to pieces and kept trying to eat someone because their brains are fried and aren't registering pain.

About the only things we really seem to "know" is that .380 performs OK-ish in certain gel block tests. 9mm performs better. .40 and .45 typically don't perform much better than 9mm, but that can vary.

Some argue that the real question should be "Are handguns themselves adequate for self defense" and would say the answer is "no."

I really think the only answer here is to get the "most powerful" thing you can in a size you can carry regularly and shoot accurately with, and then practice and hope like hell you never have to find out.

[Lohman446]

Some argue that the real question should be "Are handguns themselves adequate for self defense" and would say the answer is "no."

I think this is the important argument. A handgun (we are not talking a .500 S+W) is simply a poor choice to depend on to create a situation where an attacker is physiologically disabled QUICKLY through a center of mass shot (or several).

When we argue about the differences in calibers we are arguing which of the bad choices we are going to select.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...es-gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B Fricks "rules for a gunfight"

#6 If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.

[OhioGuy]

The true best point in that list is this one:

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Reading this list -- talking to law enforcement and military who've ever been in actual armed conflict -- makes me wonder how much of training we go through is truly helpful to the "hits the fan" scenario. We can try to make it realistic.

I once heard someone remark that playing paintball in the woods or a "shoot house" is more realistic preparation for armed conflict than any training program at a gun range. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I guess it makes a point.

Another former LE told me caliber doesn't matter, brand doesn't matter, sights don't matter. The most important things in a gunfight are cover/concealment, and having "a crapload of ammo."

I guess everyone has a different experience.

[Lohman446]

I once heard someone remark that playing paintball in the woods or a "shoot house" is more realistic preparation for armed conflict than any training program at a gun range. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I guess it makes a point.

I've played a lot of paintball in my life - a stupid amount. Do I think it is great preparation? Probably not. However I also know this: The people who win? Those that do not freeze up when things are flying by there head and movement starts to get fast. There were a lot of times reffing on walk-on days where you would tell a player that if he did not calm down, get his voice under control and not so high pitch, and communicate, he was not going to be effective at helping his team and helping himself and, btw, you have to look out past the barrier to know what was going on. I intentionally used the word he. Might just be the women who played were not a "normal" cross section but I tended to not see that issue. My other lesson: accuracy by volume quickly trumps bullseye accuracy slowly. Considering the ramifications of stray bullets in a true fire fight that is probably a BAD lesson.

Interesting aside it was not uncommon for some players to carry literally 1800 or more rounds when playing five on five. I routinely carried 500 and was often told I was not carrying nearly enough paint. These were players who could pretty routinely hit a metal fence post sitting at mid-field before the action started if allowed a moment or two to aim and set themselves.

I don't expect the lessons really carry over well aside from being able to remain calm and thing your way through things is probably more important than what you are carrying.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker

Lol, read your own post. First of all you said Kahr 380. If you think a Kahr 380 has a lot of recoil then, I have to wonder if you have ever shot one and actually compared it to the Kahr Cm 9. Big difference. I see you then then omit the CW 380 and only compare the LCP and Keltec. Well I can understand this, but real facts even though both are very snappy, they actually do not have as much recoil. And both are unpleasant to shoot.

Here are some facts. The Kahr CW 380 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, the CM 9 not so.

Kahr CW380 has a 5.39 recoil factor
Kahr CM 9mm 8.26
using a use a public domain Standard Free Recoil equation to calculate recoil.

I did not say Kahr 380.

My unedited post reads:
"IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm"

I specifically compared a LCP 380 to a Kahr CM/PM 9
Pictured is LCP and Kahr PM40 (I got rid of my 380's few months ago)

Lets compare 380 vs 9mm using Lucky Gunner testing for comparison.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/
Two 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18''
Hornady 90 gr. Critical Defense 13.2''/.52 (166# KE)
Sig 90 gr. V Crown 12.8''/.51
If I could do no better than a pocket 380 - like I had to tuck in shirt for work and pocket 380 or nothing, I'd want one of those two loads.

Suppose one could carry a CM/PM 9mm - bunch of 9mm loads meet criteria, since I used Corbon in my initial example I'll stick with it.
Corbon 115 gr. 13.6''/.56 (381# KE)

Hornady 380 Critical Defense does meet expansion/penetration criteria, but delivers less than half the KE of 9mm. (215# increase for 9mm)

Think that KE increase doesn't matter?

Consider this, from 2'' barrels (pocket revolvers):
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/
Remington 38 special LSWCHP 158 +P = 225# KE
Remington 357 Mag SJHP 158 gr. = 436# KE (an advantage of 211# over 38 +P)

Going from 380 to 9mm +P is like going from 38 +P to 357 Mag.
I aint betting my life on 380 or 38 special

[5whiskey]

I once heard someone remark that playing paintball in the woods or a "shoot house" is more realistic preparation for armed conflict than any training program at a gun range. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I guess it makes a point.

Lohman made good points, but I will add to it. Paintball as a played by serious players, is still a game. A team may have a strategy to sacrifice a player to draw out targets on the opposing team, a semi-common practice in paintball. I understood this may occasionally happen in real world battles in the heat of the moment (i.e. "running the rabbit" was actually taught as a CQB tactic at one point), I don't think many warriors begin the conflict with the strategy of sacrificing a squad or team member to gain ground.

Further, the ammo volume that Lohman pointed out does not translate easily to "real world" tactics.

The stress level, yes that's probably something that can translate over. Along with some overall tactics such as constantly seeking cover, and selecting cover to run to before leaving your current good cover... etc.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker

No, a small gun is in NO WAY a Huge mistake. That is BS. It is a huge mistake if that person is not going to train in a very diligent manner. I have been shooting pocket guns religiously for 10 years and can handle one very well. And they can be lightening fast to the draw and to center mass, and even with a moving target. It is all about what you put into it. And the 380 has come a long way. Some of these rounds are nasty.
They are not hard to handle if you train on a regular basis and on some of the smallest, recoil is very acceptable. Some Pocket guns feel like you are almost shooting 32cal.
Any gun is a huge mistake if you do not train, and invest in the time and ammo. Do not under estimate the Pocket gun. You could be making a HUGE mistake.

I'm curious as to why you responded the way you did when it is clear that you...
a) Ignored the context
b) Didn't actually read either of our posts
c) Both

So let's go over the context again in short form...
-Relatively inexperienced shooter
-Buying guns relatively new shooters w/o input is a mistake
-Relatively new shooters often buy small guns believing they have less recoil

How you managed to come up with the reply you did is beyond me.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

I do not bet my life on 380 and I would not want my wife or child to either.
A very few 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18'' which is a desirable standard.
IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm.
"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.
My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
Sticking with two small pistols for comparison:
Ruger LCP: Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps / 141# KE
Ruger LCP: Ranger T 95 gr. 876 fps / 162# KE
Kahr PM9: Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Those 9mm loads generate more than double the KE of the 380 loads.
Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".

I would highly HIGHLY HIGHLY encourage you to get out and do some hunting.

If you do so you'll quickly learn that such 'data points' as you assert are next to meaningless in actual flesh, blood, and bone. In terms of the most common self defense situations for the average citizen, there is almost no practical difference between the most common calibers. As I've said countless times, after over four decades in law enforcement, five decades hunting (incl handgun), the simplest way I can put it is.....

Practice
Placement
Penetration

The 3P's trump everything including...
Projectile
Caliber
Weight
Expansion
Energy
Gel 'tests'
Etc

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Utter nonsense. Mine has recoil like a .22!
typical 7 yard group at medium pace.

Not trying to crap on ya guy but saying the Sig recoils like a 22lr is absolute nonsense.

I love them, just as I love my PPK's. Sleek, sexy, beautifully made works of art that also happen to fire cartridges. But I don't care what planet you reside on, they do NOT recoil like a 22lr, not even in the same league. They are snappy little brats.

Yes with lots of quality instruction, proper technique, and loads of practice, they can be mastered by most folks. But I would never consider starting out a new shooter on one, nor would I recommend one to an inexperienced shooter. If you want to see soft recoil just a few floors up from a 22lr, try the 380EZ side by side with your Sig, it's night vs day.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

The true best point in that list is this one:



Reading this list -- talking to law enforcement and military who've ever been in actual armed conflict -- makes me wonder how much of training we go through is truly helpful to the "hits the fan" scenario. We can try to make it realistic.

I once heard someone remark that playing paintball in the woods or a "shoot house" is more realistic preparation for armed conflict than any training program at a gun range. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I guess it makes a point.

This is generally a correct statement.

Maybe not paintball as a game most often played, but as a generalized way to help structure and practice basic tactics and responses to threats. Which is why the military and so many police agencies started using variations up to and including VR shoot houses, Simunition, and laser.

Shooting on a static range is great training for firearm basics, function, malfunctions, etc. Adding a dynamic range where one is moving, seeking cover/concealment, etc, adds layers that really stack up quickly even for highly experienced shooters. Now throw in other people that shoot back.....we're talking next level that nothing else can come close to other than the real thing.

Realistic is obviously the best option.
But if all one has access to is a local paintball club.....go for it, it will help.

[Lohman446]

I think your chart above is a little off.

Avoidance should be about 99% of it with everything else being about 1%

[JERRYS.]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think your chart above is a little off.

Avoidance should be about 99% of it with everything else being about 1%

the criminal chooses when to confront us, not ourselves. Avoidance is a great idea but hardly up to the intended victim.

[Lohman446]

the criminal chooses when to confront us, not ourselves. Avoidance is a great idea but hardly up to the intended victim.

While there is truth in your statement I think it drastically downplays the role of an individual in avoidance of conflict. Think about how your decisions can increase or decrease the likelihood of a violent confrontation in which you are not the initiator of violence. For instance one could be amazed that the Amish, who are mostly sworn to pacifism, are not every day the victims of violence based on your statement. Easy victims, often dealing in successful cash businesses, and (for the purposes of use against other humans) unarmed. If violence was solely at the discretion of the attacker then these individuals should be a major target.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think your chart above is a little off.

Avoidance should be about 99% of it with everything else being about 1%

It is in reference only to the topic at hand regarding caliber and the application there of.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by TMB900

Yes with lots of quality instruction, proper technique, and loads of practice, they can be mastered by most folks. But I would never consider starting out a new shooter on one, nor would I recommend one to an inexperienced shooter. If you want to see soft recoil just a few floors up from a 22lr, try the 380EZ side by side with your Sig, it's night vs day.

The difference in the actual amount of recoil force between a Sig P232 and a S&W 380EZ is inconsequential (less than 5%). The large difference in felt or perceived recoil between the guns is because the Sig is a blow-back design that delivers it recoil force in one sharp motion while the S&W is a locked-breech design that spreads its recoil force out over time.

[Laz]

The difference in the actual amount of recoil force between a Sig P232 and a S&W 380EZ is inconsequential (less than 5%). The large difference in felt or perceived recoil between the guns is because the Sig is a blow-back design that delivers it recoil force in one sharp motion while the S&W is a locked-breech design that spreads its recoil force out over time.

Which is not insignificant to the user.

[HighValleyRanch]

Insignificant to me!
You guys are fussying over the tinyest things!

Go out and shoot some .357 in your LCR and you will know what recoil feels like!

[Carl the Floor Walker]

These 380 and 9mm caliber wars have been going around to the point of being sickening. And trying to intimate someone when Phrases like "Would you Bet your daughters life" etc are so lame. Sounds so juvenile. A lot of hand picked facts, a a lot of hot air. Yes, I own many 9mm's and a number of Micro 9, snubbie revolvers etc. And I train hard with them.
Over 10 years of shooting all kinds of ammo though a 380 pocket gun, studying the facts etc. I have no problem carrying a Pocket gun.
Let the blow hards against the caliber do their thing. But never underestimate the fact that a 380 can Kill. Not to mention they are so easily carried.
How about we let people choose what they want, and just hope that whatever they decide, that they just do diligent training.

If the op's daughter wants a small 380 then good for her. Since she is new to shooting, they now offer many courses in Pocket pistols from Qualified Instructors. She would do well to fine one and not listen to all the rhetoric we have unfortunately witness here.

Here is a good video to give you a idea of the type of Tactical pocket pistol training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=TR7H3lbNTBw

[tallball]

I have a few 380acp pistols:

Russian Makarov
Sig P230
FN 1971
Colt Government
FEG PPK Clone
Beretta Pico
Beretta 84
LCPII


I think that's all of the ones I have currently. I've owned others.

32 magnum and 380acp are the "puniest" rounds I will personally consider using for SD, but that's just me.

I carry the LCPII from time to time, because it's so small and light that I can carry it almost irregardless of the circumstances and/or what I'm wearing. I figure that if I do my job, it will do its job. I've practiced a fair amount with micro 380's and shoot them fairly well.

That's just my two cents.

[HighValleyRanch]

Do the people that complain about harsh recoil from a blowback design also avoid shooting revolvers? Because they are fixed barrels as well!