NY shop owners defense of his employees

derilect · August 15, 2009, 09:02 PM

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...biz_owner.html

This man seems as though he may be treated fairly. If this has already made an appearance I apologize. I'm sure we all like to see someone defending themselves.

Trooper Tyree · August 15, 2009, 09:34 PM

All four robbers sustained hits yet he only fired three rounds according to the article. I wonder what load he was using?

Granted it was a shotgun at 20-30 feet, but it sounds like he scored a good shot to hit ration. Usually in these situations people end up hitting everything except the perps.

KyJim · August 15, 2009, 09:38 PM

They got what they deserved but, I'm a bit worried about this:

"As the bandits bolted from the store, Augusto squeezed off three blasts from the pistol-grip shotgun from 20 to 30 feet away from the pistol-whipped employee. . . . Two of the robbers were struck in the back."

If that were here in Kentucky, I wouldn't be too concerned but this happened in New York City.

derilect · August 15, 2009, 09:48 PM

That is the source of my concern as well. So far, no talk of charges or wrong doing. Maybe he gets raked over the coals in civil court. I don't know NYC's laws.

Al Norris · August 15, 2009, 10:17 PM

Unless there's a legal or civil rights issue (which, so far, there's none), shootings don't belong in L&CR. Moving to T&T

derilect · August 15, 2009, 10:32 PM

Thanks, I was unsure were that belonged.

jakeg823 · August 15, 2009, 11:42 PM

i heard yesterday that "legal experts" didnt expect any charges to be filed...but if they were they were confident it wouldnt be anything more than a slap on the wrist. 20-30 feet + pg shotgun(assuming its pg only, i never heard otherwise)+3 shots/4 hits=one BA old man!

MLeake · August 15, 2009, 11:57 PM

... by his own account, is more of a heart-broken old man.

While I think it's reasonable to praise his successful handling of the problem, I think it might be disrespectful to create an ebullient tone in discussing the incident, since he is very unhappy that he felt he had no choice but to fire.

I think his decision to fire was absolutely correct, but I don't envy him the many nights of lost sleep that he is probably going to have.

Am I happy that the store owner and his employees survived the encounter? Yes. Am I happy that two people died? No. I'd have been happier if those two people, or really those four people, had not created that situation.

For that matter, I'd be happier if I didn't feel that there is still a need to carry. Unfortunately, there is, and this case is an example of why that need exists.

But it's not a cause for celebration.

**JohnKSa** · August 16, 2009, 12:14 AM

Quote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...shooting_.html

If you just GOTTA talk to the press, these are good things to say...

""I would have been happy if they'd all run out the door," he said. "I'm sick to my stomach over it."

Augusto, 72, insisted he told the gunman who'd just pistol-whipped his clerk to clear out, but the bandit just wouldn't listen.

"I'm sad I couldn't talk him out of it," he said. "I'm sad there's mothers and fathers with no sons today."

jakeg823 · August 16, 2009, 12:31 AM

didnt mean any disrespect for what happened...i just meant he is an elderly man who is capable of sticking up for himself, and he did so very efficiently, and he should be praised for doing so, especially for protecting the lives of his employees, and possibly others if the robbers had gotten away.

jgcoastie · August 16, 2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

A registered Republican, he said he learned how to handle a gun while serving in the Coast Guard.

(emphasis added by me)

+1 for us Coasties...

MLeake · August 16, 2009, 08:49 AM

You didn't really come across that way, but I had a bad feeling that the BA old man comment would get some high-five replies from some folks, and I wanted to pre-empt those.

Didn't intend it as a personal criticism.

Cheers,

M

derilect · August 16, 2009, 09:24 AM

I'll tell you a reason to be jubilant, the statistics say, he just made his community safer and this country safer. Most scumbags want to victimize you without dying themselves. Incidents like these do cause them to think twice.

MLeake · August 16, 2009, 09:36 AM

... and successful SD against criminals is also good.

But jubilant and celebratory are bad postures to take; not only do they tend to inflame antis, especially the swing types that we could potentially otherwise win over - but they also create an internet record for individuals of them taking a lighthearted view of shooting others. This would not be optimal for a DA to dig up during any future SD defense by such posters.

IE you can hurt gun owners at large, or yourself specifically, by making yahoo comments. Exercise caution.

derilect · August 16, 2009, 11:48 AM

The comments on the nytimes page shows many New Yorkers relieved and emboldened by a local standing up for his right to exist in that environment. They are sick of Bloomberg, and I'm happy for them that they have someone to rally around.

Antis walk around in a constant state of irritation that we enjoy any freedoms at all. I'll lose no sleep over their discomfort.

MLeake · August 16, 2009, 01:21 PM

But you discount the middle-grounders at your own peril. Antagonizing swing voters is stupid. Just ask the 2000 Democrats or the 2006 Republicans. (Sorry, politics - but non-partisan, only observational) Both those election cycles were dominated by the movement of center voters to one side or the other, in response to the respective party cozying up to much to its extreme base.

In other words, a lot of undecided soccer moms may go the other way, if you come across as bloodthirsty or gloating. That could tip scales that we don't want tipped.

You also choose to disregard warnings about possible future use of your own posts against you in criminal or civil cases at your own risk.

derilect · August 16, 2009, 01:48 PM

Fair enough. Do you think any of the posts on TFL came off as bloodthirsty or is the sort of thing that would be damaging in court.

I say only on TFL because its likely someone om ny times comments went to far( I didn't read all 35 pages) as the were pretty emotional it being obvious so many were local.

MLeake · August 16, 2009, 02:00 PM

But if you look at a lot of threads that moderators have closed, you'll see the types of posts I mean.

August 15, 2009, 09:02 PM	#1
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	NY shop owners defense of his employees http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...biz_owner.html This man seems as though he may be treated fairly. If this has already made an appearance I apologize. I'm sure we all like to see someone defending themselves. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 15, 2009, 09:48 PM	#4
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	That is the source of my concern as well. So far, no talk of charges or wrong doing. Maybe he gets raked over the coals in civil court. I don't know NYC's laws. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 15, 2009, 10:32 PM	#6
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	Thanks, I was unsure were that belonged. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 15, 2009, 11:57 PM	#8
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	That BA old man... ... by his own account, is more of a heart-broken old man. While I think it's reasonable to praise his successful handling of the problem, I think it might be disrespectful to create an ebullient tone in discussing the incident, since he is very unhappy that he felt he had no choice but to fire. I think his decision to fire was absolutely correct, but I don't envy him the many nights of lost sleep that he is probably going to have. Am I happy that the store owner and his employees survived the encounter? Yes. Am I happy that two people died? No. I'd have been happier if those two people, or really those four people, had not created that situation. For that matter, I'd be happier if I didn't feel that there is still a need to carry. Unfortunately, there is, and this case is an example of why that need exists. But it's not a cause for celebration.

August 16, 2009, 08:49 AM	#12
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	jakeg823 You didn't really come across that way, but I had a bad feeling that the BA old man comment would get some high-five replies from some folks, and I wanted to pre-empt those. Didn't intend it as a personal criticism. Cheers, M

August 15, 2009, 09:34 PM	#2
Trooper Tyree Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 167	All four robbers sustained hits yet he only fired three rounds according to the article. I wonder what load he was using? Granted it was a shotgun at 20-30 feet, but it sounds like he scored a good shot to hit ration. Usually in these situations people end up hitting everything except the perps.

August 15, 2009, 09:38 PM	#3
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	They got what they deserved but, I'm a bit worried about this: "As the bandits bolted from the store, Augusto squeezed off three blasts from the pistol-grip shotgun from 20 to 30 feet away from the pistol-whipped employee. . . . Two of the robbers were struck in the back." If that were here in Kentucky, I wouldn't be too concerned but this happened in New York City.

August 15, 2009, 10:17 PM	#5
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Unless there's a legal or civil rights issue (which, so far, there's none), shootings don't belong in L&CR. Moving to T&T

August 15, 2009, 11:42 PM	#7
jakeg823 Junior member Join Date: July 24, 2009 Posts: 91	i heard yesterday that "legal experts" didnt expect any charges to be filed...but if they were they were confident it wouldnt be anything more than a slap on the wrist. 20-30 feet + pg shotgun(assuming its pg only, i never heard otherwise)+3 shots/4 hits=one BA old man!

August 16, 2009, 12:31 AM	#10
jakeg823 Junior member Join Date: July 24, 2009 Posts: 91	didnt mean any disrespect for what happened...i just meant he is an elderly man who is capable of sticking up for himself, and he did so very efficiently, and he should be praised for doing so, especially for protecting the lives of his employees, and possibly others if the robbers had gotten away.

August 16, 2009, 09:24 AM	#13
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	I'll tell you a reason to be jubilant, the statistics say, he just made his community safer and this country safer. Most scumbags want to victimize you without dying themselves. Incidents like these do cause them to think twice. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 16, 2009, 09:36 AM	#14
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Safer is good... ... and successful SD against criminals is also good. But jubilant and celebratory are bad postures to take; not only do they tend to inflame antis, especially the swing types that we could potentially otherwise win over - but they also create an internet record for individuals of them taking a lighthearted view of shooting others. This would not be optimal for a DA to dig up during any future SD defense by such posters. IE you can hurt gun owners at large, or yourself specifically, by making yahoo comments. Exercise caution.

August 16, 2009, 11:48 AM	#15
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	The comments on the nytimes page shows many New Yorkers relieved and emboldened by a local standing up for his right to exist in that environment. They are sick of Bloomberg, and I'm happy for them that they have someone to rally around. Antis walk around in a constant state of irritation that we enjoy any freedoms at all. I'll lose no sleep over their discomfort. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 16, 2009, 01:21 PM	#16
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Confirmed antis, true. But you discount the middle-grounders at your own peril. Antagonizing swing voters is stupid. Just ask the 2000 Democrats or the 2006 Republicans. (Sorry, politics - but non-partisan, only observational) Both those election cycles were dominated by the movement of center voters to one side or the other, in response to the respective party cozying up to much to its extreme base. In other words, a lot of undecided soccer moms may go the other way, if you come across as bloodthirsty or gloating. That could tip scales that we don't want tipped. You also choose to disregard warnings about possible future use of your own posts against you in criminal or civil cases at your own risk.

August 16, 2009, 01:48 PM	#17
derilect Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: texoma Posts: 13	Fair enough. Do you think any of the posts on TFL came off as bloodthirsty or is the sort of thing that would be damaging in court. I say only on TFL because its likely someone om ny times comments went to far( I didn't read all 35 pages) as the were pretty emotional it being obvious so many were local. __________________ You can lie to your friends, you can lie to yourself...you cant lie to nobody with that cold steel in your face. The same God you were so afraid was gonna send you to hell, is the same one your gonna answer to when the pin hits the shell.

August 16, 2009, 02:00 PM	#18
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	In this thread, not yet, and hopefully they won't. But if you look at a lot of threads that moderators have closed, you'll see the types of posts I mean.