Why won't my 9mm case fit in the bullet checker?

[HiBC]

I've been informed by Unclenick my concerns about a carbide die contacting the shellholder may be "Old School" correct,but with modern dies,its generally a non issue. OK. Unclenick is certainly credible.

But because I'm Old School,consider this.as far as a carbide die is concerned,its a straight walled case. We are not in the least concerned about a shoulder bump as we would be with a bottleneck rifle case.
Ordinarily,with even centerfire high pressure rifle cases,case head expansion of .001 is regarded as a high pressure sign,and primers start getting loose.

So,in a theoretical sense,the fact a carbide sizer does not size the .125 for the deck height of the shell holder,and it does not size the length of the lead in chamfer on he carbide ring,...I get that . Maybe,at most,the rear .200 in (probably more like ,187) of the cartridge case
Does not get sized down. Do we agree? Rim,extractor groove,plus the solid portion of the case head.mostly.
If we start with a Zig Zag cigarettes' rolling paper at aprox .001 thickness,on up to more common paper at .002 or .003 in thick,as a feeler gage when running a carbide die down to contact the shellholder,what could he drawback be?
As far as taking the stress off the die,a ,001 ZigZag is as good as a flat washer.
"Any" is enough. What will be gained by going .001 deeper?Or .003 deeper?
Given he choice,if it costs nothing,why not set up the die with a slip of paper?
It decreases stress on equipment
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JB. You get to work out your own process. Dirt,range grit,primer pocket residue, can rapidly wear your dies,and generally gunk up the smooth operation of your progressive press.

You may do things differently,but if I may suggest,from your bulk nasty range brass,run it first through a universal decap die. Lee sells one cheap.
They don't rub on the case.so the die isn't getting worn.

Some 9mm has crimped primers. Military ammo. You have not started priming cases yet. You can feel crimped primers decapping them. They are harder. They are also harder on decapping pins and spindles. Bend your spindle or pin of an RCBS or Redding die,you need replacement parts.The Lee die is tough,and you can get parts up front.

Anyway,primers out, your tumbler media has access to the pockets.

Now,you can tumble clean your brass. Cleaning processes have evolved some. Many folks are using pins,lemon shine,dish soap,etc. You can get to that over time. For now,dry media like corn cob,walnut hulls,etc will do.

You don;t need polished and shiny. You do need grit free.

If you find crimped primers,set them aside. Thats a whole new thread!! And more tools. They just won't prime for you,and will be a nightmare in your progressive.You can fix and use them.Later.

So now you can start your process with clean,sorted,decapped and non-crimped primer pockets.

A little spray lube takes load off your equiptment.Pins,links,etc. Why not? Not a lot. Spritz and shake it in the bin. Let it dry 20 minutes or so.

If you have room,a cheep single stage press as a supplement is good for the decapping routine. You don't have to do that in your progressive. A supplemental single stage is useful with a progressive press.

And you might use it with an RCBS primer crimp removal tool. There are other options, like a Dillon Primer Pocket Swage (over $100)but the RCBS is among the more affordable.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by HiBC

A ittle spray lube takes load off your equiptment. Why not? Not a lot. Spritz and shake it in the bin. Let it dry 20 minutes or so.

If he is using Hornady One-Shot aerosol (which I think he is, since he mentioned "spraying" it), there's no wait for drying. By the time you put the cap back on the can and put the can on the shelf, the stuff is dry. It's a dry film lubricant -- completely non-messy, and no need to wipe it off after loading. I've been using it for years on straight-wall handgun loads, and I wouldn't be without it.

[HiBC]

Cool. I have not used the Hornady.

Most spray sizing lubes are lanolin suspended in alcohol carrier.

Many folks have learned the hard way that the lube does not work so well before the carrier fully evaporates.

In a non-carbide die,they get rewarded with a case stuck in the die,and the rim ripped off the case. Its a lot like forgetting to lube a case .Thats a stoppage,too!

What we call a "stoppage" Bent,broken decapping pins and /or spindles are also "stoppages" Then you have to find or order parts. Some of us pre-order spare decapping pins and spindles. We already learned about stoppages.

[HiBC]

jb....You toucher on another subject . Once again...you need a couple of loading manuals for the broad subject of reloading.

Okay, so back to my original question on the bullet checker. Now that it's actually working (imagine that!)... I'm checking this and seeing that the bullet may fall a tad below or even with the top of the bullet checker. It's such a small difference, probably the thickness of a fingernail. So when I called SPEER to get the COL it was 1.135". I asked him about tolerance. He said "You can go a little longer, but never shorter." So, I've been careful not to allow it to go below. Any danger here? I gotta tell ya... I think I need to invent a way to measure COL other than a lousy micrometer would make it a lot easier to measure these things.

There is some important stuff here. Suppose you take 4 different 147 gr 9mm bullets. One a round nose hardball,one a flat point truncated cone,a big cavity hollowpoint,and an average hollowpoint.
All 147 gr.

Now,measure the lengths of the bullets,tip to base. They will be different. Thats point one.

One aspect of carridge overall length is mechanical. What will fit in the magazine? What will feed smoothly up the ramp into the chamber?
Bullet tip,or ogive shapes vary,and so cartridge overall lengths may vary.

But there is another important length. It has to do with pressures. Actually with the internal volume of the combustion chamber.

When the primer fires,that volume influences the heat and pressure that ignites the powder,and then how much room there is for the powder gas to expand. In other words,the internal volume has an effect on pressure.

The internal volume is controlled by the bullet's base. You can measure the length of the cartridge over the bullet's tip,but for pressure purposes,from there,by way of the bullet length,you establish where the bullet base is.

The bullet base determines combustion chamber volume. Thats why your tech told you "Never shorter" And thats one reason why not just any 147 gr bullet will do for a given data set.

AND,nothing personal with AB, He may have a point that the niche market of bullseye shooters may use the crimp die to just iron out the flare,the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.
A general rule of thumb:

Bullet diameter plus (two times neck thickness) would give you a number for zero crimp. We want .002 per side,or .004 total crimp.

So Bullet dia + two times neck thickness ,then minus .004 will give you a diameter at the case mouth you can set your taper crimp to deliver.

Deep seating a handgun bullet,whether by feeding setback or in the press with the seater die can significantly increase pressure.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by HiBC

AND,nothing personal with AB, He may have a point that the niche market of bullseye shooters may use the crimp die to just iron out the flare,the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.

As it happens, one of my friends over on the M1911.org forum is a bullseye shooter, but he's also a data and measurement freak. He has done extensive research on bullet setback, and what his experiments have shown is that he gets the least bullet setback when the "crimp" is only sufficient to remove the flare. He has posted the results of his setback testing, and they clearly show that adding any crimp after bullet seating actually works against the inherent bullet retention provided by the friction between the case wall and the bullet base.

In fact, as a result of these experiments, he has gone so far as to take Lee factory crimp dies and cut the carbide resizing ring out of them. For semi-autos, there should be no "crimp," there should only be "flare removal." Look at factory loaded ammunition. Get a magnifying glass and a good straightedge, and see if there's any flare at the case mouth. I think you'll find that the answer is no.

... the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.

Whose recommended spec is this, and where is it published? I have never seen anything to support or even suggests this.

[Unclenick]

I'll have to look at the experiment. I expect the issue is the crimp pulling the sides of the case away from the bullet, which has been noted in over-crimping revolver cartridges where the crimp is needed to prevent the bullet creeping forward out of the cases under recoil (inertial bullet pulling). However, in the revolver, the roll crimp in a groove is more important as there is no setback force. So even in the middle good crimp image below, we may see the tension from stretching the neck with the bullet reduced, if not actually pulling away. The Redding Profile Crimp dies are supposed to solve this in revolvers. You can get one for 45 Auto Rim and 45 Auto to be loaded into moon clips for revolvers, and I suppose that could be tried, gently, to achieve nominal case mouth diameter on 45 Auto for a self-loader.



There is another way to go with soft lead bullets, and that is to seat them out so the cartridge headspaces on the bullet instead of the rim, and then to roll crimp so it bites into the bullet. A lot of bull's-eye target shooters from the '50s and '60s were doing this and you can find it in old publications. They swore it produced the best accuracy. It wouldn't be great for case life in any auto cartridge, but it would give good start pressure and positively prevent setback if the bite into the bullet is adequate. That profile crimp die will do it with 45 Auto, but they don't make one for 9mm for the OP's purposes.

[Aguila Blanca]

Here's one discussion thread that includes some posts by niemi24s. He appears in numerous other threads about reloading in the Ammo & Reloading area of the M1911.org forum.

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.p...etback-in-case

In this discussion he talks more about his testing of bullet setback in factory ammo. In others, he has gone into more detail about how he has determined that the best bullet retention comes from using the minimum flare possible, and then doing as little as possible to the case after seating the bullet.

[HiBC]

I did some research on the 9mm taper crimping.

According to what is currently out there on the web, I have to shrug and agree with AB's point there is more advice to only taper crimp enough to remove the bell.
So,I must concede AB is not wrong.

However,I began reloading about 50 years ago. Studied quite a lot. Lots of loading manuals,tons of American Rifleman,subscribed to Handloader Mag,
And along the way,standad doctrine was a light taper crimp,and load manuals often included a "crimp to" dimension.
I even came across a link to a post Unclenick here at TFL authored about setting a taper crimp die for 45 ACP to bite into the bullet slightly to help prevent setback and increase in pressure.
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324039&page=2

post #38

I'll agree overcrimping bulges the brass and reduces neck tension.

I just watched a Hornady official factory youtube vid on setting up the Hornady Micro taper crimp die for 9mm. The vid showed .001 to .002 crimp good. I'd guess Hornady knows at least as much about it as the guy on the 1911 forum.

I think we agree over crimping is not good.

I think zero crimp vs light crimp is much ado about nothing.

Both systems work. Decades of ammo that worked fine. I was not doing it wrong, and I followed the published recomendations of the time.

Besides,the 1911's I build feed dropping the slide on empty brass from the magazine. Not a lot of setback issues that way.

[jetblueshooter]

Thanks LE-28. Based on your post, I submitted a request with RCBS and explained everything and my setup to see what they say. There isn't anything blocking the ram that I can tell, and the lever goes all the way down. It is strange, one would think that these dies would be setup to work without running low on threads in a press like the Hornaday AP.

[LE-28]

This is what my RCBS 9mm resizing die looks like, set up for my Hornady AP.
You can see the thread on the die is pretty well flush with the top of the nut.
I wonder if you have a problem with the hub on your press being to loose.
It will allow the shell plate to tilt and take away from the height of the die.

Move your shell plate forward and backwards to see if you can detect any play in the hub.

I hope the pic I attached is here, I haven't put a pic on here for quite some time.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JBS

It is strange, one would think that these dies would be setup to work without running low on threads in a press like the Hornaday AP.

Why? RCBS doesn't make Hornady presses.

Did you try putting the lock ring on the underside of the press, as I suggested a couple of days ago?

[Unclenick]

If he's using the quick-change system shown in LE-28's photo, I don't think that'll be an option.

[Aguila Blanca]

If he's using the quick-change system shown in LE-28's photo, I don't think that'll be an option.

It would negate the quick change feature, for sure, but I'm pretty certain the friend who told me that's what he did was using a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP press.

[HiBC]

And putting the lock nut underneath presents other problems apparent to those with toolmaker background.
The underside of the press is likely not machined square to the 7/8-14 threads.
(OK,maybe not an issue with Lock-N-Load)

Under load,the surfaces of the 7/8 -14 die threads will be pushed UP against the press 7//8-14 threads.Its a "V" on "V" situation with the thread geometry.
The die can find very good alignment. The lock ring from above compliments the arrangement,especally if there is an O-ring.

A lock ring from below conflicts with the die settling in the press. It pre loads the thread clearance opposite where it will be when the die is under working load.
In the case of a press with an unfinished lower cast surface,the lockring below will bear on an uneven surface,tipping the die out of square within its clearance

[Bottom Gun]

As it happens, one of my friends over on the M1911.org forum is a bullseye shooter, but he's also a data and measurement freak. He has done extensive research on bullet setback, and what his experiments have shown is that he gets the least bullet setback when the "crimp" is only sufficient to remove the flare. He has posted the results of his setback testing, and they clearly show that adding any crimp after bullet seating actually works against the inherent bullet retention provided by the friction between the case wall and the bullet base.

That was my experience loading .357 Sig. I had better retention with no crimp. I didn't flare the case mouth either. I found a light chamfer of the case mouth will get the bullet started properly and provide the best bullet retention.

[jetinteriorguy]

Even though I’d been loading straight wall ammo for over 30 years when I first started loading 9mm about ten years ago it drove me nuts. Even though it seemed like I had a lot of issues, it really only turned out to be a simple case of not seating bullets deep enough due to a short throat in my M&P. But I did learn another lesson in the process and that was to use an undersized resizing die. Once I started seating bullets to plunk reliably instead of blindly following the SAAMI oal guide and used the undersize die I’ve never had another reliability issue. Of course after determining proper seating depth with dummy rounds I would then work up the load from the beginning. Revolvers are so simple and 9mm was a real learning curve, but once mastered loading 9mm is also pretty simple too. I do use the Lee FCD but I use a very light crimp with good success.

[langenc]

Use the guns barrel for a cartridge checker. A good sized round should go 'plunk' when dropped into the chamber or a Wilson case gage.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by langenc

A good sized round should go 'plunk' when dropped into the chamber or a Wilson case gage.

Nope. From the Wilson web site:

https://lewilson.com/case-gage

• The "Wilson Case Gage" A one piece gage that will check overall length and indicate min/max case length
• Measures min/max Headspace. Does not measure body diameters
• This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and case trimming

Lyman makes a loaded cartridge gauge. So does EGW. Wilson does, too ... but it's not called a Case Gage.

[RC20]

B

e aware that a round that doesn't fit in somebody's "checker" could fit in your barrel just fine.

Ultimately its your gun barrel that is the final "check". If your rounds work in that, the rest doesn't matter, or matter much...

Yea I got a Wilson for 9mm, most did not pass, some brands of cases did.

They all fit in the chamber of the pistol just fine.

[HiBC]

I hope the central point of post #29 did not get lost to the crimp discussion.

Lengths can vary on bullets of similar weight .

The part of LOA most folks think of is the one you can see. It matters for fitting the magazine,feeding,etc.

The length that matters regarding pressure,you can't see.Or measure directly.

Its the depth the bullet base is seated to. Reducing combustion chamber volume by seating the bullet base deeper can significantly increase pressure.

Now,another tidbit of info,for no extra charge.

I did not see where you answered if your pistol s a Glock.I've never owned a Glock.I'm not a Glock expert.

At least some Glocks have polygonal rifling. My understanding is cast bullets are not suitable for polygon barrels.They lead badly. Then sometimes shooting jacketed bullets through the leaded barrel spikes pressures.

Good stuff to clutter your mind