WWII Rifle Information?

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

Hey guys and gals,

I have recently become interested in bolt-action and semi-automatic firearms used during the second world war and have been researching the histories of those weapons with the intent of making a future purchase. Though I am not new to shooting, I am completely new to much of the information that is available on the internet referencing these firearms.

I was wondering if anyone had a tip on some reliable online sites or books that have good information on the different platforms including:

• History
• Value I should expect to pay
• Scams to look out for
• Tips to lower the price (Such as Russian Capture Mauser's)

The first rifle I purchase will be with the intent to shoot occasionally, so I'm not looking to buy a multi-thousand dollar rifle with matching serial numbers to start but do plan to buy more than one going into the future. Do any of you have a specific preference and why. I know that many love the Mauser, and some prefer systems that were based on the Mauser.

[James K]

There are excellent books on the individual weapons (e.g., Law's Backbone of the Wehrmacht on the German K.98k) but the best general book is Small Arms of the World (Smith and Smith). It was published in a number of editions, so try to find the latest. Otherwise, there are books on just about all the arms you might be interested in. American arms are well covered, from Hatcher's and Canfield's books on the Garand, to Ruth's classic on the carbine, War Baby.

A note of caution. Good books are well researched and well written; they are not cheap. Cheap books may be OK, but may also simply parrot old information and myths (the "ping" of the M1 clip resulted in millions of American deaths!!!, the Japanese Model 94 pistol was designed to be used in fake surrenders!!). I have one book that was given me on the .30-'06 cartridge. It is nothing but reproduced clippings from magazines and army manuals; how the (so-called) writer escaped being sued for plagiarism, I don't know.

I advise not ordering books blindly by mail. You should at least look at the book before plunking down money. The best place to find gun books is at (ready for this?) a gun show. Every large gun show has at least one book seller.

For a lot of information in a small space, (though not much on individual small arms), the Ballentine books are hard to beat. Often written by real experts, men who had been there and done that, they are now collectors' items in themselves, but still generally a bargain.

Are there mistakes? Yes, there will not be many 300-600 page books without them. But, as noted above, the more experience and research that goes into a book, the more likely it is to be accurate. One author of a book on submachineguns has what is probably the nation's (if not the world's) largest private collection of SMG's. If he writes that the gun X selector switch pushes forward for full auto, you can believe that is the way it works.

Jim

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

Thanks for the reply Jim. There is actually a gun show I was thinking of going to later this month, I'll check to see if I can find some of the books you have mentioned.

[lockedcj7]

It all depends on budget and personal preference. Garands and M1 carbines are commanding premium prices right now. Beware of welded receivers, over stamps and gas-trap fakes on Garands. Buy a shooter for a fair price and don't pay extra for "correct" or "numbers-matching" unless you really know what you're doing. Chuckhawks.com and thetruthaboutguns are both good for basic info.

It is still possible to order an M1 Garand from the CMP. The prices are great and the guns have been checked out. There are several carbine repros that have been or are being made now, some good, some not. Familiarize yourself with them and don't buy one if your heart is set on the real thing.

As I noted on another thread, I just bought a sporterized No4 Mk1 .303 for $60. I've already spent another $60 on parts and it will still need a stock if I want to return it to original configuration. Even if I order a stock today and don't shop around, I'll have less than $250 in it. Mausers generally start there and go up. I won't even talk about Mosins, Carcanos and Arisakas since I know even less about them.

[James K]

I see I didn't answer the question on prices. That was intentional, though I should have explained that prices on milsurps vary so much and so much depends on markings and condition, that no post can possibly give enough information to help. Even the common K.98k can vary in price from $100 or less for a sporterized "beater" to thousands for an S/42 K date in like-new condition.

One "trap" is the advertising of Yugoslav Model [19]48's as having been used by the Germans in WWII. Apparently many folks don't even know that WWII ended in 1945!

Jim

[emcon5]

It is far from definitive, but you can get a decent overview from Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fantry_weapons

First, you should order a M1 Garand from CMP while they still have them. They will not last forever.

I like The Firing Line, but for detailed information on specific milsurp guns, you really need to join, forums dedicated to collectors. At a minimum, you should be a member of Gunboards, Surplus Rifle Forum, and K98forum. For US rifles, you should include http://forums.thecmp.org/

For German K98 info, the K98 Forum is excellent, and everyone with an interest in German Mausers should be a member for no other reason than their reference stickies, particularly the picture reference sticky.

For books, Backbone of the Wehrmacht is good, but dated. The new books from http://www.thirdpartypress.com/ are supposed to be top notch, and priced accordingly. Vol 2 is supposed to come out in the next year, which will cover most of the WW2 years.

My opinion, the best forums for specific firearm models:

For Mosin Nagants: http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...osin-Nagant-HQ

For WW2 German Mausers: http://www.k98kforum.com/forumdispla...he-Nazi-Period
with this in 2nd place: http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...8-Mauser-Forum

For Japanese rifles: http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...The-Rising-Sun

For Enfields: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27

And a few random things, in no particular order:

Mitchell's Mausers are crap.
Mosin Nagants are still the best value in WW2 era arms from a major player.
Yugo M48s are post war, but excellent rifles, many saw very little use.
Assume all Sniper rifles for sale are fakes, with the possible exception of Mosin PUs or Swede M41s.
Many Nazi era K98s are faked, you can buy the stamps from ebay.
Shooting corrosive ammo in a bolt action rifle is a not something to be afraid of, as long as you know the proper way to clean (good old H20).

For prices, it is a moving target, unfortunately. One good way is to join Gunbroker and search completed auctions, and look at actual prices things sold for.

[Savage99]

Libraries have many of those old books in them. Look there first. They even have web sites as to what they have!

Such reference books have been upstaged by this internet and places like this.

Use the site www.boardreader.com to find topics in forums.

[kilimanjaro]

Plan on spending several hundred dollars for a nice specimen of any US or German milsurp. Three hundred bucks will get you a nice Lee-Enfield, Swiss K31, and lesser amounts for Italian, French, Turkish, etc., examples. Finnish rifles are at a premium, and often faked. Russian rifles are plentiful, get a good Tula arsenal example from 1939-41 and call it good. The later years are hurriedly made and quality is a bit off. The 1944 Russian carbine is not expensive, and minty examples are common. Japanese rifles are common and cheap, except for minty examples with full Chrysanthemums.

As mentioned, assume going in that sniper rifles, paratrooper carbines, tanker carbines, that kind of stuff, is a fake, until proven otherwise. Also assume any story of capture to be 'enhanced' until you see the Army papers to prove it.

Condition is everything. I shoot all my milsurps, but want them in as nice a condition as I can find and afford.

Do pick up bayonets for them, as well. They really add something to the display.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

Thanks guys. You have all given me a lot of useful information to look over. I was looking into CMP's service grade models already which got me interested in other examples of rifles other countries have fielded.

[Scorch]

Google "Carbines for collectors". Lots of good info on a whole variety of WW I and WW II rifles.

[highpower3006]

You are starting off in the right direction by wanting to by the books before you buy the guns. When you get ready to buy, check out Gunbroker for completed auctions where the guns has actually sold. That should give you a better idea of what certain guns are really worth, not what some dreamer thinks they are worth.

A lot of the guns at gunshows are horribly over priced and the sellers seem to be waiting for some noob to come along and over pay for their junk. I have made a few decent deals at gunshows but I am always willing to walk away if the seller won't deal.

The advantage to a show is that you get to handle the gun before you buy it which is something you don't get with an internet sale. If you are looking on the internet beware of adds that have just a couple of out of focus pictures and a sparse description.

Beware of Armslist scams, if the seller isn't local, stay away.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

Very true Highpower. I think any collectibles market will have sellers who try to "over market" what they really have hoping someone new will purchase without doing any research. Sometimes the seller truly thinks they have something better than they do, other times it is deception. I don't want to be one of those people who gets caught in one of those scams. At the beginning I plan to just get some lower priced models until my knowledge is sufficient enough to make a slightly bigger purchase.

I am currently kicking myself for not buying some of those surplus mosin's that flooded the market a couple years back. I picked one up on a rack priced at about $100 and set it back down.

[gyvel]

If you get into Brit stuff, Ian Skennerton's The Lee-Enfield Story is a must-have.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

The SMLE, P14 and the M1917 though it is an American version are fairly attractive looking rifles, thanks for the tip gyvel. I will definitely check that book out.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

Thanks for the tip emcon5, I've been searching through gunbroker and have found a common theme among the rifles listed....they don't sell, aren't bid on or don't hit their reserve. I'm new to this type of collectible but my guess is that prices are probably fairly inflated right now.

[hartcreek]

The first question I am going to ask you......are you a reloader? If not then there are specific milsurps that maybe you should stay away from unless your goal is just to have something to dust.

[4V50 Gary]

Ian Skennerton has a great book on the SMLE.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

I am not currently a reloader. I've been looking into reloading with a couple friends to buy in bulk which is unrelated to the current guns I'm looking into but that will be a factor with some of the less common rounds. Ideally I'd start with something fairly common in 30-06 while researching for later purchases and hopefully have the equipment I need to reload some of the harder to find selections.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

I'm not planning to shoot as frequently with this purchase as I would with my 721 or other firearms. If ammo is obtainable at a price that isn't extortion I'm fine paying a little more.

[emcon5]

You may be surprised about that. I shoot my milsurp rifles more than modern ones, I find them more enjoyable.

You really should look at handloading, surplus ammo is pretty much gone at this point, and commercial ammo is not always easy to find, and can be expensive.

You mention .30-06, if a M1 Garand is one of the guns you are looking at, be aware that they were designed around a specific type of ammo and are sensitive to powder type. Ammo that is loaded with hotter powder can damage the gun, even if the peak pressure is the same, the pressure curve can be different and can damage the op-rod.

Also be aware of 1903 Springfields with low serial numbers. They were not heat treated properly and should be considered unsafe. Google "low number 1903" for more info and the safe serial number cutoff.

[joe sixgun]

Yes M1917 if you want 30-06. You will never regret adding one to your collection.

[highpower3006]

I have been interested in military firearms since I first got interested in guns back when I was a kid. Since then my collection has waxed and waned as my financial situation has done the same.

I can say that I have never seen the prices of quality surplus guns go down. I remember when I bought my first military rifle, an Enfield No4Mk1 for $20, now that same rifle is $450. Even the lowly Mosin-Nagants that were so cheap and plentiful have dried up and prices are on the rise.

My advice is to study like crazy and then buy the best you can afford. Turkish Mausers are much less than a comparable German one, but the German rifle is always going to be worth more.

By all means get a Garand while they are still available and relatively inexpensive, they will always be around, but the prices are certainly going to go up. I remember when Soviet SVT40 rifles were under $400 and I hemmed and hawed and didn't get one. I recently broke down and won a bid on Gunbroker for one and it was four times the price of just a few years ago.

I think you will find that shooting one of these old war horses to be way more fun than shooting some modern firearm. For many of them, reloading is becoming the only way to shoot them more than just a few times.

[GreatLakesEnthusiast]

I was leaning towards a Garand while CMP still had them reasonably priced. Thanks for the info about the types of ammo a Garand should use, I haven't heard that before. My preferences do lean slightly more towards bolt action designs so +1 on the M1917 and M1903 information. Not that I don't like semi-autos, its just so easy to blow through ammo with the dumb grin that is most definitely on my face.

[emcon5]

Thanks for the info about the types of ammo a Garand should use, I haven't heard that before

To be clear, it is not a huge issue, just something to be aware of. Garand safe ammo is available, either Greek surplus from CMP, USGI surplus, or commercial "Garand safe" stuff from Federal, PMC or Privi Partizan.

If you reload, most bullet makers have M1 specific load data, using powders with burn rates and pressure curves that are close to the original M2 ball ammo and appropriate for the M1.

Information on the low number 1903 Springfield issues can be found here:
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1903-m1903a3/

[tahunua001]

personally I prefer cock-on-close bolt guns. the way they work is the firing pin cocked by the forward motion of the bolt rather than the upward rotation while ejecting a spent casing. it just makes the gun feel that much more solid in my hands( there is a definite spring-loaded resistance while closing the bolt). guns that are cock on close include-but are not limited to:

British enfields.
Japanese arisakas
US Model 1917
and Swedish Mausers(german mausers and their derivatives are all cock on open).

I've owned all of the above and my absolute favorite are the Arisakas, they are butt-ugly, hard to find ammo for, and nobody can agree on who was responsible for all of the grinder and chisel marks you find on 90% of them, but dang if they aren't wonderful rifles to shoot.

a much better gun for a beginner from that list is the British enfield. I'm partial to the enfield number 4 rifles(WWII era). they have high ammo capacity(10 rounds vs the usual 5 rounds with most other military bolt actions), the ammo is pretty widely available(can be found at most stores that have more than a single isle for ammo), and they are decently accurate/reliable. the swedish mausers are a close second in all regards and possibly even better in the ammo availability field. the US model 1917 is a good gun but prices are high, and I personally cant seem to shoulder it right and it beats me like rhianna.

other cheaper guns a lot of people go with are mosin nagants, swiss K series rifles, and the cheaper-non german mausers(turks and yugos mostly). the mosin nagant is crude, stiff, usually abused by improperly trained conscripts and built in a hurry by a desperate nation that had no inclinations to observe quality control. unless you get one that was made by finland, or a post war/ late war model, you're not likely to see any great amount of accuracy out of them and the affordable ammo has all dried up. I know little of the swiss rifles other than they were all the rage for about the last year and here a couple months ago they disappeared again along with all the imported ammo. they are straight pull rifles( you don't have to rotate the bolt, just pull back and push forward) so the bolt designs are quite complicated. all of the models I've seen in the local pawn shops were completely seized and none of the shop owners could adequately demonstrate un-seizing them for me to be interested enough to buy one. the non-german mausers are good enough quality I suppose, I just prefer swedes when speaking of mausers.

EDIT: if you're interested, I am currently trying to sell my abused little mixmaster M1917 if you are at all interested.