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Old October 15, 2019, 07:10 AM   #51
agtman
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Seriously, am I missing something?
Yes, for well over a decade at least. Possibly you have a medical condition known as informational myopia.

Depending on how you calculate it, the 10mm's resurgence - along with the increased availability of 'full-power' (i.e., real 10mm) ammo - started in the early 2000s, most notably with Texas Ammo Company and Double Tap leading the way. So let's call it about 16-17 years.


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Because as far as I can see 10mm is no more popular than it was previously, nobody is offering any new handguns chambered in the cartridge, and the hype train appears to have come to an abrupt stop in 2018.
Huh?

The 10mm's surge in popularity through out the last 16yrs or so is what's led to more pistols being chambered for it today than at any time in the '80s or '90s. Like Sig's line of 10mm P220s, or Glock's adding the Gen4 G40 longslide to its 10mm line-up. Gun-makers don't do that for dying cartridges like the .45GAP or .357 Sig.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Not a problem. You are herewith corrected.

New 10mm pistols are around .... and other platforms are coming out as well:

10mm PDW
https://www.extarusa.com/ep10.htm

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Old October 15, 2019, 12:29 PM   #52
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It's simple--if you want to take advantage of what 10mm can offer--than go for it. If not, then don't; and move along please.
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Old October 15, 2019, 01:16 PM   #53
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"...real 10mm velocities..." What do you think that is?
In the old days when the Colt Delta Elite was the only 10mm pistol(think in terms of a 'stock' 1911A1 that shot just like one with the Norma ammo.) and Norma the only available ammo, a Colt Rep, at a shoot(pins and plates. Great fun.) up here, provided both to anyone who wanted to play with it. The guy even said it was no match for the assorted "race guns" at the shoot. I don't recall the bullet weight, but at the time Norma loaded 200, 165 and 170 grain bullets. 200gr JTC @ 1200 fps, 165gr JHP @ 1400 fps, and 170gr JHP @ 1300 fps.
The result of my playing with it was, "It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."
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Old October 15, 2019, 02:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."
As the owner of both a Glock 20L (6" slide and 6" 10mm barrel) and 21L (6" slide and 6" 45acp/45 Super barrel) I have no grudge for or against one platform as I have, handload for, and shoot all three.

I shoot all three calibers in my custom 6" Glock longslide I developed way back 15 yrs ago in 2004. With thousands of rds of both full power 10mm and thousands of rds of 45acp / 45acp+P and in the last 5 or 6 years, full power 45 Super, I'm comfortable with evaluating the performance of all 3 calibers.

So, I am confident that I can give an accurate assessment of all 3 calibers and that assessment is that O'Heir's statement above is patently false as both factual and anecdotal evidence abounds disputing his claim.

Pistol Platform: Glock G20/21L 6" German steel slide, Convertible pistol I developed in 2004. The 45 cal barrel is a 6" Jarvis while the 6" 10mm barrel is KKM's 1st ever 45-10MM conversion barrel I commissioned Kevin to build for me in mid 2004. Neither barrel has a muzzle brake.

Chrono Test Circumstances: Oehler 35 Chrono set up at my range - 6,100ft asl on an 84° day. 10 shot strings averaged.

Results:

G21L 45acp: 200grn Speer Gold Dot bullets over full published load of Unique Powder in Winchester 45acp brass w/CCI 300 (LP) primer: 1,014fps producing 457ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 200grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,350fps producing 809ft/lbs ME

As anyone can see, the 200grn 10mm produces 33% more Velocity and 77% more Muzzle Energy in the same platform, on the same range, on the same day, with the same chrono.

The performance of the rds is even more dramatic when one considers that the smaller diameter 10mm with it's higher BC, has a flatter trajectory giving it a hunting advantage.

Now, lets look at the 45 Super vs the 10mm to see if a more powerful .45 cal than the .45acp/.45acp+P can outperform it.

Pistol Platform: Same as above.

Chrono Test Circumstances: Same as above.

G21L 45 Super: 200grn Speer Gold Dot over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 45 Super Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,307fps producing 758ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 165grn Speer Gold Dot bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,589fps producing 925ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 180grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,479fps producing 874ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 200grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,350fps producing 809ft/lbs ME

The 10mm can produce significantly better performance when shooting a 165grn 10mm loads as they produce 29% more Velocity and 22+% more Muzzle Energy than the 200grn 45 Super.

Further, the 10mm can produce significantly better performance when shooting a 180grn 10mm loads as they produce 13% more Velocity and 15+% more Muzzle Energy than the 200grn 45 Super.

And finally, as identified above, even the 200grn 10mm load beats the 45 Super's in both velocity and muzzle energy. And, as I said before, the performance of the 10mm rds is even more advanced when one considers that the smaller diameter 10mm with it's higher BC, has a flatter trajectory giving it a hunting advantage.

Conclusion: If you want something to punch holes in paper at close handgun ranges with a semi-auto handgun, a 45acp will do as well as the 10mm. However, so will a 40s&w, a 9mm, or even a .380. That's not the point of the 10mm. It's a high performance caliber suited very well to take hunting either as a primary, or as I do when I go 'woods walking' in the Rockies, as a sidearm for protection against both 2 and 4 legged threats.
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Old October 15, 2019, 03:38 PM   #55
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If you want something to punch holes in paper at close handgun ranges with a semi-auto handgun, a 45acp will do as well as the 10mm. However, so will a 40s&w, a 9mm, or even a .380. That's not the point of the 10mm. It's a high performance caliber suited very well to take hunting either as a primary, or as I do when I go 'woods walking' in the Rockies, as a sidearm for protection against both 2 and 4 legged threats.
BINGO!!! We have a winner! ...

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Old October 15, 2019, 04:16 PM   #56
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10mm stops the Big 'Uns:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/ala...#axzz62SYjCFq6
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Old October 15, 2019, 04:50 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by stagpanther
Sig also makes nice 10mm "off the shelf" ammo.
Yes they do. Sig is a New Hampshire based company and very close to where I live. When I initially bought my Kimber 10mm it was very fussy with ammo. It was FTF'ing consistently with Sellier & Bellot 180gr TC ammo. I happen to be at one of my LGS's and to my surprise they had Sig 180 gr RN 10mm ammo. I was kind of surprised, I didn't know there was a RN profile bullet available in .40 . To my delight my Kimber run's the Sig RN ammo flawlessly. Great stuff, and reasonably priced for 10mm (I believe I paid $22 for a box)

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/10mm-...-ball-fmj.html
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Old October 15, 2019, 08:22 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...real 10mm velocities..." What do you think that is?

In the old days when the Colt Delta Elite was the only 10mm pistol(think in terms of a 'stock' 1911A1 that shot just like one with the Norma ammo.) and Norma the only available ammo, a Colt Rep, at a shoot(pins and plates. Great fun.) up here, provided both to anyone who wanted to play with it. The guy even said it was no match for the assorted "race guns" at the shoot. I don't recall the bullet weight, but at the time Norma loaded 200, 165 and 170 grain bullets. 200gr JTC @ 1200 fps, 165gr JHP @ 1400 fps, and 170gr JHP @ 1300 fps.

The result of my playing with it was, "It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."


Really. Well the 10 mm will take down a Grizzly Bear. A 45 ACP isn’t. So there are differences and if you look in Alaska a bow hunter tracking deer blood was charge by an 850lb Grizzly and took it down with two shots from his GLOCK 20 10mm. Has the photo and report from Wildlife authority. Why don’t you go test your theory and see what happens. Go back to sleep.


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Old October 16, 2019, 02:04 AM   #59
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can you point me to independent chrono data for those loads? I know companies seem to exaggerate their box flap velocities from time to time.
Looks like there's a lot of it out there if you poke around a bit. It's a little tricky though since some of the loadings are new and chrono data isn't always dated.

Anyway, this source shows the Federal 180gr loading at about 1230fps out of a 4.6"bbl. I think Federal claims that one runs 1275fps out of a 5" tube. So you're not wrong that factory #s are often a bit optimistic. That tends to happen with all calibers, not just 10mm.

However, keeping in mind what the goal is, we see that even without the extra 40-50fps that the website figures tacked on to reality (ignoring the barrel length difference in the test gun to what Federal used for their testing), the ammo is definitely much hotter than .40S&W.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/

If you're really interested, it shouldn't be difficult to find 10mm factory ammo from major manufacturers that runs much hotter than .40S&W. That has always been true, although I would say that the selection is better now than I can remember in the past.
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Old October 16, 2019, 07:06 AM   #60
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that 180gr. was a trophy bonded solid.... I'd like to see some self defense rounds.... what I'd like to see is a 165gr+ JHP going 1,300 fps from a G20 or 5" 1911. a round that can be found on the shelf of a local gun shop that doesn't cost $1 per round. the Win STHP tried to come close but you see they are over 100 fps slower than advertised and are at that $1 per round threshold.
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Old October 16, 2019, 07:20 AM   #61
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that 180gr. was a trophy bonded solid.... I'd like to see some self defense rounds.... what I'd like to see is a 165gr+ JHP going 1,300 fps from a G20 or 5" 1911. a round that can be found on the shelf of a local gun shop that doesn't cost $1 per round. the Win STHP tried to come close but you see they are over 100 fps slower than advertised and are at that $1 per round threshold.
I feel like you just picked up the goal posts, started running back and forth with them a little bit, and then set them down in an entirely different spot than they started.
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Old October 16, 2019, 08:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I feel like you just picked up the goal posts, started running back and forth with them a little bit, and then set them down in an entirely different spot than they started.
how so? my preference for the 10mm is self defense against criminal attack not hog hunting. that's no secret.
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Old October 16, 2019, 01:36 PM   #63
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Get then all!

First up, I could care less what the Big Box has in the ammo department. I shoot constantly and have not bought a box of factory ammo in over ten years. I reload them all. Furthermore, I got a G20, G21 and an HKC in 45 ACP. Also, a neat Series 80 1911. The real answer is to buy them all and reload.

You can be a 45 ACP man on even number days. On the odd day you can be a 10mm advocate. Works great. Today, it's the 45 ACP beats all. Tomorrow is another day where the 10mm is unbeatable. :-)
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Old October 16, 2019, 03:47 PM   #64
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Never understood the 40 or 10mm

Bought 3 41 Mags in the 70s, 3", 6", and 8 3/8". With 200s, I got 1298 in 3", 1475 in 6", and 1550 in 8 3/8". Didn't shoot 210s in the 3", but got 1400 in 6" and 1475 in 8 3/8". Over the years, the 41Mag has been less finicky with top loads than the 357 and the 44 Mag. A top auto load, for me, is a 45acp with a 200gr SWC over 7gr of Unique, for 1000. Tremendous accuracy and barks like a 357.
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Old October 16, 2019, 06:38 PM   #65
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This thread began as a simple discussion of whether the 10mm is gaining or losing popularity. It seems to have morphed into another caliber war, and those discussions never end well. Let's please stay on topic. Thank you.
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Old October 16, 2019, 10:07 PM   #66
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Gaining

Gaining: I'd say from the number of new handguns in 10mm there is a demand. It would be hard to have slow walking and sad music for 10mm today. I'll stick with my old basic plastic 10mm.
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Old October 16, 2019, 10:57 PM   #67
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I bought a G20 about 2-3 years ago----it doesn't get shot regularly but very occasionally----mainly gets used when I take my trips out west.

More shots with an easy reload and way lighter than the S&W 629 that it replaced.
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Old October 17, 2019, 01:13 AM   #68
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...what I'd like to see is a 165gr+ JHP going 1,300 fps from a G20...
The comments I was responding to implied that factory ammo for the 10mm was all equivalent to .40S&W loadings. That if you wanted anything hotter you had to reload or go boutique.

I provided evidence that the implication was incorrect. There is certainly 10mm ammo from major manufacturers that clearly exceeds anything in .40 S&W.

I understand that you have specific preferences in 10mm ammunition, but that's kind of a separate issue to the one I was responding to.
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Old October 17, 2019, 07:45 AM   #69
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It was pointed out that no hollow point bullet supports full 10mm FPS and a 9mm HST does about everything needed in a bullet in general...


Speer (Vista Outdoors which owns CCI and Federal) released their Gold Dot 10mm in low FPS. Why? Does Double Tap or Underwood know more about Speer's own Gold Dot bullet than Vista Outdoors? no.

Sure, you can load the XTP Hornady fast. But so what? The XTP is designed to NOT expand massively like the HST or Gold Dot bullet. So...if HST and Gold Dot are the bar setter for expansion and penetration, what are you getting in a personal defense round that offers less expansion but too much penetration in 10mm hot? Nothing.
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Old October 17, 2019, 10:36 AM   #70
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I think this thread just tanked when 9mm is to out run 10mm. My bet is as the acceptance of 10mm continues more components will be offered. This time round looks like 10 mm will be around for some time. No funeral yet. Got my G20 out. Installed the Lone Wolf barrel as to not defend use of lead bullets.
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Old October 17, 2019, 10:38 AM   #71
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I realized I didn't address the OP's original question, "Whatever happened to the 10mm comeback?" Well, the answer is easy. It didn't go anywhere so it had nowhere to 'come back' from. It's always been more of a hunting caliber in my book so it's appeal is limited.

The question is kinda the same as asking where the 458 Winchester Magnum comeback went. The fact is that it's a big game caliber intended for larger animals than are in North America so it's appeal has always been limited here. It didn't go anywhere either so it also had nowhere to 'come back' from.

The 10mm has some very serious advantages as a woods gun. In a Glock, it's got power, capacity, harsh element resistance, and comfort going for it. As I've said many times before, my G20L, with 17+1rds of 165grn 10mm fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet faster than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads out of a 6" S&W 686. That's correct, larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy.

(Yep, I handload hot 158grn .357 Mag loads for my Rossi leverguns using both H110 and more recently Lil'Gun and I've chrono'd them both at my range. My original comparisons were between Power Pistol in 10mm and H110 in .357 Mag, however, more recently I've switched to Lil'Gun for my .357 Mag ammo. While I've found that Lil'Gun produces higher velocities than H110 in longer barreled rifles, it's actually a bit slower in pistol length barrels as Hodgdon's own load data confirms.)

Yes, it's true that the 10mm is larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy from a 6" barreled pistol than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads are. Plus, my G20L, with 3 times the ammo load on board, is more compact and weighs less than the S&W does with only 6 rounds on board. And, as the S&W is a classic revolver with a high bore axis and an inverted cone shaped grip that's not conducive to a solid hold, my Glock is also significantly faster and more accurate for me in followup shots as well.

And, if that weren't enough, even though the S&W's trigger in single action is much better, it's long pull as a double action in subsequent shots, it makes it significantly harder to produce accurate, rapid repeat shots. Yes, there are those out there who'll say that they can deliver accurate rapid fire with their revolvers and maybe they can, but in 60 years of shooting, I've never been able to get accurate second and subsequent shots with any double action revolver, even an old Taurus 22lr model I wore out shooting that was shaped like a baby 686. (Loved that old pistol.)
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Old October 17, 2019, 08:24 PM   #72
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What 10mm bullet construction outperforms HST 9mm for self defense? None.

Serious. Don't give me weights and lbs. So what?

A recent video from Federal's plant had an employee say the same. So what if it's heavy? If velocity isn't hitting rifle level velocity, so what if the lbs delivered is higher? Literally, what does that matter? It's about hitting expansion and the right depth. Federal of course is the DOD provider at Lake City--aka the largest manufacture of ammunition in the US. Along with ATK, they build rockets. They know more than a guy at Buffalo Bore that buys their bullet and loads it high. (PS, Underwood loads old style "uni-core" CCI bullets, not current Gold Dots)

So what if it's 180gr, 135gr, or 200gr at a million FPS and LBS? Na. Serious. So what?

The point of old day velocity talk was to get expansion. Now HST and Gold Dot and Ranger hit expansion without massive velocity. Velocity that isn't rifle level isn't doing rifle damage. So, velocity isn't the huge variable any longer.

The HST bullet expands and hits the right depth. What more do you think is going to happen?

There is no 10mm bullet that's doing better expansion, staying within reasonable penetration, and not costing my left leg.

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Old October 17, 2019, 09:35 PM   #73
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It was pointed out that no hollow point bullet supports full 10mm FPS * * *
Whoever said that is an unstudied moron in the history of the 10mm cartridge.

Hornady's line of 10mm XTP-HP and FMJ-FP bullets were developed specifically to handle Norma 10mm velocities. This occurred after the FBI publically stated that its primary ballistic goal was penetration, and then signaled it favored the 10mm cartridge over the 9mm and .45acp in satisfying that goal.

This was all before the .40S&W cartridge was even invented.

Other HPs were already being developed by Federal, Remington, and Winchester (STHPs) that would penetrate and expand at Norma-level velocities. This too was, again, before the .40S&W came out.
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Old October 18, 2019, 06:31 AM   #74
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There is no 10mm bullet that's doing better expansion, staying within reasonable penetration, and not costing my left leg
After a discussion about penetration and expansion that last caveat seems to be kind of snuck in there. My 10MMs ride around with 200 grain ammunition in them from UnderWood. Is that outside of the caveat or in it? What is an arm and a leg in cost per round? Some of the 9MM ammo I bought is within 20% when discussing self defense rounds so what is the cut-off?

Comeback? Not sure. A particular cartridge only needs a "critical mass" before its stable. I can readily purchase 10MM ammunition so I would argue it has hit that critical mass. I order virtually all of my ammunition (even for 9MM) in quantity so store shelf stocking is not vital to me. I would not depend on Wally World or the like to stock premium defensive ammunition for anything so I'm not sure that's an appropriate benchmark.

I mean does the .32 need a comeback? As long as ammo is readily available for it its good enough and will support the guns available new chambered in it.

And what exactly is a comeback? Rivaling the 9MM? That is not going to happen with anything in the near future as the goalposts move closer and closer to what the 9MM already does.

All I care about is that the 10MM does not fade into obscurity that has me casting my own bullets and chasing my brass as precious and irreplaceable. I would say it has come back that level where the future supply of ammunition is pretty much assured.
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Old October 18, 2019, 07:17 AM   #75
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Exactly. The XTP round is designed not to massively expand.

You nailed my point.

Now. Why would you want the XTP round in 10mm, which will go beyond where you want/need, when the HST goes where it needs to go and expands more? What does that distance beyond what you want do for you? Nothing.

Possibly hunting? Okay. I buy that.

But for personal defense? You want a XTP that goes too deep with smaller expansion than the HST that expands huge and goes has far as needed?

To this point, the 9mm XTP Custom by Hornady also goes has far as needed, with smaller expansion than the HST.

See? What's the point of 10mm if it's not an argument of hunting? You gain nothing on a defense role. When you match HST 9mm in a bullet in 10mm, the 10mm hollow point is always an older bullet that needed extra velocity to expand. Those days are done. Federal 115gr +P Hi Shok that required high velocity to expand? No longer needed. That bullet still works, but it's inferior to Federals current Gold Dot and HST offering. Heck, even Gold Dot has already updated twice. From "Uni-core" bonded, to Gold Dot, and G2. 10mm Speer from Underwood? Loaded with "Uni-core" bonded. Says so right on their website. That's not the current "G1" or G2 bullet.

Velocity isn't a thing anymore. That's the glory of Gold Dot, HST, Ranger. The velocity needed to open harder/older hollow point rounds isn't required anymore.

Do these bullets support 10mm high FPS without breaking up? Mabye. But what's the point?

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