tight bolt close

[McDowell300]

Hey new to the forum. Not an expert here but have been reloading for about 15 years. And I'm not trying to insult your or anyones intelligence. All these responses are very enlightening and educated but 308loader have you checked the chamber for any type of foriegn material? Had a buddies brand new Remy not chamber factory rounds and found metal grit in the chamber from the scope base holes I'm assuming that wasnt cleaned out well. Not trying to insult just a thought. As a maintenance guy by trade sometimes the easy stuff gets overlooked.

[F. Guffey]

Removing material from the top of the case holder, or some slight removal from the bottom of the .30-06 die let's you resize the bottom of the case farther down WITHOUT moving the shoulder back at the same time...
Forcing the brass farther into a .308 die to reduce the bloat WILL move the shoulder further back. Period.
Using a .30-06 die, the shoulder is much higher up, never contacts the shoulder on a .308 Win brass.

Jeep hammer, your are in luck, I am the only reloader that 'knows' what your just said.

F. Guffey

[308Loader]

pretty sure I understood what jeep said, and too reload, weird...

[jetinteriorguy]

Wow, nice stuff Jeephammer. Everything you said makes good sense and explains things in a very understandable manner. Thanks for this, a good learning session.

[JeepHammer]

Once the neck is squeezed in and NOT expanded, and the brass is trimmed back a little so neck issues are excluded,
Then it's usually feeler gauges under the brass to see if it's a side wall/shoulder issue...

When loading for a specific rifle, I have ZERO reservations about buying common dies and modifying the dies to fit the rifle. In fact, I encourage it.
$40 or $60 worth of common dies to get brass/rounds that specifically for your favorite shooter is cheap compared to several hundred dollars worth of 'Competition' dies to make rounds for that one specific rifle...
For rifles I own that have specific requirements, the dies set right behind the rifle in the safe.
I know if I have that rifle out, I'm going to reload the brass, so when the rifle goes back in the rack the dies come out, and that also keeps them from getting mixed in with other dies, case holders, etc.
The ammo for that specific rifle usually sits on the die box behind the rifle also.

.30-06 die is not by any means a perfect 'Bulge Buster', but it will push the bulge back in slightly further down without screwing up the shoulder.

The case holders seem to get thicker above the floor plate all the time...
This is a DEAD STOP for the die, no amount of screwing the die down, or 'Over Camming' the press will overcome a dead stop, you are only overstressing the press for no good reason...

The stupid/easy way to tell if it's a shoulder/case bloat issue is to stick feeler gauges between the brass & case holder.
This will bump the shoulder back AND push the case in a little more.
This narrows it to two issues you need to look at instead of 5.

I don't sell it as a 'Fix All', but it does narrow things down...

Sizing the body, especially lower body on .308 brass with a .30-06 die is an old loaders trick.
Most cases have a 'Parent' case they started from, parent usually being older & longer than the current version.
We .308 shooters just lucked out with a super common .30-06 dies, which are cheap and make for an excellent lower case sizer without screwing up the shoulder.

.308 & .30-06 have a taper to the case, so taking a little off the bottom of the .30-06 'Bulge Buster' die will allow you to undersize the brass if you have a REALLY tight chamber without screwing up the shoulder.
-- I ALWAYS use feeler gauges under the case if the factory .30-06 die doesn't do it out of the box.
This tells you if it's case holder or die reach/mouth profile.
-- I *Usually* shave the top of the shell holder when a .30-06 die doesn't do the job out of the box.
No sense in modifying the .30-06 die until you KNOW where the problem is...

A case roller (like a Case Pro 100) is as close to a perfect solution as is commonly available for lower cases, extraction rims & grooves, etc., But not everyone wants to shell out $1,200+ for a case roller!
Just hearing $1,200+ makes most home loaders shudder and I don't blame them!
It takes a LONG TIME at 200 or 300 rounds a year to see a reasonable cost/benefit return!
If $3 case holder & $20 .30-06 die does it for you, no need in more expensive equipment...

I ALWAYS come back around to the neck...
The ONLY reason for an 'Expander' ball is to drag brass up when the case has been excessively stretched, or if the neck sizer hole in the die is too small.

The big idea (and it was a HUGE idea!) Is when the ball enters the stretched & bloated case, the case is still stretched & bloated...
When you push swollen walls back in, the brass has to go somewhere.
When the stretched length is too long, and the shoulder in the dies pushes brass up, it closes down the neck a little.

It's metalworking basics.
When the case stretches in any direction, the brass gets thinner.
When the case is resized, the case walls can't get thicker, so the excess brass is forced UP, the only direction it can go...

When the shoulder is bumped back, the excess brass follows the shoulder in the die, moving up.
This closes down the neck hole right at the top bend of the shoulder.
The expander ball pulls that excess brass up into the neck where it can be trimmed away.

Guys that fire form, then neck size only have this figured out, they don't undersized the brass in the first place so it stretches even more on the next firing, so brass doesn't migrate nearly as much.
Orifice neck sizing (hole in dies that push brass back in to hold a bullet) is basically working a case that is chamber size, very little brass migration, neck sizing only required.

You chat get away with this if you are making ammo for different rifles in the same caliber, you MUST size the case, neck ball required to pull migrating brass up...

What I do recommend is seeing how far your necks are being crushed down!
Take the deprime/sizer ball out of your die, size a few cases and measure.
Most times you will be SHOCKED how much undersized the neck is!
This causes excessive work hardening and is a large contributing factor to neck cracking.

Honing out that neck in the die reduces the amount of crush, reduces work hardening.
If it's not broke, don't fix it..
If it's crushing like crazy, hone out that neck!

This takes a dead case, cut the neck off, drill out the primer/flash hole for a stick (wooden dowel rod) to pass through getting to the neck.
This dead case protects the rest of the die and serves as a guide for the dowel rod so you lap the neck out squarely.

Chuck up an appropriate size wooden dowel rod, sand the end down until it very tightly fits in the neck of the die.
Apply lapping compound, hone the neck a little...

When the dowel rod turns loose, cut the end off and sand down another tight fitting end.

Clean the die and test often, size a brass and measure the results.
The idea is to get a hole that sizes necks about 0.001" or so smaller INSIDE than your bullets.
Guys that want a little more bullet hold will want slightly smaller inside CASE necks and still let the sizing ball do its job.

Guys that want a little more bullet hold can chuck up the decapped/sizer ball rod and use lapping compound on the ball.
Be careful here, a little removal & measure/test!

Making dies fit YOUR rifle isn't fast, but it isn't difficult either!

[Unclenick]

I've put this illustration up in a number of posts before.

Originally Posted by Jeephammer

Removing material from the top of the case holder, or some slight removal from the bottom of the .30-06 die let's you resize the bottom of the case farther down WITHOUT moving the shoulder back at the same time...

Removing material from the top of the shell holder lets the whole die, including the shoulder, get closer to the case head, so the shoulder is also set back. Same with shortening the die. If the shortened length contacts the shell holder, it lets the die shoulder get closer to the head, too. I've done this several times and can confirm that's what happens. To size further down without setting the shoulder back, you need to lower the shell holder deck and get a die that was reamed too deeply by that same amount.

Originally Posted by cw308

On the stripped bolt is not a safety thing, it's you have a better feel of the sized case, your fired unsized case chambered in your rifle you will feel resistance when closing the bolt in most cases.

This is important. Human nerve endings can only discern a change in force of about 10% or greater. The light contact you try to detect with the case or with a headspace gauge is easily less than 10% of the ejector force or, with a cock-on-closing action, much less than the cocking force. Thus, actual first light contact becomes impossible to discern and you close the bolt too far to get an accurate reading.

Originally Posted by 308loader

"and the shell holder doesn't touch, or very nearly touch, the sizing die when sizing the cases"

No crack of light between shell holder and die base here.

That's fairly astonishing. In that instance, the way to set a shoulder back further, assuming that is required, is to use Mr. Guffey's feeler gauge technique. Cut a strip out of some 0.005" shim stock to fit into the shell holder under the case head or grind the edge of some half-inch wide gauges down to about .475 so they slip in, and you should be able to set the shoulder back that much further.

You are right that it's odd the setup worked before and doesn't work now. We must be missing something.

[F. Guffey]

pretty sure I understood what jeep said, and too reload, weird...

For years and years and years I have said I size cases for short chambers and I size cases for long chambers without grinding the top of the shell holder and or base of the die. I do not agree with the claim a reloader can grind the top of the shell holder and or base of the die without shortening the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder.

Grinding the top of the shell holder or base of the die increases the dies ability to shorten the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I have increased the ability of the die and shell holder to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head by shimming the case head off of the deck of the shell holder. It is something all reloaders should be able accomplish; With one die and one shell holder a reloader should be able to size cases for short chambers, at the same time the reloader should be able to size cases for long chambers. Any reloader/bumper that can 'bump' the length of the case .002" from the shoulder to the case head should be able to 'bump?' the case length from the shoulder to the case head to any length from -.010" for a short chamber to .016" for a long chamber.

I understand there are aids such as competition shell holders but there is no way to grind the die and or shell holder to size the base of the case without consideration given to the die at the shoulder; there is no way to give the shoulder of the die an exemption.

I started out as the fan of the feeler gage, nothing has changed.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

That's fairly astonishing. In that instance, the way to set a shoulder back further, assuming that is required, is to use Mr. Guffey's feeler gauge technique. Cut a strip out of some 0.005" shim stock to fit into the shell holder under the case head or grind the edge of some half-inch wide gauges down to about .475 so they slip in, and you should be able to set the shoulder back that much further.

I have always thought grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die was not necessary but there are members that had a lot of time invested in the bad habit that did not agree; I then modified the approach to a bad habit. I suggested a reloader that is grinding metal from the shell holder and or die should be able to keep up with the stock removal. Every .001" removed from the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die increases the ability of the die and shell holder to decrease the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .001".

And I said nothing about moving the shoulder back, I said nothing about bumping the shoulder back because it is impossible to move and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. There is nothing about finish the sizing process with a different shoulder than I started with.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

Subtract .02 and size to that for each individual rifle by moving die up or down.

No

I load for multiple 308's and multi multiple 223/5.56 . All three 308's are sized different and three of the AR's are sized different . I size on a single stage press and haven't adjusted my dies in years to size any of those cases regardless of how far I bump the shoulders .

All presses will have some flex/stretch/deflection when sizing a case , some more then others . I find that deflection seems to be more in the linkage between the ram and handle rather then the frame of the actual press .

Here is how much my Hornady deflects when sizing a 308 case . You must look for the gap/crack of light when sizing a case , not with a empty die and ram fully up .

No case in the die


When sizing a case


The best way to defeat press deflection is for the die and shell holder to make hard contact . When doing that with a standard shell holder the case gets sized to SAAMI minimum or smaller . The problem most of use run into with that is we often don't want are cases sized down that far and we need to back are die out to get the proper shoulder bump . How ever as soon as the die is no longer making contact with shell holder we introduce that press deflection back into the sizing process .

Depending on the case and or how work hardened it is . If your die and shell holder are not making hard contact . The cases can come out longer or shorter ( head to datum ) do to how much the press deflects on each individual case . When we're only talking .002 the press does not need to give much for it to translate to the sized case .

I feel you know all this and may even use what I'm about to suggest . So if a standard shell holder when making hard contact with the die sizes your case to 1.618 and you want it sized to 1.624 . How can you get that 1.624 bump with out adjusting the die ? That's when the Redding competition shell holders come in . They come in a set of five and allow you to size your cases longer then a standard shell holder while still making hard contact with the die . They allow you to size your cases longer in .002 increments from a standard shell holder . Those increments are marked on each shell holder in the set . When used as designed the consistency in which I can size my cases is still a little mind blowing to me . Most of my cases regardless of manufacturer or times fired ( up to 4 because I anneal ) come out +/- .0005 . some cases come out +/- .001 but not many .

This way if rifle A needs a shoulder bump to 1.626 and rifle B needs a shoulder bump to 1.624 . You just use the proper Redding competition shell holder with no need to adjust the die .

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/52...YaAnq0EALw_wcB

I just saw UN last post so I'll post a pic on the feeler gauge idea as well . This lifts the case up and allows you to size the case even shorter then a standard shell holder will allow . That would make for a mighty short chamber though .

[Unclenick]

Yep. Getting some load on the press helps length uniformity.


To Mr. Guffey's point:

I think die grinding and die neck honing and the like are usually done by folks matching a particular die to a particular rifle. Board member Hummer70 told me he had accumulated something like 158 308 Winchester dies over his decades of competing at or near the top of the heap. Most folks are better off with the shell holder sets for long chambers or feeler gauges for the short ones. But it's their choice.

[F. Guffey]

The best way to defeat press deflection is for the die and shell holder to make hard contact . When doing that with a standard shell holder the case gets sized to SAAMI minimum or smaller . The problem most of use run into with that is we often don't want are cases sized down that far and we need to back are die out to get the proper shoulder bump . How ever as soon as the die is no longer making contact with shell holder we introduce that press deflection back into the sizing process .

In the perfect world all cases would have the same resistance to sizing; that does not happen with mixed cases. Again: there are times the press wins and other times the case wins,

F. Guffey

[cw308]

Unclenick
On my Remington I remover the heavy spring on the ejector plunger to get a better feel . My fired case when the bolt is pulled to the rear just sits on the follower . I don't want to chase my cases . I double checked my chamber with a Go Gauge & shim to fine the measurement . I get the same measurement when using the stripped bolt . I do the same when seating the bullet with new lots , works out to be the same measurement on the Precision Mic.

[308Loader]

WOW! Thanks for the information overload guys. jeep I hope you have all this info in a copy paste format. If not, my god man, do your fingers hurt?

I am extremely sincere when I say thank you to you all. I know this is a thing that is regularly covered in this kind of post. I think a guy might become complacent in his reloading when everything is working "right". When it does not, well, we rediscover things we thought we might have known, but have discounted. Such as the crack of light, for some reason it did not occur to me to look when a case is in the press (die instructions didn't say to), or the mc dowel's post of something in the chamber, of course I looked, of course I ran a snake through it... but did I really look? (and yes I did), and when I looked did I really see?

let me digest all of this some. The old Lee press is sitting on a chair waiting to go to craigslist with some other stuff (maybe). The new press is in on its new mounts, tried tested and measured true... Impressed with its power to crush cases...I have much to learn and much to observe... again many thanks.

[cw308]

Reloadron , Unclenick & Metal good , great chart an pictures .

[F. Guffey]

let me digest all of this some. The old Lee press is sitting on a chair waiting to go to craigslist with some other stuff (maybe).

Maybe? As soon as someone recognizes the tools as being something that is considered reloading there is a big chance the items will not be allowed. I listed 40 items for sale, slowly over a period of a day there was nothing left/allowed for sale.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I just saw UN last post so I'll post a pic on the feeler gauge idea as well . This lifts the case up and allows you to size the case even shorter then a standard shell holder will allow . That would make for a mighty short chamber though

.

Not true, the shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head can increase the presses ability to overcome the cases resistance to sizing.

The reloader and smith use fixed gages like the go-gage, no go-gage and the field reject length gage; they are also locked into bumping the shoulder back. They all go for the .002" bump...and then they just quit.

The shell holder and die are designed to return the case to minimum length; minimum length is the same as full length sized. Again, I have always thought grinding the shell holder and or die is a bad habit. Anything that can be accomplished by grinding I can accomplish with a feeler gage.

When shortening the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head I can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .011" with a RCBS shell holder and a feeler gage. If I find a rifle with a short chamber I determine how short in thousands with formed cases. There is another way but at this rate we will never get around to discussing the method and or technique.

Same with competition shell holders; the maximum length that can be gained with the competition shell holder is .010", with a feeler gage I go straight to .016" for my long 30/06 chamber. I use a feeler gage to adjust the die off the top of the shell holder. Again, When I want that .002" clearance I adjust the die off the shell holder .014".

When forming and sizing cases for critical fits I use new and or once fired cases.


F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

Using a .30-06 die doesn't move shoulder back, only sizes the bottom of the .308 case.
This lets you determine if the issue is shoulder or case diameter.
.30-06 dies are *About* 0.0005" smaller at base than .308 dies in my experience, and the longer case body allows you to push the lower sides of a .308 brass in just a smudge WITHOUT setting the shoulder back.

Then you run the same brass through a .308 die to set shoulder.
If it fits, it was a bloated case, if it doesn't, it's a shoulder issue.
I use it as a diagnostic tool to differentiate between bloat & shoulder issues when I get a 'Hard Bolt Close' complaint.

I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel before I know what the actual issue is, this allows you to track down the actual issue.
No sense in ordering a 'Small Base' die when it's actually a shoulder problem...
No sense in ordering 'Custom' dies when it's a 'Small Base' issue.

By the way, a crap load of 'Small Base' dies will push case walls in further, but NOT reach farther down the case.
Shaving a .30-06 die bottom for .308 will get you farther down the case, it's basically a 'Custom' body die for $20.

Shaving a shell holder for ONE SPECFIC rifle, not something you want to do if loading for more than one rifle.

Honing the neck of a die keeps from overworking the brass.
Not everyone counts the number of reloads and discard brass, several just load until brass fails. Honing the neck just keeps from overworking the brass and makes it live longer without counting or annealing etc.

.....

For what it's worth, I agree with Mr. Guffy on the feeler gauges.
Feeler gauges are a really easy diagnostic tool for shoulders.
If your shoulder is just 0.001" or 0.003" etc too long, a shim under the case lets you get your shoulders 'Perfect'.

If you consistently need to feed that case into the die 0.003" further, simply shave 0.003" off the top of the case holder, dedicated that $3 case holder to that specific rifle.
It's MUCH cheaper than buying a set of shaved case holders when you only have one or two rifles that need specalized equipment.

[cw308]

Jeep hammer
Interesting fix with the 30-06 die , 45acp has bloat issues like that ,what would you recommend on a 45acp

Chris

[F. Guffey]

If you consistently need to feed that case into the die 0.003" further, simply shave 0.003" off the top of the case holder, dedicated that $3 case holder to that specific rifle.
It's MUCH cheaper than buying a set of shaved case holders when you only have one or two rifles that need specalized equipment.

Or the reloader has a .003" short chamber meaning the chamber is short .003" from the shoulder to the bolt face. 'OR' the reloader needs to anneal his cases.

If the chamber is short and the reloader is using a standard, common everyday die the chamber will be .002" shorter from the shoulder to the bolt face than a go-gage length chamber.

One more time: There are times the case wins and there are other times the press wins. When I want to know by how much I use a tension gage that measures deflection and measures in thousands (no tensions) and pounds.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

I better preface this to cw308 so it's not irrelevant to the thread...

The inexpensive way is an orifice die.
Just a 'Donut' in the die that sizes the case as it goes in the bottom & out the top.

There is something called a Case Pro 100 machine, it's a full straight line die plate roller that restores Rim diameter, extraction groove and pretty well resizes case to SAAMI specification from top to bottom.
It's about $1,200 last time I looked, so it's NOt for everyone.

Two benifits of roll sizing, cracked cases 'Chirp', the easiest crack inspection in the world!
The second, no case lube! No sticky lube issues at all since the case is already resized.

I do volume case processing, everything goes through a case roller here, it's the ONLY way I've fund to produce true SAAMI specification, since I sell to the public, the brass MUST be SAAMI and nothing less.
I roll size everything up to .308 for that lower case benifit.

I got a screaming good deal on 9mm brass a little while back, so I'm using a rotary (opposed to a straight line roller) and it spits SAAMI brass out at about 10,000 an hour, and that's all I can feed it, I'm sure it will do more, I just can't feed it faster yet...

[RC20]

Metal God: Beautiful pictures and illustrates the points really well.

JH: Thanks, now my brain hurts, at least I can follow it but it hurts.

[cw308]

J Hammer
That's hardcore . I have 1000 cases max. of 45acp if I have a few problem cases I'll dump them.

Chris

[JeepHammer]

Depends on your volume...
The Case Pro I have does about 1,300 straight wall cases an hour with optional (more $$$) drive.
Manual, it will do cases as fast as you can pull the handle.

For 1,000 cases, I would just run them through a bulge buster orifice die (about $30 last time I paid attention) and like you, scrap the cases that don't gauge out.

[F. Guffey]

The only time I disturb the case head is when firing.

Bargains on cases: I was in Yonkers, New York looking for a mill and vats when the owner of an iron and metal salvage yard made me a deal on brass by the pound/volume. Bing in New York I found the deal difficult to refuse, they did not give me time to sort and count but the deal involved 23.000 cases.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

Mr. Guffy, depends entirely on what cases were shot through AND what your volume is...

Feed ramps protruding into chambers cause bulges. Period.
The size of the bulge depends entirely on how thick the brass walls were to begin with, how far the case was unsupported and how much chamber pressure the round makes.
These are factors.

Rims get hammered out upon firing. Period.
The entire recoil force is applied directly to case head/rim against the bolt face.
Brass is softer than steel, recoil force is more than sufficient to move brass.
These are the factors.

Let's not forget some bolt faces do not cover the entire case head, this is unsupported brass.
Same is true with ejector slots or holes in the bolt face.
Bolt rims aren't even close to 'Die' sized for case rims, this allows the rim to expand under the hammering recoil creates. Doesn't matter if it's rifle or pistol, rims are allowed to expand, the gap between case and bolt rim allows for clean ejection.

The firearm makers have ZERO interest in reloaders. Their OBJECTIVE is to sell firearms that load, fire and eject FACTORY ammo, more or less SAAMI specification.
It's up to the Reloader to get his cases/loaded ammo back to some sort of specification/size/shape that will function.

*IF* YOUR particular firearm functions with YOUR specific ammo, then you win!
You beat the brass, you got a loaded round that functions, YOU WIN!

This is about the guys that DO NOT win...
Bulges that keep rounds from correctly chambering, round that cause 'Hard Bolt Close', etc.

Then there is brass recyclers, they have ZERO idea which firearm/chamber/magazine these cases are going to go through...
From super tight custom to WWI machine gun sloppy, and everything in between,
And in very large volume!

I do my very best to get the lower case rim, the extraction groove & lower case sides to SAAMI specification, this is the ONLY way I can give a 100% guarantee my cases WILL WORK 100% of the time.
No home reloader has to do what I do since they aren't trying to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, they ONLY have to make a case that works for THEM.
It doesn't have to be SAAMI at any point on the case to work for them, it only has to fit back into their specific chambers...

Hard bolt close, where this thread started,
Bullet seated too long, case neck too long, case neck too large in diameter, shoulder length (Datum Length) too long, case bulged or bloated, rim hammered out over size can all cause a hard bolt close.

Telling the guy to cram the case further into the die, or worse yet, buy a 'Small Base' die, custom shell (case) holder set, etc makes no sense to me UNTIL YOU FIND THE ACTUAL ISSUE.
In the case of the guy knowing it was a bulge in handgun cases, small volume, recommending a bulge buster die will kill bulges AND resize hammered extraction rims.

It 'Smears' brass but at a volume of 1,000 and not for resale this isn't an issue.
Since it's a one at a time process, if the case looks bad, simply toss it, but the majority of bulged cases will feed/fire without issue.
He'll be reusing cases that are not functioning now, so the bulge buster (about $30) will have him reusing cases that are now scrap for him, pretty well paying for itself in the 1,000 cases he has currently.

You haven't run into case rims that were hammered out, or you scrapped the cases that were oversized.
That's your process, and it works for you.
I can't let an oversized/distorted rim out into the general public, so the rolling process is a requirement for my process.

Precision costs money, how precise do you want to be?