What is the difference?

[dahermit]

Despite being a life-long gun enthusiast, I have never gotten a clear picture of what the difference is between a run-of-the-mill 1911 like a "starter" Ruger or Colt and a "high end" expensive 1911. Just what are the actual physical differences between them and why should anyone actually care? Note: for the record, I have only owned Colt 1911's. So, other than some ambiguous and/or nebulus "feel", just what is the difference between a "starter" gun that functions reliably and an expensive one save for pride of ownership?

[cptjack]

an old corsair pilot friend ,Told me ,he would have the armorer change the barrel .till it was accurate

[mk70ss]

Match grade barrels, hand fitted bushings, fitted link pins, better sights, tuned triggers, upgraded grip materials, superior finishes, hand fitted slide to frame, barrel to slide.......

[MTT TL]

Like MK says it can go all the way down to the frame, and even into the frame.

[dahermit]

Match grade barrels, hand fitted bushings, fitted link pins, better sights, tuned triggers, upgraded grip materials, superior finishes, hand fitted slide to frame, barrel to slide.......

As far as I know, my Colt SXE Combat Commander does not have any "hand fitting", but when shot from over sandbags shoots better than I am capable of. I do not understand what a "superior finish" is...it is stainless steel. What you seem to be describing are features that are more in line with pride of ownership rather than any practical advantage...especially in light of the fact that my Colt SXE has apparent tight tolerances and what I consider to be excellent sights, trigger pull, etc.
Not wanting to be obtuse, I just do not get it. It just seems that those "high end" creations are so much about things that make little or no practical difference.

[MTT TL]

A Nickel Boron finish on the right parts can absolutely make a gun function better and is superior.

[gbclarkson]

I'm with you, Dahermit. I am not a high-volume, precision shooter so a base-level pistol meets my personal accuracy and reliability requirements and my purpose of purchase. However, when I finally win that elusive big lotto I'm getting me a Wilson, and a Nighthawk, and a P210, and a Korth, and a Pardini. Why? Because I can.

[dahermit]

A Nickel Boron finish on the right parts can absolutely make a gun function better and is superior.

Better than one that is 100% reliable stock, out of the box?

[rodfac]

I'm with you too, dahermit, on this one. Pride of ownership is certainly a valid reason for owning a high-end handgun, but in my hands, if it'll shoot 2" gps at 25 yds from a rest with selected ammunition, with a fair/good trigger, and has the reliability to be carried for CC use...that gun will fit my needs.

Need's differ from individual to individual, and around here on the farm, we all carry some sort of handgun for use while doing chores. 25 yd hits on a soup can is the accuracy we need for anything that comes up. That takes a fairly good trigger and enough inherent accuracy from the slide, bbl., line et al., to accomplish. And it does not limit their use as CC weapons on trips to town.

Our guns are on the lower end of the price scale, [tho that Remington-Rand is starting to climb in value] and I'd not hang myself from the barn rafters if I dropped one off the tractor...holster wear and some nicks and gouges from day to day use are honorable scars...on a high-end gun...they'd be tough to accept...like a hail dent in your Maserati's hood.

I've had over a dozen Colts over the years and none except a Gold Cup .45 and another in .40 S&W would deliver that without some (but not a lot of) work. Two Rugers, a 5" and a CMD would do it right out of the box and with most anything I loaded into the mags., surprisingly too, is a WWll Remington-Rand in NRA "Good" condition...this last one will open some eyes on a public range for it's grouping ability.

So, I don't begrudge the guys who tout their high-end 1911's, but find that I [and maybe they] can't shoot 'em any better than what I have currently in the safe, and some of them not as well.

YMMV, Rod

[dahermit]

As a former machinist (retired), I know that mechanical things (1911's) need sufficient clearances to function. This conversation about high-end hand fitting begs the question: Just how tight (fitted), does a gun have to be before such super-close tolerances become detrimental to the purpose and function? In other words, what "advantage" does a high-end (read, "expensive") gun have when it must be kept super-clean to function? Certainly, that calls in to question the utility of a close-tolerance gun for at least everyday carry.

[tallball]

Me neither, but then again I am a mediocre shot. I can shoot my couple of "starter" 1911's as well (or poorly) as any of my other centerfire semiautomatic pistols, some of which are fancier. I doubt that I would shoot an expensive one any better.

[P-990]

Pride of ownership and attention to detail in the craftsmanship. That's what separates a Nighthawk, a Wilson or an Ed Brown from a Colt or even a Dan Wesson.

I've actually seen people write questioning if it's possible to shoot a Colt or similar pistol as well because the pistols haven't been "balanced, timed, adjusted, sprinkled with unicorn dust and virgin tears, blah blah..." like the high end pistols. Clearly those are folks who see some value in the hand-fitted $3000+ pistols. Yet I think it also represents a misunderstanding of what it takes to shoot well, and what separates Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, Doug Koenig, et al from the rest of us (hint: it ain't the gear... ).

Disclaimer: I own 2 Colt 1911s. Despite the Internet, I didn't find them over-priced, poorly made or see any other deficiency with either pistol. To the contrary, both are well-fitted, reliable, accurate, perfectly serviceable pistols that seem to be properly made.

[JDBerg]

It all depends how you want to spend your money. You can have $1,200.00 invested in 2 half-decent base 1911’s or you can spend that $1,200.00 on one good one. I paid that much for my Dan Wesson Valor used and it’s the best gun I own. I paid not quite that much for my “pre-E Series” SW1911 9 years ago, bought it new, and it’s a very good shooting 1911, but it sure ain’t no DW Valor!

[William Munny]

Nickel Boron parts...Long term...yes. Better wear resistance and lubricity can help make a gun function smoothly and last longer. That being said, most people don't shoot enough to wear out a gun like a Colt, Ruger or Springfield Armory factory gun with "standard" parts and finishes if they apply even the most basic routine maintenance.

Personally, when I hear the term "starter" or "base" 1911 I think of a gun with the standard grip safety, spur hammer, small thumb safety and GI type sights. I wouldn't consider your Colt XSE to be a "starter 1911" by any means. It already has most of the modifications most guys would do to a base gun. It isn't a full blown custom, bespoke firearm but it isn't a bottom of the line gun either.

[Guyand]

People at my range often let others try out their pistols. When someone shows up with a 600 dollar gun that shoots as well as my STI Trojan, which was about 1,200 dollars, believe me I will be the first one to run out and buy two of those.

I have no desire to throw around money. I tried a Ruger 1911 at the range and it was nice but not quite as nice for target practice as the STI. Nothing against Ruger or any other company.

I am practical. If someone showed up with 600 dollar 1911 that I really liked, I would go buy two! My Trojan is coming up on 10,00 rounds and it is as good as the day I bought it. I just change the recoil spring now and again and clean it up after every 150 or so rounds.

So if you found a 600 1911 that shoots well and serves your purpose, enjoy it!! I have no beef. But for now I lean toward what works well for me even though it cost a little bit more.

[Frank Ettin]

The top level semi-custom and custom 1911s are beautifully put together and can be a treat to shoot and handle. Mine have been absolutely reliable and very accurate, and I've been very pleased with them. One of my Les Baers has seen a lot of use in IPSC competition in the Limited Division. Another has been to the handgun class at Gunsite as well as a couple of other classes. One of my Nighthawks has also performed beautifully in another class.

I think that the guns at that level are just "nicer." I appreciate the quality I see in them. They cost what they cost. Whether that something extra in these pistols is worth the additional cost is something you have to decide for yourself. I'm not sure that I can necessarily argue objectively or scientifically that it is. But it is worth it to me.


But if one appreciates high end pistols (or rifles or shotguns) and is lucky enough to have the means to satisfy his business and familial responsibilities and also indulge his tastes, there's no reason he should not. One may not need a top end 1911 (or Mercedes or Rolex or Perazzi), but nonetheless they are wonderful machines, can perform their functions well and are satisfying to use.


[CDW4ME]

Dan Wesson uses tool steel small parts, below that price pistols have various MIM parts.
I own Ed Brown, Dan Wesson, Colt, Kimber, Ruger, so I am saying that as fact, not bashing MIM.

[vba]

I own MANY 1911's from Colt 1991A1's, Rock River Arms and Les Baer and can assure you that anyone of the latter two are absolutely more accurate than any of the Colts. The RRA's and Baer's though built to tighter tolerances are absolutely reliable as well.

This is not to say my Colts are bad because they are not. Yet, if I'm shooting a target match I will use an RRA or Baer.

[T. O'Heir]

There's nothing wrong with MIM parts. Ruger's whole business is based on investment casting.
Most of the difference is the name on the slide. However, the parts in high priced custom built pistols are usually hand fitted and the finish on the metal is better.

[gc70]

Guns meet different types of needs. Some guns meet functional needs of accuracy and reliability. Other guns meet ownership needs of pride and satisfaction. Still other guns meet needs in both the functional and ownership categories. The value of any gun depends on how well it meets the owner's needs, whatever those needs may be.

[MTT TL]

Better than one that is 100% reliable stock, out of the box?

Yes. If nothing else it will last longer and run fine with little or no lubricant. I enjoy your skepticism. Some "upgrades" I put in the questionable category. Different people find different things to be of value to them.

[mk70ss]

Will a decent, brand name 1911 work as it is supposed to out of the box? Most likely they will. Will they last probably longer than their owner if treated as least somewhat responsibly? Most likely. Will they be sufficiently accurate when shot with decent ammo? Most likely.
But then hold and look at a Wilson Combat 1911 for example. Shoot it. You know what you’re holding and shooting is extremely high quality.

Will a Prius or Kia do everything a car needs to? Yup. But me? I have custom built Mustang that has upgraded brakes, motor, suspension because I can and I like it to out perform a run of the mill, stock car.

[laytonj1]

Despite being a life-long gun enthusiast, I have never gotten a clear picture of what the difference is between a run-of-the-mill 1911 like a "starter" Ruger or Colt and a "high end"

Neither did I, till I bought one. Which led to another and another...
The fact is, an average shooter will not notice a difference. If the best you are capable of shooting is a 4" group at 25 yards then no amount of money spent on a better gun will make you a better shot. If the gun you are using is not capable of better accuracy than a 3" group then that is as good as you'll get. If you're perfectly happy with the quality of a sub $1K 1911 then you likely will not appreciate the build quality of a $3K gun. A competitive shooter will appreciate the differences as well as folks who simply like a higher level of quality and accuracy. Now, you can reach a point of diminishing returns when you get into the really big bucks but it depends on the level and desire of the owner.
As far as tight guns being less reliable, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, etc did not get their reputation by building fragile guns that break at the first signs of dirt. I have a Les Baer that is super tight. Requires a bushing wrench to turn the bushing and using the barrel as a slide hammer to remove the bushing. Zero play anywhere. Yet it has gone thru over 1200 rds so far with not a single malfunction. Same with all the others and I've shot some pretty cheap and dirty ammo thru them.

So, if a normal day at the range is shooting from the 7 yard line, you likely won't benefit. But for others, until you try one you'll never know.

Jim

[PushPuller]

I wouldn't consider your Colt XSE to be a "starter 1911" by any means. It already has most of the modifications most guys would do to a base gun. It isn't a full blown custom, bespoke firearm but it isn't a bottom of the line gun either.

I can agree with this! When my dad gave me my XSE for my 21st birthday I thought it was run of the mill. since then iv had experience with a couple of Kimbers, a Wilson, and a Les that I can pleasantly say were not much more superior in any way than my lightly upgraded XSE. for less than 1k id buy XSEs all day.

But on that note, I have also had experience with 1911s that were incredibly run of the mill and were amazing shooters. Especially Para Ordnance.

[RickB]

A lot of the price difference between the $600 gun and $1000 gun is the manufacturing process, all else being equal.

While retail prices for parts don't correlate perfectly with the cost of integrating those parts into a gun at assembly, if you look at fully machined parts, forged or barstock, and compare that to cast parts, it accounts for a lot of the difference.

I bought a machined barstock frame from Caspian for $300, when their cast frame was $150.

A cast ambi safety runs $60-$70, while a barstock part is also double.

As noted already in this thread, more expensive guns usually have more forged and barstock parts, and the manufacturers ensure you appreciate it.