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Old October 13, 2019, 03:46 PM   #26
American Man
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Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch View Post
american man, thanks for the post. I have a glock 21c that I am trying to decide between 10mm conversion or .45 super. With the .45 super would just need a fullly supported barrel, recoil rod and spring and .45 super brass.
That is all I did... I bought a KKM barrel and a 25lb spring. I started with a 22lb spring and it worked fine, but with the power it was displaying I decided to up the spring power and did not have any malfunctions. I tried to use it in my HK USP but it never worked out. Some of the hardcasts did not sit in the chamber properly and when I switched to the FMJ FN, I kept having FTFs... not seating properly. I got a stronger spring and it still did not work. I think it could have been the magazines... either way I just stuck with the G21.
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Old October 13, 2019, 11:29 PM   #27
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Most people don't start off with a 10mm as a first, second or even third pistol. Let's say you already own: 9/40/45/38/357/44 What in the world is a 10mm going to give you that you "need" or conceivably want in a handgun but don't already have?

A full power 10mm round in a carbine might be a different animal but the velocity curve tends to run on the flat side from 5" to 16" so again what is the advantage? You won't get more power than you will out of 5.56, which gives less recoil, higher capacity and is a fraction of the price per round.
Besides owning no .44's or .45 ACP's, that's where I am now and the reason I want a 10mm is I don't see what a 6 shot .357 or higher caliber gives me vs a 15 round 10mm Glock that weighs half as much gives me.

In regards to .45 ACP, leaving out factory ammo price, I don't see what it does better than 10mm does. Even in the weak 10mm loadings, it's pushing a 200 grain bullet at 1100 fps, a .45 ACP would be doing maybe 950 with a 200 grain pill.
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Old October 13, 2019, 11:32 PM   #28
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"no new 10mm pistols"

I'm not sure what qualifies as a "new" 10mm pistol but what about.......
-low end price: RIA 10mm/1911 in several models
-mid range price: Glock G40 in two versions (I think), Remington and Ruger
1911's, including some 6" versions
-top end: Kimber Target 6"

I'm sure I'm missing some, add your own to the list. Ruger even introduced a REVOLVER in 10mm . That is a far cry from when Colt and Glock were the only handguns in 10mm still in production.
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Old October 13, 2019, 11:38 PM   #29
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Me, I'm wondering if .45 super can be as good or better than 10mm!
I asked that weeks ago. Best I can figure is they both have an equal number of pros and cons. Comes down to do you like having 2 more rounds in a mag with 10 over .45 and if you want a carbine in the future. 10mm is available in carbines, .45 Super... not sure.
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Old October 13, 2019, 11:42 PM   #30
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Before Wal-Mart stopped selling handgun ammo, caliber popularity tied to "mart calibers".
"Mart caliber" = 9mm/40/45 FMJ
Inexpensive 10mm FMJ not available at the mart, so popularity limited.
The end of mart handgun ammo, for many this means go to local gun shop or the inconceivable buy ammo online, maybe in quantity greater than a box or two.
Once exposed to online ammo selection, some may discover that ammo in other calibers like 10mm is easily obtained.
Just maybe they will get a 1911 in 10mm or a 10mm Glock, thanks to enlightenment beyond the former limitation of mart calibers.

Holdouts? Sure.
9mm advocates that prioritize cheapest ammo, most rounds fired in the least amount of time, they will still resist 10mm, along with 40 and 45
Someone content to bet their life on a 32 acp - beyond hope..
Walmart dumping handgun ammo is something I was hoping this would start, people getting out of the 9/40/45/38/357 bubble, but I get the feeling those people will just find a local sporting good store like academy, dunham's, etc. and buy there.

I gotta believe most of the people who have never bought ammo online are old people in their 70s/80s and they're not going to change their ways, nor buy any new guns in calibers they don't already have.

As to your .32 comment, I'm not saying I'm content to bet my life on a .32, but it does have clear advantages to larger calibers for some people.
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Old October 14, 2019, 12:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Forte S&W
@TruthTellers

Thank you for taking the time to write out such a detailed response the thread, especially when you could have just as easily written me off as a troll as others in this thread have. (Do trolls really take the time to type out as much as I did around here? I'm used to seeing trolls just post lazy, inflammatory comments to get maximum attention with minimal effort.)

Yours was just the sort of detailed, tangible response that I was looking for, as it actually explains why there aren't more pistols and ammo being developed for the 10mm Auto cartridge.

It's a real shame too, because I would love to own something along the lines of a Smith & Wesson M&P10mm or a Ruger SR10. Right now the options are rather limited and most of them are single stack 1911s. Other than that there's mostly just Glocks and a few other European pistols. Don't get me wrong, I love European pistols, (my favorite is the Walther PPK/S) but I'd like to own an American-made 10mm pistol.
Ask a good question, get a good answer. What you do with the answer is up to you.

As to your .380 comment, I do think a lot of what makes a non 9/40/45 caliber succeed is the guns available. Before the LCP and P3AT came, the next closest thing in that size was the Kel Tec .32, maybe the Seecamp if you had money to spend, but they were still .32's. A .380 with more power in the same size? Gotta have that!

The same applies to all other unpopular calibers, but the thing with 10mm is that it appeals to those who live outside cities and suburbia, which means not nearly as many as those who buy LCP's.

So that comeback... IDK, I think it's going to take some sort of LE or military organization to adopt them in large quantities.

Or maybe it's not even in a handgun at all. Maybe what would get 10mm selling is some pistol caliber carbine. I see ETS makes 30 round 10mm Glock mags now, imagine 30 rounds of full house .357 Magnum being shot in seconds at distances of 100 yards?

That's got to be useful to some people.

A 5 shot .32 revolver in between a North American Arms Black Widow and a J frame? That's along the lines of the pocket .380 and it would get .32 back in business.
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Old October 14, 2019, 12:30 AM   #32
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Less than ten years ago--if you wanted a 10mm you were pretty much limited to a Glock 20 (with a partially unsupported chamber face and polygonal rifling that couldn't handle lead cast and not able to cycle effectively with "real" full-house 10mm loads) or the colt delta elite that was still trying to emerge from it's reputation for cracked frames. Otherwise, you were going to have to pay thousands of dollars for a custom gun.

A quick search of cheaper than dirt for 10mm weapons returns 85 hits. Buds returns 193 hits. Comeback--fascination of reloaders; call it what you want but the increase in market demand is indisputable.

Not saying reloaders aren't partially driving that market--they are the ones more likely to be aware of the superlative ballistic performance of the cartridge.
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Old October 14, 2019, 06:53 AM   #33
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I gotta believe most of the people who have never bought ammo online are old people in their 70s/80s and they're not going to change their ways, nor buy any new guns in calibers they don't already have.
I have bought ammo on line but it is still cheaper locally after accounting for shipping. Not so much at Walmart (although it was reasonably priced there) but at discount sporting goods places and the Mega Gun shops. They are much more likely to have volume deals.
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Old October 14, 2019, 07:06 AM   #34
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Where I live we don't have particularly large gun stores. It's mostly smaller operations. Ordering from sgammo, even accounting for shipping, is usually cheaper, especially if I split the costs across larger orders.

That said, I still order the cheaper brass options I can find. If to realize the true benefits of 10mm I need to pay for more boutique ammo that's another factor. Reloading is always an option, but with kids my time is limited.

I do think it's more popular and I can see the appeal, but it's more work than I'm looking for personally.

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Old October 14, 2019, 08:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bamaranger View Post
I'm not sure what qualifies as a "new" 10mm pistol but what about.......
-low end price: RIA 10mm/1911 in several models
-mid range price: Glock G40 in two versions (I think), Remington and Ruger
1911's, including some 6" versions
-top end: Kimber Target 6"

I'm sure I'm missing some, add your own to the list. Ruger even introduced a REVOLVER in 10mm . That is a far cry from when Colt and Glock were the only handguns in 10mm still in production.
A couple more, Springfield has the 10mm XD-M and S&W brought back the 610 this year. And the number of carbines available is a huge jump.

Not new, but EAA and IFG carry the Tanfoglios with the multiple 10mm options. Sig has at least one. 1911 options galore.


Options are increasing.
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Old October 14, 2019, 08:19 AM   #36
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9/40/45/38/357/44 What in the world is a 10mm going to give you that you "need" or conceivably want in a handgun but don't already have?
The 10MM is ballistically similar to the .357 in terms of energy over the entire gambit of loads. I'm not going with the cherry picked ".41 magnum" nonsense that compares the hottest 10MM to the lightest .41.

However the G29 gives 11 shots in a package that is lighter than the SP101 and is FAR more manageable in recoil.

The G20 ups this to 15 rounds and is still lighter and more manageable than the larger .357 revolvers.

Now I own both .357 revolvers and 10MMs. I would ask the question differently in that if you already have a 10MM why would you want a .357? Or if you already have a 10MM why would you want a .40? Or if you already have a 10MM why would you want a .45?
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Old October 14, 2019, 08:27 AM   #37
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I had not considered a 10mm until I was offered to try one at my gun club. Gun clubs cost you so much indirect money when you "try" other members interesting firearms !! BAD BAD BAD ! (**see explanation #'s 1-8 below**)

Anyway, I was shooting my FNX45T supressed which is a unique firearm that always draws inquisitive members . I generally decline to shoot other members firearms, but a member offered to let me try his Colt Delta Elite 10mm. We were shooting at our Action Bay that uses IDPA type steel, and a dueling tree. I was curious about his 10mm so I certainly agreed. I was SO impressed with the great shootability of the 10mm, I was expecting a pretty hard hitting recoil, but yes it packed some elevated recoil, but no where near what I was expecting. Let me tell you, i've shot a lot of calibers at our dueling tree and that 10mm absolutely slammed those dueling tree paddles with authority ! Slammed the paddles equally or even harder than my Ruger GP100 357 mag. 3 weeks later, after much research and watching vids I came home with a new Kimber Target II long slide 10mm . Could not be happier. I was already deeply vested into loading .40 S&W for the wife's G22 , so the transition to 10mm reloading was respectively a low cost investment. My 10mm fills a nice niche within my handguns. Zero regrets in purchasing.

On a side note my range buddy whom lent me his 10mm tried my FNX45T supressed and was also totally admiring of how smooth the FNX shot. So happy he was going to inquire about purchasing one. "The grass is always greener in the other shooter's hands" LOL

Here's my painfully expensively list of gun club "borrowed" firearms that I ended up falling in love with and had to purchase :

1) M1 Garand
2) 460 S&W mag XVR
3) 9mm Uzi
4) 1885 Trapdoor
5) 1858 Rem Army BP cap and ball
6) 1874 Sharp's 45-70 BP
7) 1903a4 Rock Ridge repro
8) Kimber 10mm Target II
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Old October 14, 2019, 09:17 AM   #38
Forte S+W
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers
Walmart dumping handgun ammo is something I was hoping this would start, people getting out of the 9/40/45/38/357 bubble, but I get the feeling those people will just find a local sporting good store like academy, dunham's, etc. and buy there.

I gotta believe most of the people who have never bought ammo online are old people in their 70s/80s and they're not going to change their ways, nor buy any new guns in calibers they don't already have.
I only ever bought ammo from Wal-Mart once and it was such an unpleasant experience that I never bothered again. I was already there for something else, decided to grab some .38 Special while I was there, but what should have been a simple, easy transaction was rendered a baffling ordeal which took upwards of 15 minutes because they had all of their ammo locked inside of a glass case that I had to get a manager to unlock because nobody else had the keys to it, and then they seriously carded me for it.

Similarly, I only bought ammo online once. It was from Bud's Gunshop last November, they charged an arm and a leg for shipping and it took a good 3 weeks to arrive at my door. Granted that was just one website and it was during the holiday season, but it just left a bad taste in my mouth. I'd rather just buy ammo from my LGS, it's much cheaper and I'm supporting a local business in a world dominated by conglomerates.

Oh, and for the record, I'm 33 years old.
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Old October 14, 2019, 12:45 PM   #39
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You people that complain about ammo shipping prices... find online stores that offer free shipping over $50 or $99 or some other offer. I've bought ammo from Brownell's, Midway, and Sportsmansguide for years and have never paid for shipping.

The key is buy more ammo to offset the cost. If all you buy is one box of 20 or 50 rounds and you're paying $10 for shipping, yeah, that's a good way to blow money quick and it's for small quantities of ammo that I hate Walmart is dropping most ammo sales.
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Old October 14, 2019, 01:12 PM   #40
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You people that complain about ammo shipping prices... find online stores that offer free shipping over $50 or $99 or some other offer. I've bought ammo from Brownell's, Midway, and Sportsmansguide for years and have never paid for shipping.

The key is buy more ammo to offset the cost. If all you buy is one box of 20 or 50 rounds and you're paying $10 for shipping, yeah, that's a good way to blow money quick and it's for small quantities of ammo that I hate Walmart is dropping most ammo sales.
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Others do as well--Midsouth, Precision reloading etc.
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Old October 14, 2019, 11:02 PM   #41
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By the way, there's no need to go boutique or reload to get 10mm ammo that's much hotter than .40S&W.

Hornady & Federal both have 180gr loadings spec'ed for 1275fps. Federal states that's out of a 5" tube.

Winchester has a 180gr loading they claim is 1240fps at the muzzle.

Federal has a 200gr loading that runs 1130fps out of a 5" bbl.
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:11 AM   #42
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Sig also makes nice 10mm "off the shelf" ammo. I generally aim for energy of around 750 ftlbs (6" or better tube) in the handloads I do, but they tend to be warmer than off-the-shelf stuff (except for the likes of BB, doubletap and underwood).
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
By the way, there's no need to go boutique or reload to get 10mm ammo that's much hotter than .40S&W.

Hornady & Federal both have 180gr loadings spec'ed for 1275fps. Federal states that's out of a 5" tube.

Winchester has a 180gr loading they claim is 1240fps at the muzzle.

Federal has a 200gr loading that runs 1130fps out of a 5" bbl.
The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.

The Hornady XTP 10mm is fast, but that XTP bullet is questionable if pushed too fast. Out of a 6 inch barrel, I can see those bullets falling apart and out of a Glock 20, there's a video of the 180 grain load going 1140 fps and Hornady specs velocity from a 5 inch barrel.

Still not bad, but not what it could be. The 155 grain Hornady looks excellent from any barrel length.
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:52 AM   #44
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The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.

The Hornady XTP 10mm is fast, but that XTP bullet is questionable if pushed too fast. Out of a 6 inch barrel, I can see those bullets falling apart and out of a Glock 20, there's a video of the 180 grain load going 1140 fps and Hornady specs velocity from a 5 inch barrel.

Still not bad, but not what it could be. The 155 grain Hornady looks excellent from any barrel length.
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Extreme penetrators are usually my "go to" bullets for redlined 9mm and 10mm handloads.
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Old October 15, 2019, 02:09 AM   #45
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The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.
I posted that in response to multiple comments on this thread along the lines that if you don't reload or buy from the boutique shops, 10mm ammo is not much different from/only marginally different than .40S&W.

The loads I listed may not be as hot as is possible from the caliber, but they are factory loadings offered by major manufacturers that are clearly much hotter than .40S&W ammo.
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Old October 15, 2019, 02:49 AM   #46
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My memory is a bit foggy--but I think the original specs for the Bren Ten were in the neighborhood of 180 grs at around 1,250 fps. Much has been said about the 40 being almost the same as the 10mm--but it's case is not designed to handle the pressures that the 10 can--nor is the weapon generally able to handle similar pressures. 400 to 500 ftlbs energy is very respectable and certainly more than adequate for conventional SD--but it's not in the same league of higher velocities and 600 to 700 ftlbs or more that are attainable with the 10.
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Old October 15, 2019, 04:15 AM   #47
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You people that complain about ammo shipping prices... find online stores that offer free shipping over $50 or $99 or some other offer. I've bought ammo from Brownell's, Midway, and Sportsmansguide for years and have never paid for shipping.
Of course not. Those are three of the most expensive ammo sellers online. They build their cost directly in to the product (except for SG, which also builds it in to their "membership"). With the rare exceptions of closeout high end ammo I have never found any ammo in their online stores cheaper there than other places. Midway and Brownells are nice though because they carry a lot of ammo you can't find other places in rare calibers.
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Old October 15, 2019, 04:44 AM   #48
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I get most of my stuff from Midway when I can--I usually receive it within a few days of ordering. Also, they have never failed to take back and fully refund anything I got that was defective, usually no questions asked--or very few--including some very high-end pricey items. It does pay, however, to batch order lots of stuff when ordering hazmat and ammo. Midway tends to pack a little better too.
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Old October 15, 2019, 07:02 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
I posted that in response to multiple comments on this thread along the lines that if you don't reload or buy from the boutique shops, 10mm ammo is not much different from/only marginally different than .40S&W.

The loads I listed may not be as hot as is possible from the caliber, but they are factory loadings offered by major manufacturers that are clearly much hotter than .40S&W ammo.
can you point me to independent chrono data for those loads? I know companies seem to exaggerate their box flap velocities from time to time. I never got that high with the big 3-4 from my 5" Delta Elite or G20, though those guns did produce box flap velocities from Double Tap about 6 years ago. BTW I've read that now DT is even watering down their stuff though not as bad as the big 3-4.
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Old October 15, 2019, 07:06 AM   #50
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Its simple. Most of us aren't worried about being attacked by roaming gangs of hooligan bears.
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