Do I need a faster-burning powder?

ScottRiqui · January 27, 2010, 10:50 PM

So far, I've tried Unique and Power Pistol for my .40 S&W (Springfield EMP with a 3" barrel). I like the Power Pistol (seems a lot cleaner than the Unique), but it gives a rather large, bright muzzle flash, which leads me to believe not all of the powder is burning by the time it leaves the barrel.

Is there a list out there that ranks powder by burning speed, or if not, does anyone know of a good powder for a short-barreled .40?

Thanks,
Scott

PCJim · January 27, 2010, 11:39 PM

Scott, if you perform a Google search for "powder burn rate chart", you'll find numerous references.

As for 40S&W powder, I just began reloading that caliber myself having stayed away from it for years. I have been using W231 very successfully, but will try some others to determine which ones I feel are best for my loads.

ScottRiqui · January 27, 2010, 11:56 PM

Thanks for the tip on the burn rate chart. Also, let me know what you think of the 231 - that was going to be the next powder I try.

**Mike Irwin** · January 28, 2010, 12:49 AM

Muzzle flash isn't all unburned powder. In fact, it's often not unburned powder at all, but superheated gases forming plasma at the muzzle.

Uncle Buck · January 28, 2010, 07:33 AM

Mike, Thanks for that info. All the reloaders I know around here, or people that shoot reloads (eight if my counting is correct) have always told me that it was unburnt powder that caused this.

I remember as a kid when we shot black powder sometimes we would lay a white sheet (without moms knowledge) on the ground in front of what we shot and you could find unburnt powder on it, or burn marks. This was when we put just a wee bit too much powder in it. Of course now I know there is a difference between black powder and the stuff I use now-a-days.

I always assumed it was unburnt powder that caused the long muzzle flash and reduced my loads.

Jim243 · January 28, 2010, 07:56 AM

Yes there are powder burn charts at most powder mfg sites, I am not sure how helpfull they are since they only list the order of the powder and not really any information on the burn rate.

I stopped using Power Pistol for my 40s because it SEEMS to be a slower burning powder and gives a real snappy recoil on my 3 inch PT140. Went back to W231 powder at the starting load for 155 JHP bullets and seems to work out real well, only thing I will load for my 3 inch 40 now. It's going to depend on the recoil spring in your gun as to how much powder to use, but it does take less powder to push the bullet out of a 3 inch that a 4 inch barrel. But you will lose range and distance with less powder. But then again you will lose range and distance with a 2 or 3 inch barrel over a 4 or 5 inch barrel anyways. If the recoil is manageable then leave your load alone, most short barrel pistols and revolvers are going to throw a orange flame out the front anyways, just the nature of the beast. If recoil is the issure than try the starting load from your book.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · January 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

Most people assume that it is unburned powder, because, like you, they often find unburned powder in the gun or on the ground.

It's a logical assumption to make, and it MIGHT well be the case that burning powder is at least partially to blame.

Also, most people tend to not understand plasma, thinking that it can only form at extremely high temperatures and pressures, such as in the sun. Fact is, plasmas can be formed at very low pressures and temperatures (relatively).

In fact, most of us produce plasma every day and make it work for us by simply turning on a fluorescent lightbulb.

dfe2240 · January 28, 2010, 10:34 AM

I've used Bullseye, Unique and Longshot in my .40 cal reloads for my Glock 22 (4.5" barrel). FWIW, I noticed significantly more muzzle flash with Unique than I did with either Bullseye (faster burning) or Longshot (slower burning).

PCJim · January 28, 2010, 03:10 PM

I loaded three sets of 10 rounds using W231 beneath some 180gr XTP bullets when I was developing my first loads for a newly acquired P229. They all shot well, however the Chrony indicated the heavier charge had a more consistant velocity (sd ~9.xx). Accuracy was acceptable for all three sets.

I did load another 80 rounds which my son burned thru just the other day. He simply said that he loved the gun - I suppose that also indicates that the ammo worked well.

dwhite · January 28, 2010, 05:01 PM

Hodgdon Universal does not flash like Power Pistol and is much cleaner than Unique. Universal covers about the same load range as Unique.

All the Best,
D. White

chunk · January 28, 2010, 07:23 PM

AA # 5 or AA # 7 or vhitavouri n-350 or n-340 work well for .40 s&w imo

MR 8x57js · February 16, 2010, 09:22 PM

ScottRiqui
What bullet weight are you useing? in the 3 inch barrel i would use a 135 Gr that will give you less recoil. the biggest bullet i would use is a 150 Grainer. the higher you go up in bullet weight the slower the powder your going to need to get it out the barrel thus incressing the recoil,thus makeing a fellow up shot take longer.

Gbro · February 16, 2010, 09:46 PM

Mike,

I was told by an old friend that the flash of powder in a flintlock pan is a plasma action that ignites the main charge??

ScottRiqui · February 16, 2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

What bullet weight are you useing? in the 3 inch barrel i would use a 135 Gr that will give you less recoil. the biggest bullet i would use is a 150 Grainer. the higher you go up in bullet weight the slower the powder your going to need to get it out the barrel thus incressing the recoil,thus makeing a fellow up shot take longer.

I've used both 165 gr and 135 gr with the Power Pistol. The recoil was definitely lighter with the 135 gr, but the muzzle flash was about the same. The more I shoot the loads, the less the flash is bothering me and I like Power Pistol in general, so I'll probably continue to use it until my local shop has some W231, and then I'll give that a try.

Thanks,
Scott

WESHOOT2 · February 17, 2010, 08:47 AM

I've found Power Pistol to be the ideal 40 S&W powder EXCEPT for its flash signature.

I don't care, except for certain defense applications, and then I choose a different powder (sorry, secret).
ALL other 40 S&W ammo gets loaded with Power Pistol.

(W231 works great with 200g FMJ and magnum primers in the 40, but only when held to lesser velocities; Bullseye works great under 180g non-lead bullets, but only when held to under 4.2g. Longshot never delivered on its velocity promise).

**Mike Irwin** · February 17, 2010, 10:15 AM

Gbro,

That I do not know for certain.

Brian Pfleuger · February 17, 2010, 11:08 AM

On the topic of muzzle flash.... I found this:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm

very interesting, and simple too.

RidgwayCO · February 17, 2010, 11:53 AM

+1 to Universal.

My shooting buddy bought an M&P in .40 S&W, and then decided the cost of ammo was so high that he should start reloading... My loading manuals seemed to agree that Universal was a good choice in the .40 S&W, so we tried some. After trying the starting load in the Speer #14 for 165gr jacketed bullets (he uses Montana Gold), my buddy declared it "perfect", and has never reloaded anything else for his S&W M&P.

I sort of envy him his ability to not tinker endlessly with a load...

jeffreybehr · February 17, 2010, 01:51 PM

Here's some useful muzzle-flash info.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n27380935/

According to this article, Hodgdon Universal has no muzzle flash. I use it in my .40-cal. and .45 G.A.P PD loads.

January 28, 2010, 12:49 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Muzzle flash isn't all unburned powder. In fact, it's often not unburned powder at all, but superheated gases forming plasma at the muzzle. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 28, 2010, 07:33 AM	#5
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Mike, Thanks for that info. All the reloaders I know around here, or people that shoot reloads (eight if my counting is correct) have always told me that it was unburnt powder that caused this. I remember as a kid when we shot black powder sometimes we would lay a white sheet (without moms knowledge) on the ground in front of what we shot and you could find unburnt powder on it, or burn marks. This was when we put just a wee bit too much powder in it. Of course now I know there is a difference between black powder and the stuff I use now-a-days. I always assumed it was unburnt powder that caused the long muzzle flash and reduced my loads. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

January 28, 2010, 10:02 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Most people assume that it is unburned powder, because, like you, they often find unburned powder in the gun or on the ground. It's a logical assumption to make, and it MIGHT well be the case that burning powder is at least partially to blame. Also, most people tend to not understand plasma, thinking that it can only form at extremely high temperatures and pressures, such as in the sun. Fact is, plasmas can be formed at very low pressures and temperatures (relatively). In fact, most of us produce plasma every day and make it work for us by simply turning on a fluorescent lightbulb. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 28, 2010, 05:01 PM	#10
dwhite Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: Wake County, N. Carolina Posts: 379	H. Universal Hodgdon Universal does not flash like Power Pistol and is much cleaner than Unique. Universal covers about the same load range as Unique. All the Best, D. White

January 28, 2010, 07:23 PM	#11
chunk Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2005 Location: alabama,gulf coast Posts: 131	AA # 5 or AA # 7 or vhitavouri n-350 or n-340 work well for .40 s&w imo __________________ TRAMPLE THE WEAK-HURDLETHE DEAD

January 27, 2010, 10:50 PM	#1
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Do I need a faster-burning powder? So far, I've tried Unique and Power Pistol for my .40 S&W (Springfield EMP with a 3" barrel). I like the Power Pistol (seems a lot cleaner than the Unique), but it gives a rather large, bright muzzle flash, which leads me to believe not all of the powder is burning by the time it leaves the barrel. Is there a list out there that ranks powder by burning speed, or if not, does anyone know of a good powder for a short-barreled .40? Thanks, Scott

January 27, 2010, 11:39 PM	#2
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Scott, if you perform a Google search for "powder burn rate chart", you'll find numerous references. As for 40S&W powder, I just began reloading that caliber myself having stayed away from it for years. I have been using W231 very successfully, but will try some others to determine which ones I feel are best for my loads.

January 27, 2010, 11:56 PM	#3
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Thanks for the tip on the burn rate chart. Also, let me know what you think of the 231 - that was going to be the next powder I try.

January 28, 2010, 07:56 AM	#6
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Yes there are powder burn charts at most powder mfg sites, I am not sure how helpfull they are since they only list the order of the powder and not really any information on the burn rate. I stopped using Power Pistol for my 40s because it SEEMS to be a slower burning powder and gives a real snappy recoil on my 3 inch PT140. Went back to W231 powder at the starting load for 155 JHP bullets and seems to work out real well, only thing I will load for my 3 inch 40 now. It's going to depend on the recoil spring in your gun as to how much powder to use, but it does take less powder to push the bullet out of a 3 inch that a 4 inch barrel. But you will lose range and distance with less powder. But then again you will lose range and distance with a 2 or 3 inch barrel over a 4 or 5 inch barrel anyways. If the recoil is manageable then leave your load alone, most short barrel pistols and revolvers are going to throw a orange flame out the front anyways, just the nature of the beast. If recoil is the issure than try the starting load from your book. Jim

January 28, 2010, 10:34 AM	#8
dfe2240 Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 56	I've used Bullseye, Unique and Longshot in my .40 cal reloads for my Glock 22 (4.5" barrel). FWIW, I noticed significantly more muzzle flash with Unique than I did with either Bullseye (faster burning) or Longshot (slower burning).

January 28, 2010, 03:10 PM	#9
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	I loaded three sets of 10 rounds using W231 beneath some 180gr XTP bullets when I was developing my first loads for a newly acquired P229. They all shot well, however the Chrony indicated the heavier charge had a more consistant velocity (sd ~9.xx). Accuracy was acceptable for all three sets. I did load another 80 rounds which my son burned thru just the other day. He simply said that he loved the gun - I suppose that also indicates that the ammo worked well.

February 16, 2010, 09:22 PM	#12
MR 8x57js Member Join Date: February 7, 2010 Posts: 36	ScottRiqui What bullet weight are you useing? in the 3 inch barrel i would use a 135 Gr that will give you less recoil. the biggest bullet i would use is a 150 Grainer. the higher you go up in bullet weight the slower the powder your going to need to get it out the barrel thus incressing the recoil,thus makeing a fellow up shot take longer.

February 16, 2010, 09:46 PM	#13
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Mike, I was told by an old friend that the flash of powder in a flintlock pan is a plasma action that ignites the main charge?? __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

February 17, 2010, 08:47 AM	#15
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	me and pp (vs "ejecta") I've found Power Pistol to be the ideal 40 S&W powder EXCEPT for its flash signature. I don't care, except for certain defense applications, and then I choose a different powder (sorry, secret). ALL other 40 S&W ammo gets loaded with Power Pistol. (W231 works great with 200g FMJ and magnum primers in the 40, but only when held to lesser velocities; Bullseye works great under 180g non-lead bullets, but only when held to under 4.2g. Longshot never delivered on its velocity promise). __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 17, 2010, 10:15 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Gbro, That I do not know for certain. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 17, 2010, 11:08 AM	#17
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	On the topic of muzzle flash.... I found this: http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm very interesting, and simple too. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 17, 2010, 11:53 AM	#18
RidgwayCO Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 244	+1 to Universal. My shooting buddy bought an M&P in .40 S&W, and then decided the cost of ammo was so high that he should start reloading... My loading manuals seemed to agree that Universal was a good choice in the .40 S&W, so we tried some. After trying the starting load in the Speer #14 for 165gr jacketed bullets (he uses Montana Gold), my buddy declared it "perfect", and has never reloaded anything else for his S&W M&P. I sort of envy him his ability to not tinker endlessly with a load... __________________ "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Nope, not a single word about hunting...

February 17, 2010, 01:51 PM	#19
jeffreybehr Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Posts: 83	H. Universal indeed. Here's some useful muzzle-flash info. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n27380935/ According to this article, Hodgdon Universal has no muzzle flash. I use it in my .40-cal. and .45 G.A.P PD loads.