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Old December 20, 2010, 11:45 AM   #1
teumessian_fox
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Have you ever had modern smokeless powder go bad?

A read about a guy who had some powder go bad. I think he may have bought some "surplus" powder (which had already been sitting on a shelf before he got it) and then determined it was unusable.

Have you had a smokeless powder go bad? How long had you owned it? What kind of container was it in? (Metal vs. plastic?) Finally, what conditions was it stored in? In the garage subject to significant temperature changes, etc?
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Old December 20, 2010, 11:46 AM   #2
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Old December 20, 2010, 12:27 PM   #3
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When I first started reloading in 1960, bulk surplus military powder was available at annual loading clinics. It was sold for about $0.25 a pound (commercial cans of powder were under $3.00 per lb), and dispensed in paper cartons and even brown paper bags.

Because I was young teenager, and didn’t know Shinola about how many cases it would load and how long it would take to shoot up, I asked for $5 worth. The vendor gave me a long look over his glasses, and asked me to produce a parent. AT his suggestion, I got home and sealed it in old glass quart mayo jars that my mom only used as emergency canning jars because of the thin glass; and put them in nice divided boxes.

I used the last of that powder a few years ago, and it was still good. I also have partially used kegs of SR4756, AL-8 (today's Blue Dot) and Red Dot from the late 60's early 70's.

Keep the powder tightly sealed, dry, out of the sun, and in the coolest area of the house as possible. It will last a long time.
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Old December 20, 2010, 01:24 PM   #4
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I had an unopened can of 4350 that was inadvertently left in an outbuilding for a couple of years. When I found it the can was well rounded (normally square can), and the powder smelled very pungent. I don't know for a fact that it was spoiled, but I did have some roses that were in desperate need of fertilizer. I'm too old to worry about that sort of thing, and I'd like to get older.
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Old December 20, 2010, 01:33 PM   #5
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I had the last of an 8 pound plastic jug of 322 go very bad. I had been noticing an odd smell in the house and discovered it was that old surplus powder. I set it outside on the porch because of the smell. The next day it was raining, and the fire dept knocked on the door. Said the neighbor saw smoke and he pointed to a puddle of plastic with a metal top. I don't think it flamed but it sure got hot.

Also have a metal can of 3031 that finally gave up after about 15 years.
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Old December 20, 2010, 04:32 PM   #6
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I had two ounces go bad a couple years ago.

It turns out that pulled-down .22 WMR powder shouldn't be stored in old prescription bottles.
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Old December 20, 2010, 04:39 PM   #7
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Wow griz that is kinda scary. Glad nothing bad happened.
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Old December 20, 2010, 06:49 PM   #8
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A few years ago, a customer brought in 3 cans of IMR 4350 asking if I thought something was wrong with it. Certainly was. Distinct odor and a reddish dust apparent upon opening. It seems he had left the powder in the attic of an old house for close to 10 years while he was working in Montana. One of the cans might have been marginally OK but I strongly suggested he replace the powder and sold him some fresh at my cost. I still have those cans(empty now) and they look fine on the outside. Whether the seals had been broken on the cans before storage or possibly, someone had opened them during storage just to see what was inside is unknown but 10 years of Missouri temps/humidity was too much.
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Old December 20, 2010, 07:02 PM   #9
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When I started loading almost 10 years ago, my dad gave me a pound of IMR 4350 that he bought in the mid-1980s, and when I opened the can it looked very similar to what Mobuck describes--strong acrid odor and reddish powder on the kernels.
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Old December 20, 2010, 07:04 PM   #10
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Old December 20, 2010, 07:09 PM   #11
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I am still using some H-4831, that I bought in 1972 or 73 that I am told was WWII surplus. It looks, smells and shoots like current 4831 powder. If it has not been exposed to any extremes, it should be fine.

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Old December 20, 2010, 07:34 PM   #12
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I bought one of the round 8lb cardboard boxes full of surplus H4831 in the
70s still have a little left its fine.Anytime I've heard of powder going bad it was stored in the heat
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Old December 21, 2010, 10:29 PM   #13
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It is my understanding that extruded powders are less likely to be affected by temps and therefore by deductive reasoning, it should not break down as fast. Just my .02 worth.
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Old December 22, 2010, 08:15 PM   #14
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"Have you ever had modern smokeless powder go bad?"

No.

But I've only be reloading since the 1960's.

The more experienced folks may have had problems --- I have not.
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Old December 22, 2010, 10:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
"Have you ever had modern smokeless powder go bad?"

No.

But I've only be reloading since the 1960's.

The more experienced folks may have had problems --- I have not.
Maybe you just need to wait a bit longer.

Half of all the surplus IMR 4895 I purchased went bad.

The first lot of 16 lbs, I used up eight pounds quickly. The last eight pounds of the first lot sat around. When I opened the bottle top, it smelled bitter. Red dust flew around.

I gave it to a machine gunner guy. He put it in the laundry room. The bottle got a piece of laundry over it and over night acid gas from the bottle ate holes in the laundry. That freaked my friend and he poured the stuff out over the lawn.

Since then I have had other lots of surplus 4895 powder go bad but in the case. I found green corrosion on the bottom of the bullets and cracked case necks.

First indications that I had a problem were that I had a lot of split case necks on fired cartridges. Then case necks started to crack on unfired ammunition. When I pulled bullets, I smelt nothing, in the case or in the bottle, but I found green corrosion on the bottom of bullets. I believe that nitric acid was weakening the work hardened areas of the case, and causing corrosion on the bottom of the bullets.

Incidentally, the powder shot exceptionally well in cases that did not have case neck cracks. I shot some exceptional scores with the stuff at 600 yards with 168 Match bullets. I had "funny" retorts on some rounds. I discussed this with a Navy Energics expert, and he told me as the surface of gun powder changes, burn rates are affected.

As double based powders detoriate they become surface rich in nitro gylcerine even though the total energy content of the powder is being reduced. This can cause pressure spikes.

This specialist explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory. The nitrocellulose and nitro glycerin want to combine to form a lower energy molecule. Nitrocellulose wants to become a low energy molecule. Thermodynamics tells us that nature wants to go to the lowest energy state.

Nitric acid gas is released in the chemical reactions. The rate of combination is directly related to temperature. The higher the temperature the faster the reaction. Powder contains stabilizers. The Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by a paper that changes color (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.

The Army does it different. The Army scraps small arms powders by time. Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years.

Quote:
had the last of an 8 pound plastic jug of 322 go very bad. I had been noticing an odd smell in the house and discovered it was that old surplus powder. I set it outside on the porch because of the smell. The next day it was raining, and the fire dept knocked on the door. Said the neighbor saw smoke and he pointed to a puddle of plastic with a metal top. I don't think it flamed but it sure got hot
I was told that when enough nitric acid is released, the powder will spontaneously combust. The expert diagramed the chemical reaction and drew arrows for hot spots. Hot spots develop in the powder as energy is released. Since the US Military is extremely scandal sensitive, they won’t tell anyone that any of their big bunkers have blown up, but they have. Ammunition depots go Kaboom all the time due to old ammunition spontaneously combusting. You can Google this and find incident reports in the literature. But you won’t find mention of some of the American ammunition incidents that this expert investigated. We Googled one incident he wrote a report on and found nothing in the public domain.

I found this on the web: “ Seven propellant autoignition incidents, some involving 100,000 pounds or more of powder, occurred at Army installations in the 1980s and 1990s. Although it has been 10 years since the last accident, constant vigilance is required.”

Did you ever hear of any of these? I have not either!


Government Rule #2: Minimize Scandal

But there are examples of depots going Kaboom on the web, even if they are not in the US.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13c_1205681217

The expert suggested that it is likely that surplus military powders are not on the market anymore due to liability issues. The stuff was scrapped because the military decided it was not safe to keep around anymore.

If the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits.

I talked to Alliant powders. They told me that if the plating inside the old cans is has rust spots, the powder is doing that, and the powder should be dumped.

For this reason, I do not think it is advisable to mix old powders with new. Why have the whole lot go bad?

Extra reading for those who are interested:

www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir031/n154.doc

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues...t_stab_eq.html
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Last edited by Slamfire; December 22, 2010 at 10:12 PM.
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Old December 23, 2010, 05:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
I talked to Alliant powders. They told me that if the plating inside the old cans is has rust spots, the powder is doing that, and the powder should be dumped.
Interesting. I have several partial cans from the 60's. The metal cans do have rust inside (light surface rust). But the powder still has the solvent smell, has no red dust on it when checked on white paper, and seems to perform just like any other. It has always been stored properly. I continue to use it.

So I claim to never had any go bad.

I suspect the rust is more of the normal expected life for the tinning on the steel can of that age.
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Old December 23, 2010, 08:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Interesting. I have several partial cans from the 60's. The metal cans do have rust inside (light surface rust). But the powder still has the solvent smell, has no red dust on it when checked on white paper, and seems to perform just like any other. It has always been stored properly. I continue to use it.

So I claim to never had any go bad.

I suspect the rust is more of the normal expected life for the tinning on the steel can of that age.
That was Alliant's advice.

I have 18 year old cans of IMR 4064, stored in a controlled environment. I opened one of these cans last year and found surface rust spots that looked more like rice impressions on the inside of the can.

I showed that to the expert and he made a sort of “eek” noise.

That rust is being caused by nitric acid gas escaping from the powder particles.

Maybe the amount of rust is a matter of degree.

I am trying to shoot up that 4064 as fast as matches will allow.
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Old December 24, 2010, 11:29 PM   #18
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This subject interests me greatly, does anyone have any photos of powder that is going bad ? I have some propellent that is greater then 15 years old, stored in moderate temperature, average humidity conditions. Those powders shown none of the signs of going bad..... But, I am not really sure what I should be looking for,... or better put, whether or not I would truly recognize the signs. I am one those "better safe then sorry" guys ..., but I'd rather not throw out still usable propellent.
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Old December 25, 2010, 08:56 AM   #19
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I remember as a teenager in the '60s, sitting on 30 lb cardboard drums of surplus 4895 at the Air Force base where we had a membership in the Rod and Gun Club.

I also remember in the late '70s, I was being transferred from one Army post to another and my wife packed my reloading room one day when I was at work. She presented me with three large boxes marked Reloading. I thanked her, and after the move I was setting up my bench and noticed that about half my powder was missing. Turned out, she had shaken the cans and "condensed" them, pouring powder from one can into another to make full cans, because "All of it is gunpowder, right?" I poured out about six pounds of powder, Bullseye mixed with Red Dot, mixed with 4895, mixed with Unique.

But no, I don't know that I've ever had powder deteriorate to the point where it was unusable. I recently finished a large container of Unique that I used for 10 or 12 years.
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Old December 26, 2010, 12:51 AM   #20
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Yes, DuPont 3031. I was using it in the .222 and bought two cans sometime in the early 1970s. They were of the same lot number and bought at the same time. I had half a can used up when the gopher population crashed and had discovered H322 by the time the varmints came back. A .35 Remington followed me home in 1997 and the rest of the opened can went fast. I opened the second can for the first time and poured some into the powder measure. There was red dust everywhere and the powder had that acid-aspirin smell, so I fertilized some wheat with it.

Bye
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Old December 26, 2010, 09:41 AM   #21
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I've got unique and 2400 that is over 50 years old, that is still good. Probably depends on how it is stored.
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