38 super dooper

[Brutus]

Placed a bid on gunbroker for a Dan Wesson Pointman in .38 Super.
Assuming I win the bid I'm now tasked with getting stuff to feed it.
Being new to this caliber I have some questions.
What factory ammo has non-semi rimmed brass?
Which Starline brass is non-semi rimmed?
Will be getting an RCBS 3 die set what shell holder do I use?

Pistol will be used for target shooting and I have read 9mm .355Ø will work but that .357Ø bullets also work which provides better accuracy?


After the initial break in with factory ammo I will Probably start reloading with AA#7, Universal clays, Power pistol or AA#9. Powder recommendations would be appreciated, Thanks in advance.

[74A95]

rimless 38 Super factory ammo: https://atlantaarms.com/38-super/ Look for the ones with Super Comp in the name.

Starline rimless 38 Super = 38 Super Comp, 38 TJ.

Shell holder: standard 38 Super / 9mm Luger shell holders can work, though some companies suggest a 223 shell holder. Check to see which one RCBS recommends. Just something to keep in mind, if you shoot only rimless, the 223 or whatever they recommend might be fine, but if you end up with semi-rimmed cases in your inventory, they might not fit a 223-like shell holder.

Which bullet provides the best accuracy will depend on your barrel. You'll probably have to try several. The larger diameter is no guarantee of better accuracy. Try the Hornady 125 grain HAP. It tends to produce excellent accuracy with a wide range of powders.

Powders: Some suggestions here for high speed: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-the-38-super/

My Kart barrel likes N105 with a wide range of bullets at various charge weights.

[Brutus]

Thanks for the reply. Standard brass has a .406 dia. rim.
What diameter is the rimless?

[74A95]

.386"

[Brutus]

Thanks again, to my way of thinking a .020" smaller rim shouldn't make a difference with the standard #39 shell holder.

[HiBC]

It remains to be seen what works for you. The 38 Super breech face provides working clearance for a .406 rim.
That's close enough to 10mm and 40 S+W.

Certainly 38 Super Comp will work fine. The point is working better in the magazine.

It might be that for the ultimate gnats posterior performance you will want to buy and fit another extractor for 38 Super comp .
Keep the original if you have an occasion to shoot 38 Super.
I'm not saying its a requirement. It might be optimum.
124 gr Montana Gold bullets are popular for range work.
The little I know is about a comp gun running high pressure loads. YMMV,among the workable powders are Power Pistol and Longshot..but my brother settled in on HS-6 after working with the other two.

[Unclenick]

With the shell holder, look to see how much clearance the edge of the upper slot has around the extractor groove. Some makes of shell holders fit some cartridges tighter than other makes do. For that reason, you could find, say, a CH4D shell holder fits better than a Redding or that a Lee fits better than either of them or vice-versa all around. You could call and ask the makers how theirs does with the 38 Super Comp, reduced rim round.

Make     38 Super Shell 
         Holder Number

CH4D           #3
Hornady        #8
Lee           #19
Lyman         #12
RCBS          #39  (note: One reference suggests #16 for Super Comp, only.)
Redding        #5

{NOTE: I had to edit this twice, as Lee and RCBS had changed numbers since my original reference chart was published.}

[RickB]

Why the desire for rimless?

American Rifleman did a test of .355", .356", and .357" bullets, and they found best accuracy was most strongly correlated with a long bearing surface, which suggests bullet weight and shape are more important than diameter.

[Brutus]

Ah, so much to learn about a newly acquired caliber, this is why I love reloading. Reason behind my questions are mostly derived from tidbits I have read here and there about the idiosyncrasies of said cartridge and consequently the reason for this post. Thanks to all for your input.

[74A95]

Rimless has the benefit of smoother feeding because the semi-rim increases drag and requires more force to strip it from the magazine. From single stack magazines, rimless brass feeds at a higher angle for the first 5-6 rounds from a full magazine because the semi-rim of regular 38 Super brass encourages nosedive.

[rc]

You can fire 9mm largo/9x23/38 super brass in a 38 super pistol. If the chamber is large 9mm largo brass may split.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by rc

You can fire 9mm largo/9x23/38 super brass in a 38 super pistol. If the chamber is large 9mm largo brass may split.

9mm Largo and 9X23 are terrible recommendations. Which 9X23 are you suggesting? 9X23 Winchester, 9X23 Largo (aka 9mm Largo), 9x23 Steyr (aka 9mm Steyr)?

9mm Largo cases are longer (.910") than 38 Super (.900"), and might jam the gun. 9mm Largo and 9X23 Winchester are both tapered cases and might not fit in the chamber or stick in the chamber when fired. The 38 Super is a cylindrical case.

[Brutus]

Thanks for the tips 74A95,
rc lives in California so I suppose he has to shoot whatever Pelotzi & Fienstien approve of, although I've heard 9x23 is one heck of a Condor killer.
Thought getting a Super was a step up from the punybellum. 9x23 has to be hard on the gun. If I want to shoot magnums I'll just grab a .44 or .357 revolver, better tool for the job in my opinion.

[RickB]

Rimless has the benefit of smoother feeding because the semi-rim increases drag and requires more force to strip it from the magazine. From single stack magazines, rimless brass feeds at a higher angle for the first 5-6 rounds from a full magazine because the semi-rim of regular 38 Super brass encourages nosedive.

Never had a feed failure in my single stack Super.
Some say rimless is better in a hi-cap, as 30 rimmed rounds don't stack as well as rimless, but when I was still shooting USPSA, I knew at least as many guys still shooting conventional Supers as rimless variations.

Where I have had issues is reusing brass that was previously loaded very hot, leaving a bulge near the extractor groove that a normal sizing die won't iron out.

[HiBC]

Do what makes you happy! I like the Super.
I have a little experience with a Bar-Sto barreled 5 in Govt, a top drawer vintage single stack race gun,and a double stack comped,mini red dot build on a Caspian frame.

Your opening post said primarily target shooting. Agreed,the Super slaps the steel around better than the "punybellum"

You can get once fired 9mm brass by the 5 gallon bucketful pretty cheap.
If you are competing,you have minimal time to pick up brass.You can recover enough 9mm to break even.You will lose 38 Super.
That gets significant if you are paying for new Starline.

I don't want to get off in the weeds arguing handloads vs factory loads for SD.
Lets don't. Carry what you want.The ammo companies work harder at 9mm SD loads.

The available choices for Super are somewhat limited.

Enjoy your Super! I have another in progress,as time allows. Mine will be on a Caspian double stack. I scored an unused STI Trubore comp barrel in Commander length. I'll probably mill a mini red dot into the slide.Eyes are getting old.

I'm wondering,though. Colorado has a 15 round restriction,which presents a problem.I can't just order the available 17 rd mags.

I already have the 38 Super barrel. I can get 15 rd EAA 10 mm magazines. HMMM . There is a 9mm Dillon? Its sort of like a .357 Sig but made from a bottlenecked 10mm instead of a 40 S+W.

Breech face will work. Seems a bit crazy,but....maybe.

FWIW,I'd order Starline 38 Super Comp 1000 pcs at a time.As I mentioned,I'd order another extractor to tune and tension to the rimless brass. Keep the original to pop in when you shoot factory loads.
Look at Montana Gold for bullets to order.

Your bullet dia choices will be more about bullet design.Many 357 bullets are designed for cylinders rather than mags and feed ramps.It can takesome hair pulling,mag tuning,etc to get themto feed. Big flat sticky lead ogives don't help.A crimp groove in the wrong place can be annoying.

I'd probably look between the 124 gr,130 gr,and 147 gr. Lasercast 147's MAY have potential,but I have not tried them.

[Jim Watson]

Where I have had issues is reusing brass that was previously loaded very hot, leaving a bulge near the extractor groove that a normal sizing die won't iron out.

It might not be wise to reuse brass that distorted.
But if you just must, there are options.
Roll sizers are effective but expensive.
A push through bulge buster would work on the rimless variant.
.38 TJ is rimless and has a broader than standard extractor groove so the sizing die will rub most to all of the straight wall.

[Brutus]

Thanks for all the feedback folks,
FFL forgot to fax his info so the gun hasn't shipped yet, hopefully tomorrow.
Received my Starline +P brass which isn't rimless mic's out at .400 dia.
Got my #39 shell holder which they sent in a huge box, go figure.
All I need is the dies and I'm ready to go, should be here tomorrow.
Checked out some prices on factory ammo, holy mackeral, $32 bucks a box for 50 rounds of Winchester target stuff. jeez for that kind of money I'd expect at least a .250 grain bullet.
At any rate I'm getting excited. Can't wait to get to the range and tell my buddy to put that punybellum away while a real man steps up to the plate.

[74A95]

All that and you went with semi-rimmed? Why?

[Brutus]

Well I'm new to this caliber and thought the Starline +P brass was rimless.
Guess in my old age research doesn't sink in like it used to.

[HiBC]

If you read the description on the Starline website it explains everything.

The 38 Super cartridge has some history and development behind it.

There was a lower pressure 38 Auto,then the "hot rod" 38 Super.Something about the need to shoot through cars in the 30's gangster and prohibition days.
Nonte changed the headspace to the case mouth from the semi-rim against the hood.

The competition folks liked the 38Super vs the 45 ,both for capacity and gas pressure for comps. A problem was making "Major Caliber".The rules favored the 45 ACP.
Folks were hot rodding past SAAMI. The unsupported chambers of the 1911 resulted in goose egged and blown brass. Enter the ramped barrel with a fully supported chamber.
Then doublestack 38 Supers came along.

I can't say for sure,I don't know,but I think factory loads for 38 Super are designated +P to distinguish them from 38 Auto.The 38 Auto guns can't take Super pressures.

What you ordered will be semi-rimmed.In a single stack gun it will probably work fine.
Its the Starline "38 Super Comp" that is rimless. The double stack folks solve some stacking problems with it.
If I had a new 38 Super and was getting set up to shoot handloads,I would order all 38 Super Comp rimless and stay with it.

Proper extractor fit and tension is critical to 1911 function.An extractor can't be ideal for both a .406 rim and a.386 rim. You might want to pick one.
I don't know your gun.The standard 1911 design is a non-ramped barrel which does not fully support the brass.

If that is what you have,please DO NOT get caught up in pursuing "Major Caliber" loads the competition folks might use. Those get up around 40,000 psi and the guns are modified with supported chambers and compensators that delay the slide.

[74A95]

The old loading of a 130 grain bullet at 1300 fps produced a power factor of 169, which exceeds the 165 threshold for that requirement. Several factory loads from boutique manufacturers will make Major with 124 grain bullets.

Handloaders can select from several powders that will make Major power factor (it's Major Power Factor, not Major Caliber) at standard pressure that does not exceed SAAMI limits. See the second link in post #2. Standard pressure loads with Vit N105 push a 124 grain bullet to 1450 fps, which makes a power factor of 180.

The actual difference between the compensated 38 Super and compensated 45 Auto is the bullet weight. 38 Supers run lighter bullets. If the 45 and 38 Super use the same bullet weight and powder in a compensated gun, the 45 will have less muzzle rise.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballist...ompensated-38/

[HiBC]

Interesting article. It makes some valid points
I'm not a competition shooter. You obviously have this stuff down.

A couple of questions:

Why did they lower the power factor from 180 to 165?

And do you think its a bad idea to tell a new shooter/loader who A) Has a big 38 Super grin on his face as he talks "punybellum"
And B) likely has a new gun with a non-ramped barrel And C)Isn't quite sure about semi-rimmed vs rimless brass....

To be aware that on the internet he can find lots of 38 Super loads that get used in ramped/comped open guns ? And that these loads run 40 k psi + ??

Or that those loads may be a bad idea for a box stock 1911 38 Super?

I don't know,I guess,so I'm just asking. Thanks

[74A95]

I'm not sure why they downgraded the power factor. I only know of rumors. Some folks have suggested that they recognized it was tough on some guns and felt there was no need for that. Keep in mind that many competitive shooters shoot more in one year through one gun than most folks shoot through all their guns in a lifetime. With use, parts break, and if they were complaining that they were forking out too much cash for parts, there would be motivation to reduce the required power factor. But I'm speculating.

It's okay to caution people. As always, the best advice is to stay with data published by the manufacturers.

The information in the second link in post #2 was based on published load data by three manufacturers, so it's within the safety margin built into SAAMI specs. And, those load were fired in a box stock 1911 with an unsupported barrel. It can be done safely if using the right components, which the author addresses. It's probably recommended reading for anyone who loads 38 Super.

Lots of folks don't know about rimless 38 Super brass. I'll bet most 38 Super shooters don't know that regular 38 Super brass is semi-rimmed.

Well, the 38 Super is more powerful than the "punybellum", so you can't fault a guy for enjoying that.

[Jim Watson]

I shot IPSC at Power Factor 175 with .45 and 9mm Miller.

I suspect the Major power factor was reduced to 165 to make 9mm P Open feasible and maybe to keep from beating up the .40 Limited guns.

I would avoid the top Shooting Times loads. Depending on one brand of brass to avoid bulging into the feed ramp is pushing too hard for me.

[Brutus]

Didn't mean to imply that I wanted to hot rod this gun, as stated earlier if I want to shoot magnums I'll grab a magnum. My interest is purely in the realm of target shooting and enjoying the additional caliber on my loading bench. I refer to the 9mm. as the punybellum as I don't reload for it, mainly because the short puny cases are too small for my fat pudgy fingers, and ammo is cheap enough not to bother.

Additionally of the half-dozen 9's I've owned none could produce the accuracy of a 1911 in .45ACP. Closest has been the CZ 85 combat I now shoot but even then it doesn't quite match up. I attribute this to the short powder column. My experience with the
.40 short&weak (here I go again another synonym to irritate people )
bears this out as it's another caliber whose accuracy doesn't compete with the 10mm. Just my opinion.