More old weird ammo, this time .30-30

[Geezerbiker]

I must be really bored tonight since I wasn't planning to go though this old ammo for a long time... Anyway I have over 100 rounds of old .30-30 ammo and most of it was poorly stored so I ran it all though my tumbler since the media was getting close to replacement time anyway.

They look sort of OK but the plan always was to tear them down some day when I was bored enough to feel like recovering the components. In with the mix was one .35-35 round and one .32 Win special rounds that will join my odd ball ammo collection.

Most of the rounds are the usual R-P, Rem-UMC, Win SuperX and FC head stamps. Then we get to the odd stuff. There's a bunch of Peters rounds. I know Peters in the P in R-P but I couldn't find when Remington stopped using that name. There are some head stamped Superspeed and I seem to recall that was another Winchester brand.

There are a few that look really freaking old. One is head stamped WRA .30 WCF and I have a USC Co. .30-30. These really old looking ones have very rounded primers like is usually only seen on antique ammo. I suspect this have mercuric primers and might not be safe to try and deprime.

Anybody familiar with these head stamped rounds?


Tony

[44 AMP]

'll have to do some checking can't remember exactly any more but I think Remington bought the Peters Cartridge company some time before WWII.

There is also the Union Metallic Cartridge company absorbed by Remington (don't remember when) creating ammo stamped Rem-UMC.

Super -X and Super Speed were Winchester ammo lines, I've got a bunch of their brass in the 70s..

WRA is of course Winchester Repeating Arms and I think USC was US Cartridge company but don't quote me on that...

A lot of the early primers were "dome shaped" (convex??) they've been out of use for generations now, but back in the 70s when you bought a reloading press it still came with 4 priming stems. Two each one for the flat and one for the "domed" primers in each size. Lyman did anyway...

[Mike Irwin]

I've seen people say that the rounded primers are mercuric, and that companies started going to the flat-faced primer after adopting non-mercuric primer blends in the late 1920s/early 1930s.


"In the mix... .35-35 round..."

I'm assuming you meant .25-35 round and that was a typo. As far as I know, American manufacturers never produced a .35-35 cartridge.

The .35-30 is known, but it was a wildcat, never a production round, that was cobbled up to salvage worn out .30-30 WCF barrels in the early days.

R-P is still used by Remington, and has been since the 1950s when the Rem-UMC headstamp was generally phased out.

Remington still uses the Peters mark on shotshells, and it looks as if they may be offering Peters stamped rifle cartridges again.

Remington purchased the Peters Cartridge Company in 1934 and kept the plant in Kings Mills, Ohio, in production. Ammunition loaded there was marked as being loaded by the Peters Cartridge Division.

Remington closed the plan near the end of WW II and moved all production to the main plant in Bridgeport.

The Bridgeport plant was the location of Union Metallic Cartridge Company, which merged with Remington in 1912.

The USC Co is the United States Cartridge Company. It was founded in 1869 by General Benjamin "The Beast" Butler of Civil War fame/infamy. During WW I it was the primary supplier of ammunition to the US military. Sometime after the war Winchester acquired it and the USC headstamp was dropped.

Super Speed was a Winchester mark.

[Geezerbiker]

It's a case of fat fingers again. I did mean .25-35. While I've always thought it would be cool to have a rifle in this caliber, this is the first time I've handled the ammo for one.

Somewhere I have one .22 Savage Highpower round. It's an odd fellow too...

I figured the USC Co rounds were really old but now it's looking like over 100 years. So those 7 or 8 rounds will be added to my odd rounds box. I suppose the WRA round is about the same age?

I guess the next question is when did Remington stop using the Peters brand on rifle cartridges? They don't look old enough to be collectable so I'll probably pull them down along with all the others. Like I said, most of the lot doesn't look like it was stored properly.

I probably have a life supply of .30-30 brass and bullets and I'm mostly doing this because, quite often I don't have anything better to do.

Tony

[Mike Irwin]

"I suppose the WRA round is about the same age?"

My guess is, based on what I THINK I know about the primer, yes, probably 100 years old or more.


"I guess the next question is when did Remington stop using the Peters brand on rifle cartridges?"

That I can't answer.

[bamaranger]

Not to be a Safety Sally, but I was under the impression that tumbling live ammo was a no-no. Not due to detonation in the tumbler, but changing the structure of the powder and effecting burn rate and possibly pressure. This would apply if one intended to shoot said ammo.

[Geezerbiker]

That's an old reloaders tale. It's perfectly safe to tumble live ammo.

Tony

[Mike Irwin]

" It's perfectly safe to tumble live ammo."

Until it isn't...

[Jim Watson]

Union Metallic Cartridge Company, which merged with Remington in 1912.

Nice way of putting it. I think it was pretty much a bailout of a sagging Remington Arms. Nothing new under the sun, eh?

[Mike Irwin]

"I think it was pretty much a bailout of a sagging Remington Arms."

No, not really.

Hartley & Graham owned Remington (purchased it in 1888) as part of its sporting goods empire.


Schuyler, Hartley & Graham already owned UMC -- they had formed it just after the Civil War from the purchase of two other companies.

It was a logical move to bring them under one combined roof.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

" It's perfectly safe to tumble live ammo."

Until it isn't...

Especially when said ammo is 100 years old. It's not like 30-30 ammo is rare. Put the old stuff on display.

[50 shooter]

Call any of the major ammunition manufacturers and they'll tell you that it's perfectly safe to tumble live ammo. They do it all the time so that the ammo they sell you is nice and shiny.

As for 100 year old ammo, I don't think I would as it might fall apart! Modern ammo yes, I do my own reloads if I want them shiny.

[44 AMP]

Call any of the major ammunition manufacturers and they'll tell you that it's perfectly safe to tumble live ammo. They do it all the time so that the ammo they sell you is nice and shiny.

I don't doubt it. The ammo is NEW and they tumble it for a limited period of time.

Change those conditions, and results might be different.
Why bother with even minimal risk?
If you want to clean up old ammo, DO IT BY HAND.

#0000 steel wool and some "elbow grease" works wonders.

[50 shooter]

I would add that if the ammo is considered collectable, do not clean it! You'll ruin any value that it might have had.

Collectors want to see the ammo in "as is" condition. Most Collectors are wary of stuff that's been cleaned up. Just like a barn find car, leave the dirt, dust and rust on it. It will be worth more unless you do a frame off build.

[Geezerbiker]

I call BS on this ammo collecting. Unless the round is extremely rare most collectors won't pay more than the going rate for new ammo.

So old .30-30 or .30-06 isn't going to bring in that much. Also after tumbling all 112 rounds together, the old stuff still looks old and tarnished just not green and tarnished...

Tony

[Grant 14]

Geezerbiker, I have to disagree about not paying more than new prices. Many years ago I was talking to a collector about my Dads 280 Ross, and mentioned that I had fired a number of old Kynock rounds , and I thought he was going to cry. He said I had been firing $20 rounds. I used to have to go to gun shows to find ammo for my 25 Stevens, 7 by 61 Sharp&Hart, 303 Savage and a few other odd balls. Because of the expense of these rounds, I eventually got rid of all of them. I kept my 25-35 since it was what I shot my first deer with. Collectors often pay more than people that just want to shoot the old guns. I have only conventional calibers now and life (shooting) is easier. Locate a cartridge collectors group and you might find that you are sitting on a small gold mine. Its all fun. Grant

[50 shooter]

Collectors will pay more for ammo that considered collectable, even newer ammo.

.30-06 accelerator ammo isn't that old but because it was only made for a short time, it's considered highly collectable.

Same goes for some military ammo, people want it and will pay top dollar for it.

Older ammo in the original box is worth up to 10 times what it sold for. Heck, sometimes the box is worth more than the ammo!

[44 AMP]

There have even been times when a box of ammo was worth more than the gun it was made to be shot from. 5mm Rem Mag was like that, once, don't know if it still is, since I heard some (foreign?) outfit is making ammo for it now.

[Geezerbiker]

You guys are proving my point. Unless the ammo is really oddball, old ammo and even really old ammo is just that, old. So 100 year old .30-30 or .30-06 is not worth as much as factory fresh rounds...

Tony

[44 AMP]

So 100 year old .30-30 or .30-06 is not worth as much as factory fresh rounds...

If the intent is shooting, then no.

If the intent is to preserve rare old things, then yes.

But ONLY to people who are willing to pay more in order to do that.

Old things are not valuable because they are old, they get valuable because someone WANTS it. And, is willing to pay a premium to get what they want, in the condition they want it.

100 year old 30-30 ammo is worth more to the right person because its rare. To the next guy who just wants to go shoot a deer, its not worth more than new ammo, and usually not as much, to him.

[T. O'Heir]

"...structure of the powder and effecting burn rate..." That has pretty much been refuted. Still wouldn't tumble live ammo myself either though.
"...100 year old .30-30 or .30-06 is not worth as much as..." Nope. That'd be some 100 year old ammo. If you find a bunch of W.W. I or II vintage .30-06 in decent condition and in the original boxes, you have a small pile of money. Pre-1900 vintage .30-30, in boxes, might be worth some money too, but it depends on condition and brand.
"...Collectors are wary of stuff that's..." Yep. Just like collectors of anything. It's friggin' daft what people will collect. Like pop bottles(soda to some of ya'll. snicker.) or dinner plates. Or empty cartridge boxes. Geez!

[Geezerbiker]

I have 5 boxes of mid WWII surplus '06 ammo that has been well stored but the boxes are begining to fall apart. I've been following listings for similar on gun broker and it doesn't sell for much...

To start with I had about 110 rounds of .30-30 ammo and some of it was nasty looking and others not so bad. I had no idea that a few were over a 100 years old but I might not have know until I got them cleaned up. I'm not asking anyone to buy my .30-30 rounds, I just wanted to know what they all are. I remain unapologetic, it's my ammo and I wanted to clean it up.

I sort of considered selling my stash of vintage AP ammo but it's not selling for much and my reasons for collecting it in the first place remain...

Tony