Gun store gripe

[Metal god]

I'm in one of the last real mom & pops gun stores left here in San Diego . I don't go there often but have bought one firearm , many pounds of powder , primers and have sent many folks his way . I say his way because the owner is in the store most day unlike most other gun stores here and why I call it a mom & pops type store .

Anyways , I'm there helping a buddy buy the last of the new reloading thing he needs to start reloading . The owner happens to be there in the same area helping another customer . I'm looking for the Unique powder and the owner asks what we're looking for and we tell him . He says we got plenty and says not asks you want two . I say no He's just starting .

We keep looking for other stuff and I notice he has no Lee dies . I look at my buddy and say they don't have them here we can get them off amazon . The owner over heard me and steps in from working with the other customer , what you looking for . I tell him and he says "Lee's" are made in china and I've had more of those retuned then anything else . Here's a set of Redding 9mm dies , these are great dies .

So we go to check out and he tells his guy go get "2" lbs of unique for this gentleman . . This is not the first time he's pushed or tried to push something on a customer I've sent in or brought with me .

Another buddy of mine wanted to buy a CZ in 223 for shooting out to 300+ yards . I told my buddy make sure you get the 1-9 twist and not the 1-12 or we can't load the heavier match bullets for those longer distances . My buddy goes and buys the rifle and I asked did you get the 109 twist . He said no they did not have one and the owner said I don't need it for 300 yard shooting . OMG sure it's not needed but he would not have said that if he had the 1-9 in stock IMO he pushed the 1-12 on a customer to make the sale rather then order what he wanted .

There's other stuff to , like I bought my XD45 compact from him . Turners outdoorsman had them for $45 less but I wanted to buy there in part to show him I'm willing to pay more to help the little guy out . How ever he sold me the XD45 compact with out the holster or mag pouch . That model/set is almost $80 cheaper at turners and called the essentials package . That was not mentioned when buying it nor is it on my receipt .

Regardless these little things keep happening

Also this store has by far the highest prices in town on everything Guns for sure as the 45 story shows . lb of powder ( any ) $32 , brick of primers $38 , 500 9mm PLRN Berry's 124gr $110 . I could go on and on . My buddy just bought 1k 115gr bullets from Nachezs for $79 with free shipping

I'm obviously going to stop going there or sending guys to him because I just get this slimy feeling every time I'm there . I wanted to support this store , it's why I bought the gun and maybe 20lbs of powder from him in about 1-1/2 years . Just to show him I'm willing to do my part as the customer but he keeps being kinda slimy

My question is , am I over reacting . Is this just a simple , if your dumb enough to listen to me I'll sell you what ever you'll buy ? Maybe I just want the old mom & pops vibe that's just not there from this guy .

[TruthTellers]

Nah, you're not overreacting because if the guy is pushing product on people and not carrying reloading supplies for starters, he's not being a good merchant and if he's holding out on accessories that other retailers aren't, he's just asking for you to look elsewhere.

You can always talk to him and tell him you've been disappointed lately with his service, even though you've been a loyal customer.

I've recently been having issues with my favorite and not so local LGS. When I do a transfer, I'll have a shop 25 minutes away do it, even though I could have one 5 mins away do it. Why? Because he gives a discount for local gun club members and I like the savings and to give him my business.

Lately though, it's been tough. Wait times are approaching 30 minutes because he seems to always be the only guy there, dealing with customers, answer phone calls, signing for deliveries... that's time that adds up and next thing you know, you have 5 people in line.

So, after a 30 minute wait to do paperwork for a transfer, he lost my paperwork the day I went to pick up my gun and I had to come back the next day after it was found. Thankfully one of other guys gave me $60 of ammo as an apology.

Then the next transfer I did I waited again for 30 minutes. When the day came to pick it up, he didn't have it because it was shipped USPS and was sitting in a PO box across the street and he never told me the process for USPS orders. So, I had to call the next few days to tell guys behind the counter to go to the PO to pick up my box and they couldn't do that because... there was only one person behind the counter that day... because the new owner doesn't want to pay people.

I'm sorry, but on a Saturday, the busiest gun buying day of the week, you should have two people behind the counter.

When I finally went in to pick it up, the guy that gave me the $60 of ammo was there, I told him all what I had to go through, and he felt bad and didn't charge me the transfer fee.

Anytime John Bull is behind the counter, he makes the place run like Swiss watch. When the owner, Cowboy Will is there, it runs like Chinese motorcycle.

I haven't been able to talk to the owner, but next time I do a transfer and I have issues, I'm gonna have to give him some bad news.

As far as prices, it's one thing I don't complain about because I've come to realize that the prices on guns and ammo in stores are to try and get those few newbies who have never bought or owned guns before and don't know or trust doing online gun stuff and ffl transfers. I bought my first three guns in stores and probably spent $300 more than had I done it online.

Sales tax is something I try to avoid, so buying bullets and cases from Natchez is fine. You know, those online retailers need business too, especially those that carry a lot of reloading supplies which is a small market compared to people who buy factory ammo.

And when the customer service of the online retailers is blowing away my local shops customer service, I'd rather reward the online stores.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Metal god

I'm obviously going to stop going there or sending guys to him because I just get this slimy feeling every time I'm there . I wanted to support this store , it's why I bought the gun and maybe 20lbs of powder from him in about 1-1/2 years . Just to show him I'm willing to do my part as the customer but he keeps being kinda slimy

It's really a shame -- and difficult to understand -- when a small business owner goes out of his way to try to screw customers who have shown loyalty to them.

My question is , am I over reacting . Is this just a simple , if your dumb enough to listen to me I'll sell you what ever you'll buy ? Maybe I just want the old mom & pops vibe that's just not there from this guy .

No, you are not overreacting. The guy has "rewarded" your loyalty by screwing one of your friends on a rifle purchase, he cheated you on the accessories for your pistol, he wanted to sell two pounds of powder after you specifically told him you wanted one pound ... and I'm pretty certain that Lee dies are not made in China, so he may have outright lied to you as a bonus.

I'm surprised you've stuck with him as long as you have. I would have bailed out on him after the first incident. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

[shootniron]

There is no reward for my shopping locally...never has been. I have 3 large and well stocked shops in my town.

So, I don't shop locally...I have other options...and I exercise them.

Just yesterday, I went in the largest shop...held a gun that I was about to buy....handed it back to the clerk. If I were to buy that gun from that shop, it would cost me $100 more than ordering it online and paying shipping and transfer fee. I would go $50 more...but I will not pay $100 more. Guess where I went for my purchase...

[UncleEd]

Perhaps not relevant to this discussion,
but brick and mortar dealers are often
at a disadvantage because they're not
big enough to buy in volume and get
a manufacturer's discount on guns and
then the sales tax clicks in as an
additional price burden.

[3Crows]

Lee dies and presses are not made in China. The dies may not be the very best but they work fine for normal people, absolutely fine. As to the Lee Classic Cast (iron) presses they are as good or better than any equivalent press, most of which are pot metal and made in China and then painted a fancy green hammer tone color.

And I have been more often rudely treated in M&P stores than the retail giants and I do not appreciate being abused and then haveing to pay more for it. If they were nice to me then I would not mind a premium charge, but they are not, so I do not.

3C

[Metal god]

Thanks guys , wasn't sure if I was blowing this up more then it is . It's to bad because this store does have a lot of reloading supplies in comparison to most other stores in the county . There's a place in El Cajon about 15min from me I've heard sells a good amount of reloading stuff . I'll give them a try .

[fredvon4]

Like the OP I have more than a few similar LGS stories as we moved around in the military

I, like so many of us here, have run into some exceeding good gun stores and also way too many with brain dead proprietors

Way back before good research could be done on internet, I was hostage to what the guy behind the counter tried to sell me...I was a little slow and took a while to catch on to how I was separated from my hard earned cash... for things I did not really need or were just plain junk from git go

Hardest thing for me these days a bit wiser at 62...be in a store listening to an up-sell (especially with false claims) and keeping my mouth shut

And the flip side.... in a store... while a true neophyte is asking about this or that and the counter guy is giving GOOD advice...so good sometimes, I HAVE to jump in and help make the sale....earns me karma point in that store too....win win

[Nathan]

Have you guys just tried being honest with them? Take the XD45. Did you explain that he was $50 over the going rate and you wan he essentials package....willing to order, etc Maybe he would have worked a deal.


That said, I always enter in a deal knowing values and what I want. I am willing to tell the little guy how to earn my business. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not, but I leave knowing I gave them a chance to earn my business.

Funny thing is, there are enough impulse buyers and buyers where $50-$100 matter little in the quest to buy it now.

I think mom& pop shops need a new business model:

New by $25 transfer only. You order and pay on your own, or pay me $20 to help you order.

Used.....this is a great market to buy used locally and sell locally + online.

Ammo.....buy now for 25% markup.....case lot orders and receive 5% over best online price

Gunsmithing....priced based on local demand

Shipping....cost + $25 and store packs

Parts.....+ 25% over best non-sale net pricing

Reloading components.....similar

Holsters......try before you buy plus custom makers stocked at 30% over net price.

[Obambulate]

Seems like the small shops try to stick you for every penny and many don't mind being deceptive. I went to buy a rimfire revolver in .22lr/.22mag. The tag said it comes with both cylinders. I fill out the form, they call it in, they bring out the box, I ask where's the extra cylinder? The owner cops an attitude, like how do I dare question him? Then when pressed, he blames it on a part-time employee who wrote the wrong thing on the tag. I say fine, just knock $40 off the price since the 1 cylinder model is $40 cheaper than the 2 cylinder version. He says NO, you bought it as-is. I say I haven't bought anything and do not want it at that price. He says he already did the paperwork and I have to buy it now. I say I'm calling the cops for deceptive advertising. He actually pulls the tag off the gun and tells me to get the hell out of his store or HE will call the cops. I just laugh and walk out. The shop was sold shortly afterwards and the new owners are nice people.

[Aguila Blanca]

Some people shouldn't be in business -- or, if they are, should not deal with the public. Jonathan Arthur Ciener, of .22LR conversions fame, is one such. His lack of customer interaction skills very nearly landed him in prison a few years ago. Fine product, but truly horrible attitude.

Maybe six months ago I was looking for some cast lead bullets in an unusual caliber. Found a place on the internet that said they had them, and gave a price. Don't remember what it was, but call it $50 per 100 bullets.

I called, since there was no way to order from the web site. Crusty old guy answered. I told him what I was looking for, and he said "I don't have any." I mentioned that his web site listed them. Then he acknowledged that he could make them, but he didn't have them in stock, and didn't know when he could get around to it. I told him I was in no rush, so I'd wait.

Then he said the price was $75 per 100. I said the web site listed them at $50 per 100. "I know what the web site says. The price is $75 per 100. D'you want 'em or not?"

My answer was "Not." I spent more time searching, and found another source that was cheaper, and much more professional and pleasant to deal with. In fact, I have a second batch on order even now.

[FrankenMauser]

If what you say is true, then you are not over-reacting.
However... You should always keep in mind that buyer's remorse is very real, and your friends may be altering their own versions of the story, just so they don't have to explain why reality didn't align with your suggestions.

One of my uncles bought a 1:7" twist .223 AR that was supposed to be fill the role of a "varmint" rig. We questioned his sanity and motivation. He defended staunchly, and came up with dozens of excuses that blamed other people. But, some years down the road, he admitted that he had been persuaded to 1:7" by Google's search results and a random discussion on an internet forum.


Move on, and don't look back.
If the business is dirty and cheating, let them fail.
The best lessons in life are those watched from afar, as something that someone brought upon their self descends from the heavens and crushes them under the weight of their own stupidity.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Some people shouldn't be in business -- or, if they are, should not deal with the public. Jonathan Arthur Ciener, of .22LR conversions fame, is one such. His lack of customer interaction skills very nearly landed him in prison a few years ago. Fine product, but truly horrible attitude.

Maybe six months ago I was looking for some cast lead bullets in an unusual caliber. Found a place on the internet that said they had them, and gave a price. Don't remember what it was, but call it $50 per 100 bullets.

I called, since there was no way to order from the web site. Crusty old guy answered. I told him what I was looking for, and he said "I don't have any." I mentioned that his web site listed them. Then he acknowledged that he could make them, but he didn't have them in stock, and didn't know when he could get around to it. I told him I was in no rush, so I'd wait.

Then he said the price was $75 per 100. I said the web site listed them at $50 per 100. "I know what the web site says. The price is $75 per 100. D'you want 'em or not?"

My answer was "Not." I spent more time searching, and found another source that was cheaper, and much more professional and pleasant to deal with. In fact, I have a second batch on order even now.

When you factor out prices and focus solely on how you are treated, you know who's a good business and who's not.

That guy sounds like he deserves to be living on the streets with his attitude.

Before I started buying online for the convenience, and because I could actually get what I wanted by purchasing online, there was one lgs I tried to give my business to as much as possible. Every time I went in though, the person behind the counter seemed eager to get me out the door, with or without a sale.

I stopped going there a while back. They never had anything I wanted and had they been more polite I would have given them more of my business.

Sometimes I think that these FFL's and gun shops that have been in business for 30-40 years think that it's still the 80s and 90s and that the internet doesn't exist and people don't do their own research.

Old guys who think if you're not carrying a 40 ounce all steel .45 ACP you may as well be carrying a .22 because everything smaller than a .45 is the same power as a .22 is. Old guys who think that Colt still makes the best AR's, that anything Remington is still the greatest hunting rifle or shotgun, anything that's polymer framed is junk and is going to fall apart after shooting it once... these guys are living in the past and are out of touch.

I'm not saying everyone that's past a certain age is that way, but I've never talked to anyone in their 20s, 30s, or 40s who spout such bunk. The young guys I talk to are all hyped up on the .300 Blackout in the AR or stuff that skirts the NFA like the Mossberg Shockwave. The stubborn guys would say that .30-30 is way better than .300 BLK and that there's nothing a .45 can't do that the "Schlock Wave" can.

[Minorcan]

Interesting stories, we all have them. I recently wanted a Mossberg 930 as a Christmas present for my wife so I went to my LGS and placed the order. When the day the gun was supposed to arrive and didn’t I asked why and was told a delay from the supplier so I waited. After several weeks of this I called in and said when will it be in and why should I believe the date. The counter guy got the owner and he said the factory rotates making different models and they hadn’t made the 930 and with the Christmas rush all the suppliers were out. I said no problem I will substitute a different model that is similar. I ordered the 930 JM model. When the gun came in the owner says, if I had known what I wanted and ordered that gun the first time it would have saved him a lot of trouble. This really ticked me off to the point I won’t go back there. After all if he’d checked if the gun was in stock we could have resolved the issue and I wouldn’t have had the stress of what I would get my wife if the gun had not come in on time. Even with the delay I would have still been a good customer if he had just kept his opinion and mouth shut instead of blaming me for his problems that he had caused. By the way I have since bought two more guns, and yep, not from him.

[Nathan]

Just went into a gun store 2 days ago....it was blizzarding outside. Some guy helped me quick and then raced off....

The rest of the employees seemed to want to talk about the snow more than sell me a gun. I bought my ammo and walked out keeping my "gun money" for my next online purchase...whatever.

[ammo.crafter]

So sad that the good old mom & pop LGS are disappearing.

I have such fond memories spending many hours in LGS as a kid. I always got a smile from the owners, knowing that "this kid" is not going to purchase anything but was nonetheless welcome to snoop in the store.

[NateKirk]

There's a reason that "mom and pop" shops are disappearing. It's because they usually suck. They invariably have terrible service, limited selection, they're usually more expensive, and increasing I've found as of late, they don't know what they're talking about.

I'm sorry what did you say, I can do 10 minutes of research on the internet then order something from Amazon for $10 cheaper with free shipping and returns? THANKS CAPITALISM! ; )

[T. O'Heir]

"...he's pushed or tried to push..." Selling stuff is his job. It's also how he stays open.
"...I recently wanted a Mossberg 930..." For who? snicker. How fast or even if a local shop can get anything specially ordered depends on whether or not his supplier has one in stock. The stuff he told you about the factory is nonsense though. Local dealers rarely know what the factory schedules.
Ciener was arrested for fraud and theft. Apparently, it was nothing new.

[Metal god]

This whole thing got me thinking . I'd have to say ( at least for me ) this all comes down to prices . If that same store had the best prices in town and was pretty close to internet prices . I'd probably put up with all kinds of crap to get a great deal every time . I mean the guy is not rude per-say just looking to make a buck how ever he can so if the prices were great I'd be all for him making that sale .

The fact he has higher prices means I can find what I need for less AND not have to put up with the used car salesman likeness .

[Tony Z]

I'm lucky! Many gun stores in my part of north central Pennsyltucky, and they're all appreciative of their customers. I'm an old phart (65), generally have an idea of what I want, but over the past years, have been guided a few times and for the better.

It helps my area to have many retail choices, with generally excellent selections.

[tangolima]

I live in the same town as metalgod does. There are a few stores I will not go in, till perhaps they are under new management.

Ain't that true good mom and pop shops are disappearing? What left are the not-so-good ones. Honest ones simply can't compete with the internet. The not-so-good ones have to do the not-so-good things to stay afloat. Perhaps. It is my theory anyway.

Actually it is foolish trying to stop the tide, instead of riding it. There are local stores doing just fine working with the internet. Those are the ones I frequent.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

If what you say is true, then you are not over-reacting.

However...

There's a difference if the shop owner is giving suggestions from his own experience(as in the lee Dies) or if in fact he is intentionally lying and misleading. Your buddies did not have to buy the 2#s of powder or the gun with the 1 in 12 twist. Did you not inspect your XD45 compact set before you paid your monies and filled out the transfer? Was it not noticeable that the set did not include the holster or extra mag? Did the owner tell you they were included or did you just assume they were? Were you mislead or just mistaken? We can whine about paying too much, but unlike taxes, we don't have to buy guns. While we have a choice of what we want to pay, we also need to know what we're buying before we put the money on the table. Otherwise it's our bad.

The shop may be high priced and the owner a ornery, egotistical bloke who thinks he's God's gift to gun shops.......but folks that buy from him still have a choice. My choice would be to walk away unless they had something I could not get anywhere else. High prices, poor customer service, little inventory and a reluctance to order non-stocked items is a big turn off to me, regardless of how much I want to support local small businesses. But if I buy a firearm without knowing what's in the box when I walk out the door, it's my fault, not the shop owner. If I buy something other than what I intentionally wanted because I'm too impatient to go somewhere else and get what I really want, shame on me. If my buddy suggests one firearm and a shop owner suggests another, I have to rely on my trust of either's knowledge or lack of such. If that trust is incorrect, than again, shame on me.

[octalman]

Brick & Mortar stores of all kinds are having a tough time competing with on-line. Struggling to keep the lights on is not going to make a gun store owner cheerful. You might talk to the owner directly about an incentive agreement for business you send him. Arrange something ahead of time instead of just telling a buddy to say you sent him in. Showing up with a few buddies that make a purchase might help imprint you face in the owner's memory.

Not sure what kind of service or "deals" you expect based on purchases over 1 1/2 years that generate enough income to pay for a couple hours of electricity.

[Metal god]

Your buddies did not have to buy ............. the gun with the 1 in 12 twist.

Nope but the guy explained how he did not need the 1-9 and had the 1-12 . My buddy is not as knowledgeable about such things and would not have even known to ask for something like that . So when the "OWNER" says you don't need that and as far as my buddy knows the guns are the same and he does not have to wait for the 1-9 because he's got the 1-12 in his hands . I'm sure it was quite hard to say no for him at that point .

Did you not inspect your XD45 compact set before you paid your monies and filled out the transfer?

No I asked if he had any in stock and he told me he just ordered them and they should be in with the next shipment . I asked how much , he gave the price . I had been looking at this firearm for a year+ so I knew what they were going for . I put a down payment down to hold the gun right then and there , and on the receipt it did not say Essentials pkge which for the price it should not be . Seemed up & up so far . Couple weeks pass gun still not in but I have the rest of the money so I pay it off . ( I have other XD handguns , LOVE them ) so I had no problem paying sight unseen . It came in about a week later and it was then upon first inspection I see there is no holster or mag pouch . I asked right away about that . I'm not going to get into the back and forth . Lets just say I excepted not getting them and took the firearm .

Could I have caused a big stick ? yep but I chose not to . The fact I was willing to except the transaction does not mean I have to like it or forget it happened . I just packed the experience away in the "that was kinda messed up" vault in the back of my mind just like all the other stuff . There seems to be a straw that broke the camels back and that appears to be the Lee dies interaction .

It was never just one thing that caused me to ask these questions here . It's several things over a couple years that finally got to me .

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by octalman

Brick & Mortar stores of all kinds are having a tough time competing with on-line. Struggling to keep the lights on is not going to make a gun store owner cheerful. You might talk to the owner directly about an incentive agreement for business you send him. Arrange something ahead of time instead of just telling a buddy to say you sent him in. Showing up with a few buddies that make a purchase might help imprint you face in the owner's memory.

Not sure what kind of service or "deals" you expect based on purchases over 1 1/2 years that generate enough income to pay for a couple hours of electricity.

He's asking for his local guy to give him a fair deal that he could have gotten for even less money at another store and they would have given him a magazine pouch and holster.

I remember looked at the XD's years ago and thought I saw all XD's came with the holster and crappy magazine pouch. The OP didn't even get either of them for $45 or $80 more.

The Redding dies over Lee dies for a beginner? No... you don't do that to a beginning reloader, especially when he was likely charging $90 for the Reddings. What do used Redding dies sell for these days? $40? Quite a loss if someone finds out reloading isn't for them.

I don't expect deals from my local guys because, like I've said, pricing in gun stores is meant for new shooters who don't shop on value, they shop on what they see in store and how it feels and what they've heard on TV, radio, etc.

"A Glock is $750? Sounds about right, everyone uses them, they're quality and dependable!"

We know better, we know used Glocks are just as good and cost half as much. We know where to go to get 33 rd Glock mags for less than $50.

Honestly, I get the feeling the FFL's may like us gun nuts personally because we speak the same language, but businessly, they hate us even though they see us about 10 times more a year then they do an average customer.

One of my FFL's, I've heard the owner say once when I went in to buy primers, referencing me when he saw me said, "Jesus, that guy gets a lot of transfers."

It's true, I've probably had him do 5 FFL transfers last year, all on used handguns that are no longer made. Besides a police trade in Glock with 3 mags and night sights, what does he expect me to do when I see guns that you can't order from a distributor? Giving him $125 bucks last year to call in do normal 4473 stuff and accept a package from UPS is unfair to him? He's not gonna have the guns in stock I wanted and if he does, he'll charge the same price as new ones.

After over a year he still has a used Hi Point in his case with $200 on the tag. Not joking.

I like him, he's been shooting longer than I've been living, and there's not much he can do to get more of my business other than saying thanks for being a customer for almost 4 years and I'm not saying I expect it from my two FFL's I frequent, but when the appreciation is shown, like if someone says, "I appreciate your business." I appreciate it to.

I'm sure I'm not alone in that.