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February 18, 2012, 10:15 AM | #26 | |
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As Bartholomew Roberts said, "Anybody who thinks that their firearm is a death ray is going to be surprised at the way the robber not only moves very quickly; but keeps moving and shoots back. They later found him collapsed about a block away from the store; but during the confrontation on video, he shows no signs he has been hit repeatedly". Again, some good training will likely correct some false expectations. |
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February 18, 2012, 10:25 AM | #27 |
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Thinking and upgrade to fireams is coming..
most likely a auto loading 20ga??
Only suggestion would be to isolate the cashier position as a refuge. He survived but was lucky. |
February 18, 2012, 09:13 PM | #28 | |
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The target was sprinting with his weapon (which he also fired) pointed at the store owner. The good guy put two rds. into his torso using a shooting technique that was reasonably sound under the circumstances. If you'd ever seen participants using simunitions dancing, dodging, and ducking, and forgetting to shoot back (because they're anticipating being hit by non lethal ammo?, then you might give the store owner, who stood his ground in the face of real bullets, a little break here. His error was tactical, since he didn't shoot when Bubba was standing there with a gun in his hand representing all the threat (if not more) necessary for the use of deadly force. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
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February 18, 2012, 10:56 PM | #29 | |
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Also notice he did not 'move and shoot' while the bad guy DID 'move and shoot' and missed while getting hit four times! So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea. Sadly as it says later, "This is the same store where the original owner was killed by a robber in 1994. " The area must be prone to robberies. Deaf
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February 19, 2012, 12:32 PM | #30 | |
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February 19, 2012, 12:45 PM | #31 |
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jimbob86. Quote.
3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon ..... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would the same go for .40 .45 ect. ? |
February 19, 2012, 01:10 PM | #32 |
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I am glad the store owner made out ok,however someone has to explain better tactics.Too much of his body was needlessly exposed.
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February 19, 2012, 01:46 PM | #33 |
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Is the incident not a good argument for high cap mags. Stopping to reload in a situation like that would be fatal.
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February 19, 2012, 05:08 PM | #34 | |
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Only time I ever saw a long drawn out gun fight was on TV. The one in Olongapo happened 50' from me and by the time I registered shots being fired it was over. In Chicago it was the same thing. 3 shots fired one man down and the other long gone from the scene by the time we all showed by the guy who was down. In Washington DC I never saw the shooter, just heard 3 shots and then the streets were empty and I do mean empty. Never saw a cop, don't know if anybody even called them. 5 minutes later street traffic was back to normal and nobody even mentioned the shots. So much for gun free cities.
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February 19, 2012, 06:08 PM | #35 |
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Roberts,
It was not a zero deflection shot. It was a 70 to 90 degree deflection (right angles) shot. And that is the hardest way to shoot at someone. His real fault was trying to shoot (and just miss) while running by the attendant. And of course shooting one handed while moving is difficult at best, and really hard when you are getting hit from stem to stern in the process. Deaf
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February 19, 2012, 06:33 PM | #36 | |
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More energy and a bigger wound diameter would stop an assailant quicker than less energy and a smaller wound diameter, placement being equal. Hollow points at max velocities are better than FMJ at minimum..... but it's still a handgun and therefore underpowered. |
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February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM | #37 | |
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February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM | #38 |
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Someone claiming to be cousin to one of the thugs is commenting on the article and telling the world about the injustice of it all. Good times.
Noteworthy that the guy who killed the previous owner was convicted and sentenced to death in 1994. He is still on death row. I think this result is more satisfactory. Certainly cheaper and better.
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February 19, 2012, 09:24 PM | #39 |
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good point ^
it is bothersome also if this nitwit isn't charged with attempted murder! we all know what would've happened if that 'soda' shot had terminated the life of the good guy...
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February 19, 2012, 09:50 PM | #40 |
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I do think its important that states pass laws that forbid the assailants and or their families from filing a civil suit when there is a lawful DGU.
No matter how brutal the assailants are, no matter what heinous crimes they committed in the past or were in the process of committing, there is always someone who will get on the evening news and wail and cry "mah baby ! He shot mah baby !" Claims of vigilantism. Friends and relatives of the assailants will get on TV and claim he was gunned down in cold blood, and of the defender they will say “they took matters into their own hands.” I don’t think it’s good tactics to yell “freeze” And in this case where the store owner did just that and everything is on tape, it didn’t stop the relatives of the assailants from starting their chirping anyway… all he did was put himself at risk. |
February 19, 2012, 11:45 PM | #41 | |
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At one time moving while shooting was all the rage in shooting courses. Not so much now. I do have to admit that Gabe Suarez does an impressive job shooting on the move, but he's moving laterally. With a little practice, you can keep the gun on target before you go buy it, while you're going by, and after you've gone by. Two hands from left to right, and one handed right to left. Moving right at the target can be very aggressive and extremely intimidating. It might have it's applications, though moving toward incoming fire isn't one of them! Last edited by Nnobby45; February 19, 2012 at 11:57 PM. |
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February 20, 2012, 12:00 AM | #42 | |
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Anybody else see that one coming? |
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February 20, 2012, 12:23 AM | #43 |
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No one talked about the tactics of the robber Michael Ozier. Rushing at his opponent gun blazing didn't seem to work out too well for him.
I'm definately glad that the clerk and the store owner Wes Hahn were uninjured. Aside from putting his hands up and surrendering, it probably would have been better for Ozier to try to seek concealment from which to fire from. Maybe there really isn't any cover in a narrow store like that. It seems to me that the bullets were going to zip right through coolers, six packs of beer and displays of beef jerky. But charging right at Hahn didn't work so well, he's lucky to be alive. Is Hahn standing in the doorway to his back office? Maybe another tactic would have been to not completly leave his office, he would have at least have had a door jam to be partially behind. |
February 20, 2012, 01:36 AM | #44 | |
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February 20, 2012, 01:59 AM | #45 | |
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Not to mention.... You never know what, exactly, will be incapacitating. Based on my experience with big game, small game, upland game, and any other living creatures I've shot; I can tell you that every animal is different. By "every animal", I mean each individual, not just each species. Sometimes, the refusal to die is due to physiology. Other times, it's just that that particular individual has an incredible amount of fight left in them. There is no guarantee that ANY shot will be effective. Even head shots can fail. Center of Mass? Hah! That's like shooting at the general area of the front end of a car, and thinking that a single shot can stop the engine instantly. You might get lucky; but, generally, it just doesn't happen.
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February 20, 2012, 08:23 AM | #46 |
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I heartily agree with the above poster. I have noticed that when someone is shoot who is not expecting it they seem to become incapacitated much faster than someone who is expecting it, or amped up for some other reason.
4 for 4 on a moving target is as good as it gets. We would all like the bad guy to stop as soon as possible but that might be the best you can hope for.
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February 20, 2012, 08:56 AM | #47 | |
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However, if I had decided I was going to run right at and then past the storeowner towards that exit while he shot at me, I would definitely be moving and shooting. |
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February 20, 2012, 08:59 AM | #48 |
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Frank has it right. My son shot two deer this year with a 30.06 and hit both of them in exactly the same spot. Both weighed within 5 lbs of each other were the same weight and age. One ran 20 feet and the other ran 400 yards.
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February 20, 2012, 09:58 AM | #49 |
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This is reality. It doesn't always work out the way it does at IDPA when lives aren't at stake and no one is shooting back.
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February 20, 2012, 07:40 PM | #50 | ||
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And that's the main part. FOF uses simulation guns (and I've been in TWO FOF classes were we used them.) But simulation guns don't feel like 9mm slugs. Do note, while I've been shot with simulation guns and airspofts, I've never been shot with a 9mm! but I still would rather be shot with the simulations!!! I have no doubt the accurate incoming fire made a big difference in the bad guys return fire. Quote:
Deaf
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