Geroco Revolver

Doc Hoy · July 3, 2013, 08:27 AM

I came up with this revolver in a Florida gun shop a while back and the revolver has been a little problematic from the start. The history is that I gave 250.00 for it used. Geroco Texas Scout imported by George Rose and manufactured by Herbert Schmidt in (you guessed it) Germany. Revolver is .357 and almost immediately quit working.

Problem was that the hammer cam was worn. I drove the cam slightly out of the hammer so I could do a little reshaping. At least it cycles now but the bolt drops too quick locking the cylinder at half cock. So it needs a little internal work.

Additionally I was whining and complaining about the cheap white metal castings that are used for the ejector rod housing and the gate. The original pistol had a white metal trigger guard and back strap which I replaced with brass.

Tried an ejector housing from an Uberti and I can make it fit. Don't know about the gate yet. I ordered parts from VTI. I also got the ejector rod with the birdseye finger tab.

Total 114.00 with shipping for the three parts. (Housing, gate and ejector rod.)

Here are some photos of the pistol.

In the second photo you can see how cheap the housing and gate look. I will be happy to be rid of these parts.

I will be trying to make the revolver look more antique removing the brown finish and just smoothing it up. The parts I ordered are blued (Gate is case hardened finish). But that will come off too.

Hawg · July 3, 2013, 08:59 AM

Looks like a worthwhile project.

bedbugbilly · July 3, 2013, 01:37 PM

Looks good Doc. I like the brass trigger guard that you put on it - dresses it up. Hopefully (I have no doubt that you will knowing your machining abilities) you'll get it cycling without too much work. I've never run across one of this brand. I'm guessing that if you have a problem though, it would be better to swear at it in German rather than English?

We'll be anxious to see this after you've worked your magic on it!

Hawg · July 3, 2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

it would be better to swear at it in German rather than English?

It sounds better anyway. Even praise in German sounds like swearing.

Doc Hoy · July 3, 2013, 02:32 PM

to the present day Heritage revolvers. It is a transfer bar revolver.

It is very heavy since the caliber is small at .357.

It had after-market simulated pearl grips which the vendor told me came from a Vaquero. Turned out not to be the case since they did not fit my Vaquero until I drilled a locating hole and took them down a bit in profile.

I won't feel bad about making the piece look old.

The revolver is tight and the bore is quite good. I think that once I fiddle with it a little I will learn to like it.

thebser · July 4, 2013, 05:17 PM

I like it a lot!!

Doc Hoy · July 5, 2013, 07:48 PM

Details at eleven.

Bill Akins · July 8, 2013, 03:26 AM

Will be watching what you do Doc.

.

Doc Hoy · July 8, 2013, 05:43 PM

Perhaps you recall from a previous post that I had to drive out the cam and reshape it. The cam on this revolver is sort of odd.

The diameter of the cam is the same as the diameter of the cam stud which is pressed into the hammer. So the cam is really small.

I drove the old cam slightly out of the hammer exposing enough of the metal cam to reshape so it would work. Problem was that the bolt was worn as well and the combination of 1. the small diameter cam. 2. the fact that the shape was not quite right, and 3. the worn bolt prevented the revolver from retracting the bolt when the revolver was at half cock. I could get the bolt to stay retracted but it was real finicky.

So I removed the cam completely and made a new one from an allen wrench. I also redesigned the cam such that the exposed portions in slightly larger in diameter than the stud which is driven into the hole on the hammer. The larger cam head gives the bolt leg more purchase on the cam and increases the confidence that the cam and bolt legs will operate in the same way every time.

I replaced the Herman Schmidt bolt which was worn, with a Pietta bolt from a Colt clone. I shaped the bolt ala Pettifogger.

With these actions the revolver cycles reliably 100 times out of 100.

Hawg · July 8, 2013, 05:50 PM

You da man Doc.

Doc Hoy · July 8, 2013, 05:59 PM

As follows:

The ejector rod housing was recessed at the hole in the front to accommodate a raised section on the barrel. So I counterbored the new part and took some height off of the raised section of the barrel. This is the only revolver I own with a birdseye operating handle on the ejector rod.

The perpendicular detents on the loading gate which gives the loading gate a positive hold in the open position and in the closed position were at the wrong place. The effect was that the rider in the revolver did not engage the detents on the new piece. The gate would remain open or closed but there was no effect of the detent. The new Uberti gate is the one on the left. When I finished with the detents it looks a good bit more like the one on the right.

Finally, the Uberti gate was slightly large such that it extended above the surface of the recoil shield and interfered with the rotation of the cylinder. So I smoothed in down and shaped a very slight bevel on it such that the cylinder moved freely.

Bill Akins · July 8, 2013, 06:10 PM

Always enjoy seeing your projects Doc. Great work.

.

Hawg · July 8, 2013, 06:14 PM

One slight correction Doc. That's a bullseye ejector not a birdseye.

Your work is outstanding as always.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 04:06 AM

I was well into "happy hour" when I did the second post.

Jack Daniels thinks it is "Birdseye."

**4V50 Gary** · July 9, 2013, 05:18 AM

I wonder if that German mystery metal is zinc?

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 06:40 AM

My guess is that if it is not pure zinc, it is an alloy with a lot of zinc in it.

I mentioned previously about my Grand Dad as a die caster using white metal and now that you mention it, I remember him talking about zinc as a part of his work. I remember it clearly because at the time, I was prolly about nine or ten years of age and my only exposure to the word "zinc" was associated with the kitchen "sink". (As a Pennsylvania country boy, me education was a bit slow.) For a long time I thought he made "sinks".

On a revolver it is pretty disgusting choice.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 07:32 AM

It was Herbert Schmidt, not Herman Schmidt.

I checked up on Heritage Manufacturing revolvers in the American Legend line.

They say (on the website) that some components for those revolvers are manufactured by Pietta. No surprise, I guess.

I have emailed Heritage and asked them if the ejector rod housing, loading gate, trigger guard and backstrap are steel or of some other alloy.

I also emailed Pietta asking them if they will tell me which components of the revolver are manufactured by them and provided to Heritage.

I don't expect answers to either of my questions.

bedbugbilly · July 9, 2013, 07:42 AM

Nice work Doc . . . always enjoy your projects! Nice that you have your friend, Jack Daniels, over to help you out . . . sometimes those things make projects go a lot smoother!

With the wear on this, does it appear like it has been shot a lot or is it a combination of poor materials and maybe a lack of good design? By the time you're done with it, it will be better than when it was new I'm sure.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 08:07 AM

I am thinking that this revolver was never of very high quality and consequently it may be suffering from softness in the internals.

I have replaced a lot of the wear surfaces and it appears that the internals are pretty much equivalent in geometry to the Italian revolvers we are accustomed to. The hand pin is new as is the cam and the bolt. I replaced the trigger/bolt spring. The hammer and trigger appear not to be worn and so I am thinking the revolver was not used very much.

I think I can keep it functioning but even so, I would not mind having to retire it to the wall as a less than perfectly reliable six-shooter.

I did a comparison of my Uberti Smoke Wagon and this revolver and came up with some interesting revelations.

The Texas Scout is longer by about 3/8 inch even though the barrel length is identical. I want to hasten to mention that I changed out the trigger guard, back strap and grips with those from an 1860 Colt. That may have added some length. The cylinder of the Scout is longer by about 3/16 inch and consequently the frame itself is longer

The external diameter of the barrel is .785 as opposed to the Uberti barrel diameter of .740.

The revolver is five ounces heavier than the Uberti at 2 lb. 13 oz vice 2 lb. 8 oz. It feels like nearly all of that weight is near the muzzle and this makes the revolver balance way forward. (No surprise there with the big barrel on it.)

Hawg · July 9, 2013, 08:38 AM

The mystery metal is zamak, probably zamak 5. Its a zinc alloy and pretty tough stuff with a tensile strength of 48,000 psi.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 09:12 AM

How did you identify the metal?

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 09:18 AM

It said, the revolver is manufactured by Pietta and assembled in the USA by Heritage.

Didn't really answer my question unless the message is taken completely literally. I am not certain that is appropriate.

Hawg · July 9, 2013, 12:57 PM

Zamak is used in a lot of alloy gun frames. I should have worded that differently. I'm not claiming to know that's what it is but I think its highly likely.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 01:36 PM

Roger....Out.

Doc Hoy · July 9, 2013, 05:58 PM

"The revolver is made from carbon steel"

I can tell you that the revolvers I examined have components that are made from an alloy which I think is not steel (but what I know as white metal.) Those parts are not blued. The black finish on them looks exactly like paint.

It is entirely possible that Heritage recently changed suppliers and when they did, the new supplier (now Pietta) began supplying revolvers which are made primarily of steel including the parts formerly made from (what I will call) white metal.

On the other hand, I might be getting the "bums rush" from an under-informed member of Heritage staff.

July 3, 2013, 08:27 AM	#1
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Geroco Revolver I came up with this revolver in a Florida gun shop a while back and the revolver has been a little problematic from the start. The history is that I gave 250.00 for it used. Geroco Texas Scout imported by George Rose and manufactured by Herbert Schmidt in (you guessed it) Germany. Revolver is .357 and almost immediately quit working. Problem was that the hammer cam was worn. I drove the cam slightly out of the hammer so I could do a little reshaping. At least it cycles now but the bolt drops too quick locking the cylinder at half cock. So it needs a little internal work. Additionally I was whining and complaining about the cheap white metal castings that are used for the ejector rod housing and the gate. The original pistol had a white metal trigger guard and back strap which I replaced with brass. Tried an ejector housing from an Uberti and I can make it fit. Don't know about the gate yet. I ordered parts from VTI. I also got the ejector rod with the birdseye finger tab. Total 114.00 with shipping for the three parts. (Housing, gate and ejector rod.) Here are some photos of the pistol. In the second photo you can see how cheap the housing and gate look. I will be happy to be rid of these parts. I will be trying to make the revolver look more antique removing the brown finish and just smoothing it up. The parts I ordered are blued (Gate is case hardened finish). But that will come off too. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 3, 2013, 01:37 PM	#3
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Looks good Doc. I like the brass trigger guard that you put on it - dresses it up. Hopefully (I have no doubt that you will knowing your machining abilities) you'll get it cycling without too much work. I've never run across one of this brand. I'm guessing that if you have a problem though, it would be better to swear at it in German rather than English? We'll be anxious to see this after you've worked your magic on it! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 3, 2013, 02:32 PM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	This revolver bears a striking resemblance to the present day Heritage revolvers. It is a transfer bar revolver. It is very heavy since the caliber is small at .357. It had after-market simulated pearl grips which the vendor told me came from a Vaquero. Turned out not to be the case since they did not fit my Vaquero until I drilled a locating hole and took them down a bit in profile. I won't feel bad about making the piece look old. The revolver is tight and the bore is quite good. I think that once I fiddle with it a little I will learn to like it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 4, 2013, 05:17 PM	#6
thebser Member Join Date: June 18, 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 95	I like it I like it a lot!!

July 5, 2013, 07:48 PM	#7
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Parts arrived. Some fitting required. Details at eleven. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 3, 2013, 08:59 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Looks like a worthwhile project.

July 8, 2013, 03:26 AM	#8
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	Will be watching what you do Doc. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

July 8, 2013, 05:43 PM	#9
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Got the revolver working right... Perhaps you recall from a previous post that I had to drive out the cam and reshape it. The cam on this revolver is sort of odd. The diameter of the cam is the same as the diameter of the cam stud which is pressed into the hammer. So the cam is really small. I drove the old cam slightly out of the hammer exposing enough of the metal cam to reshape so it would work. Problem was that the bolt was worn as well and the combination of 1. the small diameter cam. 2. the fact that the shape was not quite right, and 3. the worn bolt prevented the revolver from retracting the bolt when the revolver was at half cock. I could get the bolt to stay retracted but it was real finicky. So I removed the cam completely and made a new one from an allen wrench. I also redesigned the cam such that the exposed portions in slightly larger in diameter than the stud which is driven into the hole on the hammer. The larger cam head gives the bolt leg more purchase on the cam and increases the confidence that the cam and bolt legs will operate in the same way every time. I replaced the Herman Schmidt bolt which was worn, with a Pietta bolt from a Colt clone. I shaped the bolt ala Pettifogger. With these actions the revolver cycles reliably 100 times out of 100. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 8, 2013, 05:50 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	You da man Doc.

July 8, 2013, 05:59 PM	#11
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	The Uberti parts needed a little yutzing... As follows: The ejector rod housing was recessed at the hole in the front to accommodate a raised section on the barrel. So I counterbored the new part and took some height off of the raised section of the barrel. This is the only revolver I own with a birdseye operating handle on the ejector rod. The perpendicular detents on the loading gate which gives the loading gate a positive hold in the open position and in the closed position were at the wrong place. The effect was that the rider in the revolver did not engage the detents on the new piece. The gate would remain open or closed but there was no effect of the detent. The new Uberti gate is the one on the left. When I finished with the detents it looks a good bit more like the one on the right. Finally, the Uberti gate was slightly large such that it extended above the surface of the recoil shield and interfered with the rotation of the cylinder. So I smoothed in down and shaped a very slight bevel on it such that the cylinder moved freely. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 8, 2013, 06:10 PM	#12
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	Always enjoy seeing your projects Doc. Great work. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

July 8, 2013, 06:14 PM	#13
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	One slight correction Doc. That's a bullseye ejector not a birdseye. Your work is outstanding as always.

July 9, 2013, 04:06 AM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	True dat, Hawg... I was well into "happy hour" when I did the second post. Jack Daniels thinks it is "Birdseye." __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 05:18 AM	#15
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	I wonder if that German mystery metal is zinc? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 9, 2013, 06:40 AM	#16
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Gary My guess is that if it is not pure zinc, it is an alloy with a lot of zinc in it. I mentioned previously about my Grand Dad as a die caster using white metal and now that you mention it, I remember him talking about zinc as a part of his work. I remember it clearly because at the time, I was prolly about nine or ten years of age and my only exposure to the word "zinc" was associated with the kitchen "sink". (As a Pennsylvania country boy, me education was a bit slow.) For a long time I thought he made "sinks". On a revolver it is pretty disgusting choice. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 07:32 AM	#17
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Nuther error It was Herbert Schmidt, not Herman Schmidt. I checked up on Heritage Manufacturing revolvers in the American Legend line. They say (on the website) that some components for those revolvers are manufactured by Pietta. No surprise, I guess. I have emailed Heritage and asked them if the ejector rod housing, loading gate, trigger guard and backstrap are steel or of some other alloy. I also emailed Pietta asking them if they will tell me which components of the revolver are manufactured by them and provided to Heritage. I don't expect answers to either of my questions. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 07:42 AM	#18
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Nice work Doc . . . always enjoy your projects! Nice that you have your friend, Jack Daniels, over to help you out . . . sometimes those things make projects go a lot smoother! With the wear on this, does it appear like it has been shot a lot or is it a combination of poor materials and maybe a lack of good design? By the time you're done with it, it will be better than when it was new I'm sure. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 9, 2013, 08:07 AM	#19
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	BBB.. I am thinking that this revolver was never of very high quality and consequently it may be suffering from softness in the internals. I have replaced a lot of the wear surfaces and it appears that the internals are pretty much equivalent in geometry to the Italian revolvers we are accustomed to. The hand pin is new as is the cam and the bolt. I replaced the trigger/bolt spring. The hammer and trigger appear not to be worn and so I am thinking the revolver was not used very much. I think I can keep it functioning but even so, I would not mind having to retire it to the wall as a less than perfectly reliable six-shooter. I did a comparison of my Uberti Smoke Wagon and this revolver and came up with some interesting revelations. The Texas Scout is longer by about 3/8 inch even though the barrel length is identical. I want to hasten to mention that I changed out the trigger guard, back strap and grips with those from an 1860 Colt. That may have added some length. The cylinder of the Scout is longer by about 3/16 inch and consequently the frame itself is longer The external diameter of the barrel is .785 as opposed to the Uberti barrel diameter of .740. The revolver is five ounces heavier than the Uberti at 2 lb. 13 oz vice 2 lb. 8 oz. It feels like nearly all of that weight is near the muzzle and this makes the revolver balance way forward. (No surprise there with the big barrel on it.) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 08:38 AM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The mystery metal is zamak, probably zamak 5. Its a zinc alloy and pretty tough stuff with a tensile strength of 48,000 psi.

July 9, 2013, 09:12 AM	#21
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hawg....Just curious... How did you identify the metal? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 09:18 AM	#22
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Just got a "wink back" from Pietta. It said, the revolver is manufactured by Pietta and assembled in the USA by Heritage. Didn't really answer my question unless the message is taken completely literally. I am not certain that is appropriate. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 12:57 PM	#23
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Zamak is used in a lot of alloy gun frames. I should have worded that differently. I'm not claiming to know that's what it is but I think its highly likely.

July 9, 2013, 01:36 PM	#24
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hawg... Roger....Out. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 9, 2013, 05:58 PM	#25
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	The word back from Heritage.... "The revolver is made from carbon steel" I can tell you that the revolvers I examined have components that are made from an alloy which I think is not steel (but what I know as white metal.) Those parts are not blued. The black finish on them looks exactly like paint. It is entirely possible that Heritage recently changed suppliers and when they did, the new supplier (now Pietta) began supplying revolvers which are made primarily of steel including the parts formerly made from (what I will call) white metal. On the other hand, I might be getting the "bums rush" from an under-informed member of Heritage staff. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.