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Old June 18, 2017, 06:09 PM   #26
jmr40
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No matter what the factory may claim the S&W M&P is SA. The H&K VP9 is SA. The Ruger American is SA. Looked at a new Remington recently. It is SA. CZ has a new SA striker fired pistol out.
Sorry, but no. The M&P and Ruger are DAO. And if not having a safety is a problem for you Smith and Ruger offer their guns with or without a safety.

FWIW I actually like the option of a thumb safety and may well end up with a Ruger American with the safety. I already own a LC9S with a safety and wouldn't mind if Glocks had them. I'd always have the option to use it or not just like on the Ruger and Smith's.

On the other hand, the Glock and all other striker fired guns without a safety are perfectly safe as long as carried in a proper holster. The only time I'm uncomfortable with them are when used as nightstand guns or in a vehicle when not in a holster. I just won't use a Glock in that manner with a loaded chamber.
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Old June 18, 2017, 06:17 PM   #27
Jim Watson
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The M&P and Ruger are DAO.
I don't know about the Ruger but the Plastic M&P has no more striker movement by trigger pull than a full cocked CZ75 which has the worst hammer camback I have seen.
Of course a "trigger job" removes the camming action of striker and hammer in both of those guns.
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Old June 18, 2017, 06:40 PM   #28
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Personally, I am comfortable with guns that have a minimum 5 lb trigger pull, modern internal drop safety systems, and a fair amount of trigger pre-travel to clear the drop safety. I do not feel that these handguns need a manual thumb safety, and the markets seem to agree with me on this point. For my own use, I prefer about a 6 lb trigger. And for duty use, I would not modify any of these guns to have a trigger pull lighter than the factory weight.

I believe the question of single action vs double action is largely an issue of semantics and definitions. I am not aware of a specific definition that states how much the striker spring can be pre-cocked and still have the pistol be considered double action. For this reason, I have changed the terminology I use, and I now call this whole class of pistols "modern striker fired." I used to call these guns "striker fired double action only," but on some of these guns the trigger pull does not cock the striker a meaningful amount, so DAO does not really apply.

I have looked very closely at the internal fire controls of the Smith & Wesson M&P line, and I would consider them single action if I was going to use one of those names. However, I prefer to call them "modern striker fired," since I think their safety and function is very comparable to a Glock, and I would be comfortable carrying either one.
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Old June 18, 2017, 06:41 PM   #29
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If the issue is trigger weight, then the differences among the various striker guns will be negligible. A wrongly placed finger may fire any of them. If the issue is pulling it when startled, you'll yank a 12 lb trigger as quick as a 6 lb trigger.
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Old June 18, 2017, 06:53 PM   #30
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On the other hand, the Glock and all other striker fired guns without a safety are perfectly safe as long as carried in a proper holster. The only time I'm uncomfortable with them are when used as nightstand guns or in a vehicle when not in a holster. I just won't use a Glock in that manner with a loaded chamber
I assume you mean any situation in which you may grab for the gun and could accidentally grab the trigger. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable using any gun in that manner
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Old June 18, 2017, 07:53 PM   #31
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The biggest bag of BS new novice shooters have been sold is the "It's got 41 redundant passive safeties, a manual safety will get you killed" BS. So the woman or Guy that's never owned a firearm before, never set foot in the field, never learned not to shoot the dog and instead the rabbit.Never had it drilled in their head over and over and over again about finger on the trigger, muzzle pointed away from everyone, never spent the first 7 years of their shooting career with a mentor. Most have never spent 100's or 1000's of hours with a firearm in their hand, probably never really learned the basics. Instead they kinda remember hearing something about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction during a 30 second droning voice from an "instructor" that went in one ear, and out the other while dreaming about Starbucks or posting to Snap chat their newest plastic pistol. An hour shooting wax bullets (maybe) and they have their CHP.

They take that pistol stuff it down their pants in a plastic holster not knowing anything about how the trigger works other than you put your finger here. Or mabye she tosses it in a purse with all the other trash and forgets about it.

Sometime several months later they may go to the range and try and remember how to load, and shoot it. May or may not remember not to cover folks with the muzzle. May or may not know how to disassemble and clean their firearm.

The sad news is a few end up shooting themselves in the leg, letting their kid find the gun and shooting someone, or leaving their gun in the walmart restroom. Sad truth is my kids at 8 or 9 were more prepared to carry a firearm than 80% of the folks out there.

Only after addressing inexperience can we actually have a conversation about the slab sided auto and if they're "safe" or not. All the silly BS about if the striker gun is SA, DA or DAO or partially cocked, or decocked or is light, too light, or has creep is just dancing around the real question of manual safety or not.
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Old June 18, 2017, 08:19 PM   #32
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Has the "Glock Leg" syndrome popped up in the newer striker-fired pistols like the VP9, PPQ, etc?.....

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Old June 19, 2017, 01:30 AM   #33
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I am not opposed to the pistols...

But he has a point on many of the newer designs, and the M&P being... In effect... SA triggers.

They do have more takeup and total trigger travel than traditional SA pistols using a hammer, but are mechanically similar in function internally.


On the Glock, the slide cocks the striker only partially, maybe 50% give or take. Then the trigger physically moves the striker back the rest of the distance before release. I tend to call this a partially cocked DA.


On pistols like the M&P, HK, and others the striker is held by a sear, that rotates out of the way, the striker sits at its full rearward travel point when at rest in the normal shooting configuration. The PPQ uses a weird falling sear like arrangement, but is in effect the same as the rotating sears.

Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial DA.

Now they all have drop safeties, and longer trigger pulls to help increase safety... So I have no problems with them myself... My carry guns are M&Ps of various models.


Its just that from a pure mechanical standpoint, of how the striker is released... They are in effect SA. The new Canik even puts it on the side of the slide... "SA"

So yeah... There is not a really good cut and dry "this much movement is required for DA" definition... I look at it like this.

If the trigger can draw the hammer (or striker) to the rear and fire the pistol, when said hammer (or striker) is in a fully relaxed state... Then it is a DA. (Example being a S&W SD series, or the Walther P99 which is DA/SA)

If the trigger will not draw the mechanism back from a full rest position, and relies on slide movement to reset the mechanism to a firing state, but the mechanism is not sitting at a position, that should it be released from that point, can reliably ignite a primer... Then it is a partial cock/tension mechanism. (examples being a Glock and the FNS)

If the action requires the slide motion to ready the pistol to fire, and the final position is one that could reliably ignite a primer, should it fall from that point, then it is a SA trigger... A rotating or dropping sear is pretty much a give away of this type. (Examples being an M&P or Springfield XD)

Even if some minor camming is present, that being less than a few percent of the total travel distance. (example, the noticeable hammer camming of a CZ75 in SA mode)

Last edited by marine6680; June 19, 2017 at 01:49 AM.
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Old June 19, 2017, 04:59 AM   #34
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Joe, I'm going to agree with you. Flame suit on!

Gun companies make guns for police and the civilian market. Police want cheap reliable guns of plastic and low cost parts like a Glock. They will plan to train and policy out issues like no safety.

Civilians are posting everyday. We say, gimme
1) lighter triggers
2) smoother pull
3) less creep
4) no safety
5) more capacity
6) ready to use

What would you make? They are making what is asked.

When was the last, "my ppq feels unsafe". My experienced buddy sold his PPQ because he could not train out the occasional pre-sight picture bullet. The rounds went down range, but often by muscle memory only! Call that safe?
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Old June 19, 2017, 05:24 AM   #35
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OK it seems that at least some of you do understand the simple concept of SA. Now that is clear to some but where do we draw the line about how light the trigger can be before the guns needs a manual safety? How many of you would carry a pistol with no manual safety with a 2lb trigger? Even though the gun is designed where it is basically impossible to fire without a trigger pull?
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Old June 19, 2017, 05:27 AM   #36
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The Ruger American is a SA pistol..
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Old June 19, 2017, 06:13 AM   #37
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I used to carry a 1911. It had a 4.5lb crisp trigger. About 99% of the time it was cocked and locked. Had more than one person that did not know much about guns tell me I was an idiot for carrying a cocked pistol. Years ago some police depts. would not allow their people to carry a single action gun. The M&P is called a DAO to make some people feel better. But a quick look at how the gun functions tells us it is a SA. There is nothing wrong with the M&P. They are fine guns. I would never buy one simply because S&W flat out lies about the gun calling it DAO. No matter if some people are right or wrong in their fear of SA guns they should not be lied to about how the gun functions. I own an XD. It is a SA design. The grip safety makes me feel better about carrying it. I also carry a Glock. I had the chance to get a H&K VP9 at a very good price. I passed. I was offered a chance to take it home for a couple of days and try it out before I bought it. It shot so well it was amazing. One of the reasons for that was the light crisp SA trigger. It was just too light for an everyday carry gun. I am an experienced shooter with a lot of training but I worry about some people without a lot of experience carrying guns like that and considering the fact that some of these released recently have even shorter and lighter triggers makes it worse.
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Old June 19, 2017, 06:23 AM   #38
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[QUOTE][Joe, I'm going to agree with you. Flame suit on!

Gun companies make guns for police and the civilian market. Police want cheap reliable guns of plastic and low cost parts like a Glock. They will plan to train and policy out issues like no safety.

Civilians are posting everyday. We say, gimme
1) lighter triggers
2) smoother pull
3) less creep
4) no safety
5) more capacity
6) ready to use

What would you make? They are making what is asked.

When was the last, "my ppq feels unsafe". My experienced buddy sold his PPQ because he could not train out the occasional pre-sight picture bullet. The rounds went down range, but often by muscle memory only! Call that safe? /QUOTE] I can see how that could happen. I can also understand how that could happen under real stress. One time in my life I had to point my gun at another human being. Despite a lot of experience and training when it hits the fan you are not the calm and cool person you are on the range. I was lucky I did not have to shoot this nut case. He was quickly brought under control by someone else. There is a good possibility I would have accidently shot this man if I had been packing a gun with such a light trigger.
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Old June 19, 2017, 06:44 AM   #39
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This is a multi decade "trend." Whether "SA" or "DA" it just amounts to a trigger pull without a manual safety.

Good procedures and very good holsters are the key to safety.
EDIT: some may desire a manual safety as they don't trust the setup. That is fine and a time honored tradition. Others believe good practices and kydex provide the needed level of safety. That is also fine and a time honored tradition.

Shoot what you are comfortable with. For the military an police, well I would not presume to make their decisions for them, although I may criticize them personally.

Last edited by zincwarrior; June 19, 2017 at 07:19 AM.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:33 AM   #40
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It is an interesting topic and there is a trend towards light, crisp striker triggers with very little travel (after take up). Personally, when I tried them at the store, I felt the PPQ, VP9 and 320 were a little lighter "feeling" than I preferred in a carry gun (Im not going to bother getting into the semantics battle of what is a "true" SA trigger or not).

Now, I like Glocks, carry Glocks and am used to and proficient with their trigger, so that is my comparison. Could I adjust to a PPQ, be proficient and safe with a little range/dry fire time? Yes, safe handling is a skill to practice constantly, regardless of platform (I do carry Glocks appendix, afterall, not much room for complacency there).

So, are they lighter triggers? Yeah. Thats what the consumer wants. Are they for me? Not at this time.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:46 AM   #41
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I hear you. For a long time I carried a 1911 with a nice very crisp trigger and manual safety. Later I switched to an M&Pc with 6.5lb trigger and no safety. I would not carry the 1911without the safety on, and just accept the heavier trigger pull for carrying without a safety.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:46 AM   #42
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Trust no one, especially not a mechanical devise.
I was trying out a striker designed pistol that was supposed to have a mag safety.
You know, the kind that won't fire a round in the chamber when the mag isn't in place.
So I removed the mag to see, and it fired.
So much for trying to protect ourselves from ourselves.
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Old June 19, 2017, 08:54 AM   #43
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Quote:
Glocks are not SA
It sure feels like one to me. It definitely doesn't feel like the long trigger on my revolvers.
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Old June 19, 2017, 09:14 AM   #44
seeker_two
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Originally Posted by marine6680 View Post
I am not opposed to the pistols...

But he has a point on many of the newer designs, and the M&P being... In effect... SA triggers.

They do have more takeup and total trigger travel than traditional SA pistols using a hammer, but are mechanically similar in function internally.


On the Glock, the slide cocks the striker only partially, maybe 50% give or take. Then the trigger physically moves the striker back the rest of the distance before release. I tend to call this a partially cocked DA.


On pistols like the M&P, HK, and others the striker is held by a sear, that rotates out of the way, the striker sits at its full rearward travel point when at rest in the normal shooting configuration. The PPQ uses a weird falling sear like arrangement, but is in effect the same as the rotating sears.

Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial DA.

Now they all have drop safeties, and longer trigger pulls to help increase safety... So I have no problems with them myself... My carry guns are M&Ps of various models.


Its just that from a pure mechanical standpoint, of how the striker is released... They are in effect SA. The new Canik even puts it on the side of the slide... "SA"

So yeah... There is not a really good cut and dry "this much movement is required for DA" definition... I look at it like this.

If the trigger can draw the hammer (or striker) to the rear and fire the pistol, when said hammer (or striker) is in a fully relaxed state... Then it is a DA. (Example being a S&W SD series, or the Walther P99 which is DA/SA)

If the trigger will not draw the mechanism back from a full rest position, and relies on slide movement to reset the mechanism to a firing state, but the mechanism is not sitting at a position, that should it be released from that point, can reliably ignite a primer... Then it is a partial cock/tension mechanism. (examples being a Glock and the FNS)

If the action requires the slide motion to ready the pistol to fire, and the final position is one that could reliably ignite a primer, should it fall from that point, then it is a SA trigger... A rotating or dropping sear is pretty much a give away of this type. (Examples being an M&P or Springfield XD)

Even if some minor camming is present, that being less than a few percent of the total travel distance. (example, the noticeable hammer camming of a CZ75 in SA mode)
Great description!

This is why I think the SD9VE is the best gun for a beginning shooter. The DAO trigger lets the shooter learn trigger control in a safe way....not unlike a DA revolver. It's a forgiving learning curve. SA triggers like the VP9 & XD are better saved for more experienced shooters. Glocks are in a middle place. With a NY trigger, they come close to the SD9VE. As is, I put them closer to SA than DAO.

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Old June 19, 2017, 09:41 AM   #45
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Just came from the gunshop. I looked at the Ruger American. They had one with the manual safety and one without. They are total SA guns. There is no way they can be described any other way. I also looked at the new Remington striker fired 9mm. It is the same. Both guns are total SA designs. Does not matter much to me if one likes SA or DA or DAO nothing changes the fact that these guns are SA.
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Old June 19, 2017, 09:44 AM   #46
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The SD9VE is possibly the best buy in a handgun you can find. They are as good and as reliable as many other guns costing much more.
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Old June 19, 2017, 09:50 AM   #47
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I personally like a trigger to be 5-6lb for defense use... No lighter, but a little heavier is fine if the trigger is otherwise good.

I do feel the partial tension system on pistols like the Glock and FNS are probably the overall safest of the modern manual safetyless striker pistols, excluding some true DAO designs... But they are not the only ones I feel are suitably safe for defense use.

For me, the light crisp 5.5lb trigger on my PPQ is fine... I don't feel it is unsafe. The total trigger pull is long enough, I feel, to be safe should you be mindful of proper techniques and reholstering procedures.

A sig 320 has a pretty short take up before the break, some might say too short, but all the ones I have felt are 6.5-7lb out of the box. Which I think helps maintain an acceptable level of safety.

The VP9 has less overall travel than a PPQ and more than the 320, and is about the shortest i would want on a defensive pistol, with a relatively light and crisp trigger. Out of the box though, they are not as light and crisp as a PPQ. So I feel they are safe if you follow the rules as mentioned above...


It comes down to a combination of factors for me, on whether I feel a given trigger is acceptable and safe... Balancing out good pull with margin for safety.

It's the same reason it bugs me to no end when people want to put in light 4lb single stage triggers in a defensive AR, or even a 4-4.5lb two stage. I use the same 5-6lb range for an AR, and preferably a two stage over a single stage... Or a decent milspec trigger


As far as a manual safety... They are only as good as the user, same as any striker pistol without a safety.

If you fail to properly use the safety, you can be arguably less safe than with a striker pistol minus a safety.

Modern doctrine has you swipe off a manual safety on the draw, so it's not like it's going to be any help preventing a stray trigger finger from pulling the trigger prematurely.


In the end it is up to the user to be safe, and no mechanical safety is able to prevent every or any given act of negligence.

Any gun capable of being made ready to fire, can also be fired unintentionally.

So long as the given firearm is designed well, and is mechanically sound and safe... And the trigger function can allow for some level of a margin of error... I am fine with it.


I will add, that proper training, knowledge, and adherence to safety rules is very important regardless of firearm design, but some are less tolerant of lapses than others.

Last edited by marine6680; June 19, 2017 at 10:16 AM.
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Old June 19, 2017, 10:12 AM   #48
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Seeker two said, "Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial D"

That is correct. Positive sear engagement. The majority of SA guns of all types have this feature to some degree. Some have it to the degree that it can be seen, such as the CZ75 and some to the point it can not be seen. My Mossberg shotgun and the military trigger on the AR15 is like that.
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Old June 19, 2017, 10:18 AM   #49
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The Ruger American I looked at today no matter how slowly you pulled the trigger I could not see any rearward movement of the striker. The sear drops and releases the striker. Any positive sear engagement that it may have can not be felt or seen. On my XD you can see this to some degree just a few thousands of an inch. About like the M&P
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Old June 19, 2017, 10:22 AM   #50
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This is silly.

There is ZERO functional difference between the M&P and the Glock. They are neither Single Action, nor Double Action, they are Striker Fired.

The M&P and the Glock both exist in a 90% cocked state and the trigger cocks the last 10% and then........ sweet release.

Both have the same approximate trigger pull weight. Both have trigger safeties, drop safeties, the XD adds a grip safety but is otherwise the same.

As far as SAFE carry goes, I carry a P-Series SIG so I favor the DA/SA system and ride the hammer into the holster. It's demonstrably safer than a Striker Fired gun with the possible exception of the XD which one can relax their grip and disengage the grip safety on re-holstering.

But no gun is 100% safe as you know. Operator error will always be a greater danger than whatever gun design you prefer.
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