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April 27, 2014, 12:00 AM | #126 | |
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I certainly can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do, but I can tell you that refusal to play by the rules established by state law will get you in the same situation Byron Smith now finds himself. |
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April 27, 2014, 06:06 AM | #127 | |
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ETA: That said, I suspect the reason some Minnesotans think Mr. Smith's actions may have been justified is that the Minnesota laws are poorly worded; I hope this case prompts revisions that replace "taking of life" with "use of deadly force." It's an important distinction.
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April 27, 2014, 06:57 AM | #128 |
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As pointed out already, MN law says the "Taking of a Life" is justified when preventing the Commission of a felony in someones place of abode.
The question is, what constitutes "prevention"? These are comments from another MN gun owner, any Legal basis for his "Opinion"? If the burglary was the felony justification for the defense of dwelling, the crime is ongoing while the burglar is in the dwelling. Therefore the teens were still committing the crime until they were dead. |
April 27, 2014, 07:07 AM | #129 | |
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That's a ridiculous claim. By that logic, he could have captured them and been justified in doing just about anything he wanted to them as long as he kept them in his house. It saddens me that this situation even creates an argument. These are the actions of a calculating murderer, not a home defender. |
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April 27, 2014, 07:11 AM | #130 |
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...but that's not what he did, he killed them. Was he justified in doing so according to MN Law?
He did not have to fear for his life and he did not have to stop a physical "Threat". |
April 27, 2014, 07:28 AM | #131 | |
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More importantly, I would most assuredly not want a statement of that kind attributed to me, should I ever find myself in the position of having used deadly force against another human being. |
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April 27, 2014, 07:41 AM | #132 | |
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And that is why i posted what i did about the double/triple tap. AND, that is why i am interested in Smiths past State Dept. training! And i haven't seen anything so far on any training Cmnt might have had. As posted a while back someone thought maybe he should have a FOID card taken away, well here in Minnesota there is no requirements for any training or registration to own and use a firearm in home defense and any other legal activity related to firearms outside of the Personal Protection act (Permit to carry). And do i think Cmnt went to far, Certainly I do, but i also was not the one walking in his shoes. Back in 2003 one of the first Permit to carry cards that was lost by a Minnesotan was when he was defending his person and property, called 911 and then went into his house to retrieve his handgun. He put a couple of rounds into the front of his brothers car as his brother was ramming property, and then when the brother pulled away another shot was fired at the fleeing vehicle. That was a violation of the defense of life or property. He was held to a higher standard because he was trained and failed to act within that training.
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April 27, 2014, 09:02 AM | #133 | |
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Last edited by manta49; April 27, 2014 at 09:08 AM. |
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April 27, 2014, 09:22 AM | #134 |
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The home owner was wrong. He shows a pathological psychopathic response to the threat under the color of law. I would not want him free in my community.
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April 27, 2014, 09:30 AM | #135 |
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I know nothing about the case.
If they broke into his house, then they signed over the rights to their lives to him while they were in his house. I don't care what he did... I would have a very hard time finding him guilty of anything if I was on the jury. What is the moral of the story? Don't break into people's houses. |
April 27, 2014, 09:36 AM | #136 | |
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MN Law says that Killing may be justified in the Prevention of a Felony In one's abode. He did not need to defend himself or feel his life was in danger. MN laws says the Felony Burglary is cause for killing. |
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April 27, 2014, 09:47 AM | #137 | ||
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Last edited by manta49; April 27, 2014 at 09:54 AM. |
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April 27, 2014, 09:51 AM | #138 | |
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609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE. The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode. |
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April 27, 2014, 10:11 AM | #139 |
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The jury will be instructed to rule on the evidence as it's presented, and only the evidence before them, and within the context of MN law. So there's probably a better than even chance that Steve is right and Smith will walk.
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April 27, 2014, 10:15 AM | #140 |
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I'm bettin Hung Jury.
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April 27, 2014, 10:43 AM | #141 | ||
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I am not aware of any other state in which the law justifies the "intentional taking of life" by a private citizen under any circumstance. Minnesota appears to be an outlier in that regard. One has to wonder what the legislators thought they were doing. The key words in the statute are "necessary" and "preventing." Smith could have argued, probably successfully, that he had been justified in shooting, to the extent that it had been necessary, to prevent a felony after the two persons had entered his home uninvited. But surely any reasonable person would conclude that, once he had stopped them, he had effectively prevented them from committing any felonies in the house. Thus, he was not justified in the further use of force of any kind. There is, of course, some possibility that the jury, or another jury in the event that this one is unable to reach a verdict, will decide otherwise. But it is more likely that he will ultimately be convicted. If he is, I suppose he might appeal, probably on the basis that the unusually clumsy wording in the statute somehow permitted his deliberate action. The appellate court could rule against him. That would establish case law that would clarify the meaning of the law. Or it could rule in his favor (I am not aware whether Minnesota is one of those states in which the courts must abide by the wording in the law if the wording is reasonably clear). Should that happen, I think we can reasonably expect the legislature to amend the law to address the use of force rather than the "intentional taking of life." That has happened in at least one other state in which the highest court was forced to rule on the basis of the wording in the code. If I were a betting man, my money would not be on Mr. Smith. His future looks very dim indeed. |
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April 27, 2014, 11:41 AM | #142 | ||
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"There is no duty to retreat from one's own home when acting in self defense in the home, regardless of whether the aggressor is a co-resident. But the lack of a duty to retreat does not abrogate the obligation to act reasonably when using force in self-defense. Therefore, in all situations in which a party claims self-defense, even absent a duty to retreat, the key inquiry will still be into the reasonableness of the use of force and the level of force under the specific circumstances of each case." State v. Glowacki, 630 N.W.2d 392, 402 (Minn. 1991).The wording you quote matters a lot less than how the courts have interpreted it, and it's hard to see how Mr. Smith's actions meet any standard of reasonableness. Quote:
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April 27, 2014, 12:06 PM | #143 | |
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According to MN Appeals Court, SD and Fear for one's life is NOT a requirement for Taking of a Life to Prevent the Commission of a Felony. So, I do not see how this applies. According to MN case Law Smith did not have to fear for his life and he did not have claim Self Defense". The simple Felony act of the two teen was justification enough, No self defense required. . Fear of death or great bodily harm is not an element of a "defense of dwelling" claim. Minn. Stat. § 609.065. http://mn.gov/lawlib/archive/supct/9708/c6952162.htm |
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April 27, 2014, 12:08 PM | #144 |
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While I do believe he went over the line when he finished off the intruders. I can see the defense emphasizing the age of the homeowner and the threat of multiple attackers. If the first intruder wasnt as injured as he thought he could be dealing with a 2 on 1 situation. Not to mention he had been burglarized multiple times leading up to the shooting and guns were stolen from his home. I could see how he would be extremely fearful. I wouldn't want to be on that jury. I want more facts
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April 27, 2014, 12:30 PM | #145 | |
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One more time----The defender must have reason to believe that his action is necessary to prevent a felony in the home. NECESSARY. PREVENT. The decedents had been disabled and could not have committed a felony. Whether they had already committed a felony or felonies is completely irrelevant. A private citizen may not judge guilt, or establish or execute a sentence, or exact revenge. By the way, reasonableness is a key aspect of justification in use of force law. It makes no difference on which particular section of the use of force statutes on which the appellate court ruled. The ruling in the case of an appeal under one section would almost certainly establish precedent under any other. Do you honestly believe that the courts would require the exercise of reason in acting in the fundamental human right of self defense, but not in the prevention of a felony? One cannot rely on the wording of a single statute, taken out of context, to interpret the law. There is the entire fabric of the law; there are long standing legal principles. Sometimes, state codes clearly set forth some of the relevant factors, and sometimes they do not. In Texas, for example, the code clearly states that verbal threats alone do not justify the use of force, deadly or otherwise; in many other states, those words are not contained in the code, and a defendant who acts otherwise will find that out the hard way. |
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April 27, 2014, 12:41 PM | #146 | |
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On cross-examination, defense attorney Steven Meshbesher pointed out that before the fatal shots, both Kifer and Brady would have been able to move and could have been perceived as threats. He said Brady could have grabbed a weapon if he had one. http://www.twincities.com/localnews/...n-murder-trial So, whether these to were actually disabled or not is still not clear. According to the ME, prolly not. |
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April 27, 2014, 01:04 PM | #147 | |
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The problem is, what they did or didn't deserve wasn't Smith's call to make. If it were, I'd truly fear for us as a society. If I'm reading the Minnesota statutes correctly, Smith may have a defense. In any case, expect calls to change that law if he walks.
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April 27, 2014, 01:05 PM | #148 | ||
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; April 27, 2014 at 01:13 PM. |
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April 27, 2014, 01:10 PM | #149 | |
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April 27, 2014, 01:11 PM | #150 |
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^^^
Sorry, does not the link to MN Appeals court provided in my post suffice? Here it is again. http://mn.gov/lawlib/archive/supct/9708/c6952162.htm S Y L L A B U S 1. Fear of death or great bodily harm is not an element of a "defense of dwelling" claim. Minn. Stat. § 609.065. 2. Jury instructions that required the jury to find that the defendant feared great bodily harm or death to justify his use of deadly force in preventing the commission of a felony in his place of abode were in error, and the error was not harmless. Reversed and remanded for a new trial. Heard, considered and decided by the court en banc. O P I N I O N GARDEBRING, Justice. This case presents the issue of whether the standard jury instructions for "defense of dwelling," given in this case, improperly require that the defendant must have feared great bodily harm or death to justify his use of deadly force in defending his home. Akeem Pendleton was charged with attempted second-degree murder, Minn. Stat. § 609.17 (1996), Minn. Stat. § 609.19(1) (1992) and first- and second-degree assault, Minn. Stat. §§ 609.221 and 609.222, subd. 2 (1996), in the December 10, 1994 shooting of Tony Caine. At trial, Pendleton claimed the shooting was in self defense, or in the alternative, in defense of his home. He requested that the standard jury instructions on self defense be modified to make clear that the fear of great bodily harm or death required for a self defense claim was not an element of a claim of "defense of dwelling." The trial court refused, and gave the standard jury instructions, which include the fear of great bodily harm or death element for both "defense of dwelling" and self defense. The jury returned a verdict of guilty on the first- and second-degree assault charges and not guilty on the attempted second-degree murder charge. |
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