380ACP, Whats a good SD load?

[wild cat mccane]

Before Shootingthebull there was Loki. You have to Google Way Back Machine to see his tests, but in many ways there were the best .380 testing.

http://web.archive.org/web/201210071.../gel380acp.htm

[JoeSixpack]

Hmm Im noticing something.. I wonder how critical barrel length is? I mean some of these pocket guns have say 2.5 in barrels vs say 2.7, 2.8, 3in

I've noticed that some of these loads looking at difference sources have different results sometimes strikingly different.

also does anyone know if they make Hornady FTX in a 50 round box? or speer gold dots?
I like to shoot about a 100 rounds of carry ammo to be sure of function.
But in 25 round boxes (70-90cr) man.. that gets expensive and quick.

[wild cat mccane]

I haven't seen 50 rnd boxes of premium .380

[Rangerrich99]

After much online research and a bit of my own testing I chose Critical Defense for all of my in-town carry calibers (.380 auto, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 auto). They aren't the best performers in every performance category, but they appear to be at or near the top in most performance categories in those calibers.

[dean1818]

Duplicate

[dean1818]

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

Which one? I see one by shooting the bull and it expanded great but only went 8 or 9in

lucky gunner tests showed the opposite, unreliable expansion and over penetration.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

This is a great link,(is this the one that you are referring to?) page up and page down to find the 380. It gives a fair analysis.
Also remember, that if you chose a LCP with a 2 3/4 barrel, you will get 5-7% less velocity, vs. the tested Glock 42, with a 3.25 inch barrel

Any velocity decrease will equate to less penetration, less kinetic energy, and probably less expansion.

As you can see, the choices for 380, that reliably expand, and meet 12-18 inch, FBI suggested penetration are few. The SIG VCrown seems to be the best of the lot.

Many people choose the 380 because it fits a pistol that they can shove in a pocket. It isnt cheaper than the 9mm (9mm Practice ammo is 25-30% cheaper, which adds up over time, if you practice) it doesnt recoil less than some of the smaller 9s.

If you dont pocket carry, its more of a moot point. When I started to CCW, I purchased a smaller CM9. I pocket carried for about 6 months. After thinking about pocket carry and some of the limitations, I moved to IWB only. I do know a few people that use a 380 or a 38 in the pocket as a BUG, which I have also considered


There are trade offs.

For me, a few thoughts on the 380, or any other caliber, in the pocket

1) How do you draw when you are sitting down?
2) How do you draw if your main hand is injured?
3) How do you draw if you are in a tussle, and the fight is on the ground?
4) Practice the Tueller drill, can you do this from a pocket draw?

If you can answer positively on all 4 of these questions, you are a better man than me.


I think everyone agrees a 22 shot is more effective to the heart, than a 45 to the knee. Its documented that police officers actually hit ANY part of the bad guy, only around 30% of the shots fired. They miss the target 70% of the time!
Its due to the immediate stress(and lack of realistic training). (Some of the friends I shoot with drink TONS of coffee before they go to the range, to help recreate tension and stress)

The reality is, under stress, those slow, very accurate shots at the range, just arent going to happen. IF (a big IF) you ever find yourself in a defensive situation, you may HAVE to count on a NEAR MISS to end the fight. (In those cases, I want a bullet that expands and has enough energy)

Its a free country and my opinion is worth half of 2 cents.........

Carry what you like, THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET, if you are a CCWer REALISTICALLY practice, practice, practice. (Fire for a softball size group, with speed, then try to reduce)
A larger gun, left at home isnt protection..

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by dean1818

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

This is a great link,(is this the one that you are referring to?) page up and page down to find the 380. It gives a fair analysis.
Also remember, that if you chose a LCP with a 2 3/4 barrel, you will get 5-7% less velocity, vs. the tested Glock 42, with a 3.25 inch barrel

Ya that's the one, Like I said given the HST's as an example the they have a wonderful rep in more powerful calibers but 2 tests I've seen them in they preformed different.
Shooting the bull's test out of a Taurus TCP (dunno barrel length) it under penetrated to 8-9 inches, but had consistent impressive expansion.

Lucky gunners test however out of the glock 42 showed over penetration and weak unreliable expansion.. 2 tests with opposite results..

Originally Posted by dean1818

As you can see, the choices for 380, that reliably expand, and meet 12-18 inch, FBI suggested penetration are few. The SIG VCrown seems to be the best of the lot.

Really I was thinking the Hornady FTX looked like the best all arounder.
Reliable although mild expansion, meets minimum penetration.

The XTP looks good also but unreliable expansion.

Originally Posted by dean1818

Many people choose the 380 because it fits a pistol that they can shove in a pocket. It isnt cheaper than the 9mm (9mm Practice ammo is 25-30% cheaper, which adds up over time, if you practice) it doesnt recoil less than some of the smaller 9s.

Im not too worried about the slight increase in practice ammo.
It's not a gun im gonna shoot often, probably won't see more then 50 rounds per range session, What really sucks is the defense ammo seems to only come in 25rnd boxes unlike 9mm where you can sometimes get LE 50 round boxes.

The ammo companies figure they can package defense ammo in 25's and charge twice as much.. talk about milking the consumer.

Originally Posted by dean1818

If you dont pocket carry, its more of a moot point. When I started to CCW, I purchased a smaller CM9. I pocket carried for about 6 months. After thinking about pocket carry and some of the limitations, I moved to IWB only. I do know a few people that use a 380 or a 38 in the pocket as a BUG, which I have also considered

There are trade offs.

For me, a few thoughts on the 380, or any other caliber, in the pocket

The .380 I have coming is a Taurus 738 TCP.
I paid 137 for it NEW, and since I already have some other guns coming it's only gonna cost me an extra 5 on transfers.. I could not say no.
Like I said I didn't even want a .380 but it is smaller and lighter then the already pocketable Taurus 709 I have

The .380 will probably be used for times when I don't wanna get fully dressed but need to make a quick run, or if I need absolute concealment.
I thought the 709 would make a good gun for that but I found it's kinda heavy for sweat pants even though it's small and light.
Hopefully the TCP does better iirc it's nearly half the weight.

In most cases it would not be a primary gun.

Originally Posted by dean1818

1) How do you draw when you are sitting down?
2) How do you draw if your main hand is injured?
3) How do you draw if you are in a tussle, and the fight is on the ground?
4) Practice the Tueller drill, can you do this from a pocket draw?

1. I can but it's slower
2. I can't I admit, But I don't think I can draw my primary gun either under those circumstances.
3. Probably can't if you have both hands busy with the attacker
4. That's tough even with a belt holster, Im a bit slower on pocket draw but I always assumed if I am ever in a SD situation I'll at best be drawing and firing one hand anyway as I'll probably have to fend off with my left hand.
So no I would not be overly confident of passing that drill with a pocket gun but the odds's ain't great pocket carry or not.

Believe me I get it, These little pocket guns are a compromise, For the longest time I resisted them completely.

Originally Posted by dean1818

The reality is, under stress, those slow, very accurate shots at the range, just arent going to happen. IF (a big IF) you ever find yourself in a defensive situation, you may HAVE to count on a NEAR MISS to end the fight. (In those cases, I want a bullet that expands and has enough energy)

In most situations I suspect I'll be firing 1 handed at hip level into the belly and chest of my attacker.
I really think most situations are going to be at bad breath distances.

[roashooter]

I really think most situations are going to be at bad breath distances.
 

situation awareness failure??....

[LockedBreech]

Originally Posted by Carmady

I use American Eagle 95gr FMJ.

same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dean1818]

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

Really I was thinking the Hornady FTX looked like the best all arounder.
Reliable although mild expansion, meets minimum penetration.

The XTP looks good also but unreliable expansion.

You may be right..... if done with a 5 inch barrel it could hit the FBI minimums

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

1. I can but it's slower
2. I can't I admit, But I don't think I can draw my primary gun either under those circumstances.
3. Probably can't if you have both hands busy with the attacker
4. That's tough even with a belt holster, Im a bit slower on pocket draw but I always assumed if I am ever in a SD situation I'll at best be drawing and firing one hand anyway as I'll probably have to fend off with my left hand.
So no I would not be overly confident of passing that drill with a pocket gun but the odds's ain't great pocket carry or not.

IWB allows for draw from weak hand and from sitting

I also think that a draw while on the ground in a "tussle" is hard as a IWB, but doable

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by roashooter

situation awareness failure??....

Nope, I live in outskirts of a city, close contact with strangers is a constant thing.

Criminals don't telegraph their intent.. when do you draw when someone gets within 10 yards of you?

Situational Awareness is just being aware of who is around you, It does not give you telepathic abilities to read minds and some will attack you with a smile.

The ol' Situational Awareness bit is for people in denial a bad situation can happen to them.

[dean1818]

C'mon Joe ...... you arent telepathic?

You are from Ohio!!!!

(Im from Columbus)

Go Buckeyes..... fear the nut!

[roashooter]

Situational Awareness is just being aware of who is around you, It does not give you telepathic abilities to read minds and some will attack you with a smile.

I must have "telepathic abilities".....never been attacked by someone smiling....but you would think living in a major metropolitan city...I would have many opportunities for "bad breath encounters"....just guess I did not get the memo...

[JoeSixpack]

So if you live in a city then you must have people pass by you in close range constantly.
What happens when one of them turns on you at arms length?

And how many times have you been attacked roa?

Im not sure if there is enough room here though Maybe you could start another thread called Roashooters encounters and list your experiences I love hearing stories maybe I can learn something.

[roashooter]

And how many times have you been attacked roa?

0...because I am "telepathic"....

[dean1818]

Deleted

[reteach]

Joe,
I started carrying a Glock 42 because my of arthritic hand. I agree with your thought about a longer barrel giving the .380 a bit of a boost. The 42's barrel is 3.25 inches. I have to say, I don't have any trouble carrying the 42 in my front pants pocket. I do wear loose fitting pants or shorts.

I read the reviews in Lucky Gunner and Shooting the Bull, then shot Hornady CD, Fiocchi Extrema, Federal Hydra Shok, and Speer Gold Dot. I also shot a half dozen different fmj's. They all worked fine in my pistol. I settled on Speer because, of all the hollow points, it has the easiest recoil, and that's what I needed. I think Speer's penetration is good enough. And to answer another of your questions, you can buy Speer in 50 round boxes.

[JoeSixpack]

Can you get me the UPC off the box? I looked and could'nt find speer gold dots in 50 rnd boxes.

Looks like they have good expansion but come up a inch or so short on penetration.
pretty consistent though it looks like.

[JC57]

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

Can you get me the UPC off the box? I looked and could'nt find speer gold dots in 50 rnd boxes.

Looks like they have good expansion but come up a inch or so short on penetration.
pretty consistent though it looks like.

50 round box, 380 Auto Speer Gold Dot LE Duty Ammunition, 90 grain Hollow Point, product# is 53606.

I don't have a UPC number but I PMed you some more info.

You can also find Federal Hydra Shok 90gr (P380HS1G) and Federal HST 99gr (P380HST1) in 50-round boxes.

At one point you could find Winchester Ranger ammo for .380 in a 50-round box because I have a box of it stored away someplace.

My personal choice for my Bersa Thunder 380 is Buffalo Bore 95 gr JHP and 100 grain hard-cast flat nosed lead. The ones I have a are from a while back and they were using the same bullets as the Speer Gold Dots. They load it a little hot but use a low flash powder which makes a big difference in muzzle flash in low light, if you care about such things. Those are only available in boxes of 20. I think I ran about 4 boxes of each through to ensure functioning and then loaded up my mags with the rest.

[Brian48]

Don't carry a .380 any more, but when I did, I was only comfortable with FMJ. I just don't like the velocity with jhps. Just as slow as ball, but at least I can always count on ball to penetrate. WWB was my referred brand as it was the only FMJ I could find that had a flat point.

[reteach]

Joe-
JC57 beat me to it. I did a quick search on GunBot and I can add that the Speer 53606 can be had at SGAmmo for $20.95.
Keep in mind that the penetration and expansion we're seeing in those Lucky Gunner and Shooting the Bull tests come from the Glock with the longer barrel. If you're going to go with something like an LCP, you will likely not get the same results.

[HighValleyRanch]

If you're going to go with something like an LCP, you will likely not get the same results.

From my post on our testing today on the BB loads:
But the results for the .380 through a Ruger LCP:
Critcal defense ...................774 fps (disappointing!)
BB .380 +P 100 grain...........1041,1050,1040
Federal Hydroshock frangible....865,894,882,912
According to BB's website graphs, this .380 yields 243 ft. pounds ME.

https://youtu.be/JqtnSUbEOyQ

As a comparison BB's standard pressure short barrel load is:
➤ 854 fps (256 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch barrel

[reteach]

Sure, Buffalo Bore is very impressive across the board. In my post I meant that in comparing Speer from a Glock 42 to Speer from an LCP, there would be a loss of performance.

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by reteach

Keep in mind that the penetration and expansion we're seeing in those Lucky Gunner and Shooting the Bull tests come from the Glock with the longer barrel. If you're going to go with something like an LCP, you will likely not get the same results.

Actually shooting the bull uses a Taurus TCP, same gun I have coming (If the shop ever ships it.. been a week now )
Anyway After watching about 5 different gel tests not including lucky gunner they don't seem to be to sensitive to barrel length.

The tests generally seem to put them some where around 11inch avg penetration and around .45 expansion, so expansion is not wild but that's probably a good thing.

Honestly it's coming up a bit short but not by much and they seem to be consistent.

Personally I like the looks of the Hornady FTX better but I can only find them in 25 rnd boxes and they're not THAT much more impressive then the gold dots.

I typically like to run at least 100 rounds of carry ammo in a gun and @ .70cpr that gets kinda expensive.

So I think Im gonna go with the gold dots that are nearly half the price w/50 round boxes.

Originally I thought FMJ would be the way to go but they penetrate a lot more in the tests then I would have ever thought, like around 25+inch

[HighValleyRanch]

Personally I like the looks of the Hornady FTX better but I can only find them in 25 rnd boxes and they're not THAT much more impressive then the gold dots.

Didn't you read my post that we only got 774 fps with the Hornady FTX?
It was even worse than the Federal Hydroshocks!

I like the critical defense in my revolvers because they easily speedload, but seems like kinda a wimpy load.