Remington Model 8 Fail to Feed

[johnm1]

I hope that's a correct title. Background. Model 8 in 35 Rem, 1926 manufacture. I bought it a couple of months ago and have only had it out twice. Nice rifle, nice shape. Price was low. Paid $329.00. May know why now.

Rifle chambers normally most of the time but sometimes gets stuck about 1" short of chambering a round. Experienced this the first time I shot the rifle so I took the bolt apart to look for missing or damaged parts. I didn't find any, but now understand the principle of how the bolt works. I also may not recognize a damaged part. I have fired 4 rounds without failure at times, so the problem is intermittent. Yesterday I was loading a 5th in the chamber by hand and both times it failed, it failed after the second round fired. That would have been the first round loaded in the magazine.

See the first photo taken as the rifle was after the failure. EDIT: The round partially in the chamber in the first photograph is the next live round. The fired round was extracted/ejected normally. I was able to remove all of the rounds by pulling the bolt back to the locked position. But, the condition, whatever it was, was not resolved and the bolt still stopped in that same position. See the second photograph.

Just by fiddling around, opening the bolt to bolt lock and rotating the rifle, the condition cleared itself. I have no idea what changed. My initial suspicion were the pins that rotate the bolt to the lock/unlock position. But I really have no basis for that other than the condition appeared to clear by rotating the rifle. I know the pins have some in/out movement in their holes.

The third photograph shows the bolt held back by my hand after the condition cleared. But if I let the bolt go in the third picture it would close normally. I don't see any difference between when the bolt had the issue and when it did not. I'm sure there is not enough information right now to diagnose the problem. I'm just hoping to figure a way to replicate the problem again and maybe things to look for. I'm searching for a rod so I can cycle the action by pushing the barrel back instead of operating it with the bolt handle. The condition has only occurred while firing the rifle. I have never been able to replicate it by operating the bolt by hand.

[4V50 Gary]

Clean or polish the chamber.

[tangolima]

Looks like another case of failure to extract. The extractor is most likely the cause. A competent smith should be able to correct that.

BTW, it is a interesting rifle with long recoil action, similar to A5 shotgun. I would like to have one myself.

-TL

[johnm1]

The case that is seen in the first photo, which shows the condition as it was after the failure, is the next live round. The fired round was extracted/ejected. The problem occurred while trying to load the next round when the bolt stopped as shown in the first photo. I would have expected the next live round to be under the extractor, but I don't know for sure that is correct. Plus, I don't know how much force was applied when the bolt came to a stop short of the chamber.

Technical writing is difficult at best. So sorry if I wasn't clear.

[tangolima]

My bad. I thought the top brass was the empty.

In the 1st picture, the bolt is not in contact with the top round. Is it the exact position of everything when misfeed happened?

-TL

[johnm1]

I wasn't very clear. I edited my first post to clarify.

Keep in mind that after I removed the round from the chamber and the rounds from the magazine the bolt stopped at the same spot on its travel forward. So the rounds appear to not have anything to do with the bolt stopping an inch short.

[johnm1]

Sorry, I didn't answer your question. The first photo is as it was after the misfeed.

[HiBC]

First,I don't have the answer.
In the first two pictures,the bolt is not in contact with the fresh cartridge being fed into the chamber.
While a clean chamber is nice,think about it.The bolt is held up,and its not in contact with the cartridge.I don't think its a chamber issue.

These are fairly complex rifles.Not so much in principle of operation,but there are little levers and doohickeys assembled into the sides of the receiver,the recoil system extends back into the buttstock similar to an FAL,with a wood spring follower,the barrel has long travel in the shroud,with springs and bushings,etc. Its hard saying the amount of crud or rust or lack of lube could be going on,as there are reciprocating parts from the muzzle into the buttstock.
The model 8 has been around for 100 years.
We don't know what story of A)Lack of maintenance,or B) Incompetence or C) Just getting old is going on.

The Remington Model 8/81 society has online reference manual material.E-bay offers reprints of shop and tech manuals.and some parts.You-yube offers videos on these rifles.
To not goober them up,thereare a few special tools any smith can make.

Without altering anything,I suggest a knowledgable,competent person with references,tools,and experience should do a teardown,inspection,clean,lube,and re-assembly.

I do NOT recommend a person without a shop manual attempt it.

http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/

[johnm1]

All good points HiBC,

My mind wants to noodle it out. I have some limited skills and no special tools. So the barrel has not been disassembled and won't be. Although the receiver is complicated, it was not rocket surgery. We can exclude dirt/crud in the receiver. I have disassembled/reassembled the receiver/bolt and it is clean. The rifle was missing some minor pieces when I got it. The action spring was missing the wood plug though it did have the correct follower. It was also missing the hammer roll, a small roller on the base of the hammer that allows the hammer spring to act on the hammer smoothly. Those were replaced in the tear down.

I was looking for obviously broken or worn parts as well as missing parts during the takedown. Now there is no way for me to look at a piece and determine that it is 0.006" short/worn. Not sure any gunsmith today could either.

I probably left a light film of oil on the parts as I reassembled the the receiver/bolt. That is what I normally do. I did not grease any surfaces because I wasn't sure what took grease and what didn't.

As far as function goes we can temporarily exclude the barrel assembly for now. Mostly because I don't have the ability to take it apart and reassemble it properly. But none of the symptoms appear to be related to the function of the barrel assembly. Could the barrel assembly be gunked up enough to not provide enough force on the return trip. That's possible, but I don't think likely. And for now I can't do anything about it.

What I think we know:
The barrel/bolt recoils properly
The bolt unlocks properly - maybe not, but it appears to
The barrel releases from the bolt and travels forward to a point
The bolt does not reach the point in its forward travel to lock the bolt

The action left to perform is for the bolt to continue a small distance forward to compress the bolt head on the back of the barrel, the bolt carrier to continue traveling forward Allowing the cam pins in the carrier to engage the helical cut outs in the carrier and twisting the bolt head engaging the locking lugs in the rear of the barrel.

When I inspected the cam pins I was a bit confused on their function/fit. I had expected them to fill the holes in the carrier so the outside was flush with the carrier surface. But they are shorter than the hole is deep. So they can move in/out. Of course the receiver body retains them in place. I have installed the cam pins with the beveled edge facing the center of the bolt. That was the current wisdom of the internet. Maybe the beveled edge should face out so if the cam pin is all the way out it won't catch on the inside face of the receiver.

I had to order some parts for a Winchester 1907 last night so for $5 I ordered 2 replacement cam pins. Can't hurt. My next test will be with the cam pins reversed with the beveled edge facing the receiver. And. Think I'll apply a light film of grease to the helical raceways in the bolt carrier so the cam pins have more than light oil for lubrication.

Remember, the condition clears itself by rotating the gun. The cam pins are the only thing I can think of that has the freedom to move by rotating the rifle. Other parts may and I may be barking up the wrong tree.

If anyone has any thoughts I'm open for suggestions.

[HiBC]

Use that link I provide to get to the Rem Model 8/81 Society page.It will lead you to a forum,videos,manuals,and experienced folks

That it was missing pieces suggests that during its 91 years,it was taken apart by someone who lost parts and put it back together...not necessarily correctly.

My point is,you can't assume anything is right when it comes apart.

I do wish you good luck. I've found parts on e-bay.Search Remington model 8.

[johnm1]

HiBC,

That is the site I have used for a lot of my inherited knowledge. That and the videos on the internet that showed the disassembly of the receiver/bolt.

Odd, I'm a member from a long time ago, but when I try to log in it tells me my username is 'inactive'. I've sent them an e-mail a couple of times, but haven't received a response.

[johnm1]

For what it's worth, here are two other websites I have used to gain some knowledge on the Model 8:

Great photos on this one

https://www.flickr.com/photos/buster...71360342/page2

Very good descriptions of how the Model 8 works



Im kind of hosed logging in to the Grea Model 8 board until an admin replies to my e mail. I tried to create another user name but it has to use a unique e mail address and won't let me.

By the way, thanks for the comments so far.

[4V50 Gary]

Underfunction. The action does not have sufficient energy such that it fails to perform as designed. Solution? Clean it. Remove burrs. Polish the chamber.

Hyper-function. The action works faster than it was designed to perform. Worn springs? Worn parts?

[tango1niner]

lubricate well...

[HiBC]

All good thinking.
For myself, given the unknowns of a 92 yr old gun,with references,I'd suggest a full teardown. The bushing wrench is not complex,its simply a wrench that fits so the slot does not get goobered.As I recall,reassembly against the springs in the shroud is entertaining and might take three hands.
There is major motion going on inside the shroud.I suggest you pursue getting the tools.If you can't make them,I think we are talking about $30 for the wrench.

Taken down as far as practical,the parts can be individually inventoried against the part list,so you have them all,cleaned,and inspected.

Unless there is an obvious reason,battering,galling,corrosion,etc,I'd assume a 92 year old gun does not need metal removal.
Who knows?You may be missing another piece or something may be mis-assembled.
I'd bet with teardown,clean,lube,and proper re-assembly it will run.

Did I notice it may have been a mag lip holding the bolt?Maybe the camera angle is fooling me,but its pic #2. I have an 81. Mine,I can clearly see the bolt carrier slot and clearance to clear the mag lip.
I don't care to dig too deep right now,but those feed lips are separate parts.( "magazine spring" )Might you have one flopping around?


FWIW,in pic #1,with the bolt out of battery,drawn back,that locking lug should be fully hidden by the extractor. The lug should be at full 12 oclock.

That is a matter of serious concern.If the bolt is not positively controlled in its correct position,some form of out of battery firing may occur. That's a dangerous gun wrecking situation.

I would not shoot it again until this is resolved.

[johnm1]

HiBC

I think you found it. Below are two pictures. The first picture is A copy of picture #2 from my first post. This picture shows the bolt in the jammed condition with the live rounds removed. The second is a picture taken just a few minutes ago while The jamb condition does not exist. Your observation about the feed lip was spot on. The feed lip is considerably higher in the first photo and not able to enter the cut out in the bottom of the bolt. You can actually see the top of the cutout in the bolt below the top of the feed lip.

Two more observations not in the photo. The back of the feed lip does have damage from battering. And the feed lip was found just a minute ago outside of the locating hole in the side of the magazine. Basically the feed lip was free floating.

[HiBC]

I'm not sure its for the right cartridge,it might be a 32 Rem,etc.But I think there is a spring on e-bay.
Try Numrich,too.
Good luck,happy to be of help.
Do make very sure there is not a separate problem with the bolt carrier,cam,etc. Indexing the bolt is critical.

[johnm1]

Yeah. I'm going to noodle that part out as well. I have some cam pins on the way. Problem is they might be 109 years old and in worse shape.

My initial thought was that one of the cam pins was causing the problem. I don't think it had anything to do with the jamb now. But I notice that the locking lugs can move slightly from the 12 o'clock position and I still get lock up. This is where 91 years of use may come into play.

Thanks again for you help.

[johnm1]

I test fired the rifle this weekend and confirmed the magazine side spring was the issue. As long as the side spring was in place the rifle functioned normally. I have another thread on the position of the locking lugs so I won't delve into that here.

This rifle was manufactured with a single side spring. I have seen pictures of rifles with 1, 2, or no side springs. But I cannot tell how the side springs are held in place. The magazine has a relatively largish hole in it and the side spring has a much smaller hole in it. I had assumed that the smallish hole in the side spring has a small protrusion (bump) that fit into the hole in the magazine for positioning. But the side spring was flat at the hole. So, what keeps the side spring in place? Spring tension? Or am I missing the positioning bump on the side spring.

FYI - I can move the side spring with minimal pressure from my finger/thumb currently.

Now it's possible that I have the wrong side spring. Recall the rifle had some missing minor pieces. So it's possible whoever assembled the rifle last jut put in what was available. I can't find a description of when side springs changed nor a description of how they are held in place.

I'm hoping someone here knows how the side spring is held in position.