5.56 vs .223 for Home Defense

[Panfisher]

For my purposes a rifle is a better choice. I live out in the country and th likelihood is many times higher that I would use a firearm against a coyite, dot or feral cat than against a person. That plus my wife had 14 years of familiarity with an AR courtesy of the US Army makes it a no brained here. Low to no recoil, easy to operate and hit with, down side is it is a bit loud, but certainly no worse than a shotgun. Soft or fragile bullets only for us.

[davidsog]

That is not nearly as good as the “options” avail to the avg citizen

That is just not true. While the "big army" or "marines" does have a cumbersome acquisition system other MACOM's have a completely different system with unprecedented support.

Not only could we get what we wanted but we had munition engineers, weapon manufacturers, and scientist working with operators to get the best solution possible for our needs.

The 77 grain worked much better than the green tip. As we were target selective, It had over penetration issues and that was a problem for us as well as anyone trying to defend a home with their loved ones in it.

5.56mm is far from being the most effective round at room engagement distances. That is just a fact and why it took multiple rounds to put down a man. Again, we averaged 8 rounds a EKIA....

That means your 30 round magazine can effectively neutralize 3-4 targets....

That puts the 6 to 8 12 gauge rounds in a new light being equally if not more effective at room engagement distances.

[ShaulWolf]

Originally Posted by davidsog

5.56mm is far from being the most effective round at room engagement distances. That is just a fact and why it took multiple rounds to put down a man. Again, we averaged 8 rounds a EKIA....

While the data gained from combat is useful, it's not entirely the same as a home defense situation. Ammunition selection, engagement distances, number of aggressors, and situation are going to be different, to name a few variables.

Generally, 5.56/.223 does well enough all things considered in a defensive scenario. Rifle rounds have a greater consistent effective range, while still having less over penetration than pistol rounds, buckshot, and slugs. The ability to have greater precision, accuracy, and faster follow up shots is also a plus.

And I've read enough AAR's that it can take anywhere between one thoroughly well placed shot in combat to half a mag if a target was hopped up on something. You can see the same with police shootings.

Originally Posted by davidsog

That means your 30 round magazine can effectively neutralize 3-4 targets....

Possibly, depending on a number of factors, to include shot placement. Additionally, 3-4 targets tends to be the most number of aggressors encountered in a defensive situation at home, though that's not always the max number.

And, again, shot placement. A shotgun might be more forgiving, but is that shot going to flat out stop an aggressor with the first shot? What if you only catch them with part of the spread, or miss entirely? How good are the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth shots going to be? How quickly will they be fired? Is the shooter competent enough that it can be done quickly?

If the shooter is that competent with a shotgun, would they be just as competent (or better) with an AR?

Originally Posted by davidsog

That puts the 6 to 8 12 gauge rounds in a new light being equally if not more effective at room engagement distances.

Possibly, depending on the size of the room and if that first shot hit solidly. It also depends on the load used. Follow up shots are going to be slower, and you won't have as much precision unless you get to near contact distances.

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Now, all that being said, while I heavily lean towards an AR for most defensive situations, shotguns can still do well. If you don't have to worry about backdrop, and you only have to cover a single point of entry, then a shotgun could easily be a good choice.

I would still say that an AR is a better choice for most though. It's easier to shoot, easier to manipulate, tends to be more forgiving with over penetration, and offers more accuracy and precision.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by davidsog

The 77 grain worked much better than the green tip. As we were target selective, It had over penetration issues and that was a problem for us as well as anyone trying to defend a home with their loved ones in it.

An overpenetration issue? What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying you are hitting the target at close ranges with 77gr in the torso and an intact bullet is exiting and injuring other people? I’m having a hard time picturing how a round that is all lead and only 15gr heavier is creating a noticeable difference in penetration vs. a round with a steel penetrator that fails to yaw or tumble and ice picks about 25% of the time.

5.56mm is far from being the most effective round at room engagement distances. That is just a fact and why it took multiple rounds to put down a man. Again, we averaged 8 rounds a EKIA....

Law enforcement stateside is engaging people at room distances with 5.56 and they aren’t using anywhere near eight hits per person even in the extreme outliers. Why do you think there is such a dramatic difference between their experience and what you report?

Not only could we get what we wanted but we had munition engineers, weapon manufacturers, and scientist working with operators to get the best solution possible for our needs.

If you can get the best possible solution for your needs, why are you using Mk262 and M855 at room distances? Because those aren’t and haven’t been the best possible solution in 5.56 for over a decade now.

[davidsog]

An overpenetration issue? What exactly do you mean by that?

A bullet passing through a threat and continuing with the potential to cause unintentional damage to a bystander or object is a situation commonly described as over-penetration.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...erpenetration/

In the Army, that is great way to kill/injure team members and kill innocents.

In your home, that is great way to kill your family.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...for-civilians/

Bartholomew Roberts says:

Law enforcement stateside is engaging people at room distances with 5.56 and they aren’t using anywhere near eight hits per person even in the extreme outliers. Why do you think there is such a dramatic difference between their experience and what you report?

There is not a dramatic difference in lethality but Law Enforcement has far less experience in two way shooting ranges as the military.

Unfortunately, the information that agencies are using to choose the ammo for their officers is generally based on hype as well as the flawed standardized testing using ballistic gel and measurements of the depth of penetration into ballistic gel, degree of bullet expansion, and other factors. Usually, actual data on human body wound ballistics is not available to agencies when they are choosing ammo for their officers.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...realities.aspx

That is why "Big Army" has even fielded "improved" ammunition based on the 5.56mm actual performance. Watch the film...

The M855A1 is designed to overcome the less than lethal characteristics of M855 (green tip) at close range and improve its penetration at longer ranges.

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/m...oldiers-video/

If you can get the best possible solution for your needs, why are you using Mk262 and M855 at room distances? Because those aren’t and haven’t been the best possible solution in 5.56 for over a decade now.

Well, in 2003 there was nobody in the US inventory with any real world experience of any significance.

Now there is and it is not Law Enforcement.

[davidsog]

Do not get me wrong. I loved my M4 and it was a great weapon as a general purpose soldiers tool.

It was not ideal for all things however. For home defense of your loved ones, I would pick something else and I did.

For defending a city it is a good choice though.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by davidsog

In your home, that is great way to kill your family.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...for-civilians/

You’re saying that 5.56 poses a threat of overpenetration using 77gr; but then you’ve linked to a story of a guy in combat failing to get a stop with M855 and arguing 5.56 is not lethal enough for self-defense. I am not understanding how those two are related.

And in any case, civilians don’t have to use 77gr or M855. There are plenty of good options that don’t pose any greater threat of overpenetration than any other commonly used defensive pistol round (and in some cases, less of a threat).

There is not a dramatic difference in lethality but Law Enforcement has far less experience in two way shooting ranges as the military.

Law enforcement is using 5.56 from an AR15 at home defense distances regularly. I’ve never personally seen a case that involved eight hits of 5.56 being necessary to end a threat. So it makes me wonder, if law enforcement has less experience, why are they solving their problems with much fewer rounds than you report using the same tools?

[davidsog]

You’re saying that 5.56 poses a threat of overpenetration using 77gr;................

I said either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

The links highlight that fact.

There are better home defense tools out there than a 5.56mm platform which is also fact.

they solving their problems with much fewer rounds than you report using the same tools?

Please show the facts as just claiming this as nothing I have seen backs it up and it is hyperbole at this point. It is not my job to fix misconceptions on the internet

Again, in 2003, there was NOT any reliable data from law enforcement on wound ballistics of 5.56mm including all the top federal agencies. I certainly would not hold out the Law Enforcement community as the "be all end all" of using 5.56mm to defend your home.

The bulk of your wound ballistic data from 5.56mm comes from the folks who are mixing metal and meat on a regular basis....the military.

[rickyrick]

All this long thread but the answer is basic.

Just use any expanding ammunition designed for hunting 55gr or heavier. Most of that is going to be .223.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by davidsog

I said either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

Not true. See for example:
http://www.hornadyle.com/resources/f...to-ammunition/
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/5-56-mm-duty-loads
http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Te...erformance.pdf

Here is a 75gr Hornady with a penetration depth of 12.5” (less than most duty pistol ammo) and a max cavity of 5.25”: http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...75-gr-bthp-tap

Plenty of room distance effectiveness with less risk of overpenetration than a pistol or shotgun loaded with #1 buck.

There are better home defense tools out there than a 5.56mm platform which is also fact.

No, it’s an opinion - and not even a well-formed one. Home defense depends on all kinds of variables and the best tool depends on the situation and individual. At the end of the day, training is a much more important factor than caliber or firearm.

The bulk of your wound ballistic data from 5.56mm comes from the folks who are mixing metal and meat on a regular basis....the military.

The military’s keynote speaker on ballistics at three or four NDIA conferences is Dr. Gary K. Roberts (see above links), who is a medic for a tactical team and a dentist. For that matter, no small number of LE guys are former military themselves, often with multiple deployments.

I can’t speak for what law enforcement was doing in 2003. As of today, they are shooting people with 5.56 and they are not using eight rounds to do it. That would be an extreme anomaly. I’m interested in why their experience differs from yours but you don’t seem interested in having that discussion.

[ShaulWolf]

Engagement distances typical for military differ from law enforcement. Ammunition selection is also different. My Sheriff's Office will not use military ammunition (specifically M855) due to concerns about over penetration. We have it on hand, but it's not the primary ammunition, and considered a special threat round.

Typical engagement distances for law enforcement is within 50 meters, and most of that within 25 meters. Exceptions apply, such as in rural areas, but the majority happen in urban or suburban areas.


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Data from military sources needs to be put into context. The ammunition, engagement distances, targets encountered, and building material around it needs to be taken into consideration. There is a lot that's different enough to what's encountered CONUS that more data needs to be pulled and examined before making direct correlations to what will happen CONUS.

Additionally, data sources need to be considered as well. While online publications are useful, getting more direct data from people who have been in defensive shootings, medical professionals (especially in the trauma field), and more recent testing (personal and/or established) is also important.

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5.56 has proven to be quite effective for those distances and beyond, especially with good defensive ammunition. Speer Gold Dots seem to be the round of choice, for my agency and others around us, because it has shown to work.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sure; but we were specifically discussing home defense and inside room distances in this context, not general military use.

[Sharkbite]

The other HUGE variable is barrel length.

The origional 5.56 M16 had a 20” barrel. Now we are using much shorter barrels. The typical civilian barrel is 16”. My last contract overseas i was issued a 10.5” gun. Thats HALF the barrels length of the original. Performance suffers.

A short barrel WITH non-expanding ammo is going to suck, both in lack of terminal performance and in over penetration.

A well chosen 55gn thin jacketed soft/hollow/ballistic tip bullet will do better then ANYTHING the military will have avail (for civilian HD/SD use).

62gn green tip, M855, M855a1... none come close to the performance of ammo such as the Hornady TAP

[Guv]

What about a 55gr FMJ out of a fast (1-7) twist?
Never seen the affect on a human but that over-stabilized pill will flat mess up a varmint on up to 50-75 lbs.
My cousins boy completely destroyed a nice turkey with one PMC 55gr FMJ out of an AR.

[Sharkbite]

The original M-16, that I believe, had a one in 12 twist. That actually under stabilized the bullet causing it to yaw and subsequently come apart on impact

Couple that with the high velocity imparted by the 20 inch barrel and it was a winner in terminal ballistics. Today’s guns have faster twists and shorter barrels. All of which hamper the rounds ability to perform as designed

[konstan]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

Oh boy... here we go again.

The difference is the length of leade in the barrel. Mil guns, 556 chambers, have a longer leade (bullet jump to rifling). As such ammo for those is loaded differently then for 223 chambers.

Externally, the ammo is the same.

Sharkbite gets it... this is why 223 Wylde is a chamber, not a cartridge.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The original M16 had a 1:14 twist. That was insufficient to stabilize some rounds in air in arctic conditions during testing, so it was changed to 1:12. Spinning a round fast enough to keep it from yawing after impact would need a twist like a machine screw, so the difference between 1:7 and 1:14 os irrelevant there.

The precise attitude of the bullet at the moment of impact affects military FMJ rounds (or any round that relies on tumbling to be effective). The third link in post #60 has a short explanation of that.

[rickyrick]

Fmj 55gr can be surprisingly gruesome, but I’m my experience, it is also unpredictable. Well known expanding bullets tend to be more consistent as far as damages go, but they all have some level of unpredictability. Center mass shots are the best policy.
When hunting game of the same species, you learn what happens at different impact points on the animal as your experience grows.
Most of us haven’t been through self defense scenarios, so you don’t really know what’s going to happen, so center mass is the most ideal.

[JeepHammer]

In regards to defense with FMJ ammo.
The first M16 rifles had 1:14" twist barrels (most people get that wrong) that were 20" long from closed bolt face to end of 3 prong flash hider (without rifle grenade 'finger' spring adapter).
The bullet had a deep cannelure, and was 52 grains in weight. It was a solid lead core from top to base, no air pocket under the jacket in the nose.

The velocity stated/published didn't match actual velocities, often 3,400+ FPS instead of the 3,150 FPS the manufactures claimed.
The American military ammunition makers NOT being in full production of the 5.56 NATO round, used the limited supply of US made ammo in US field testing,
But during the testing of the AR-15 (XM15/SP15) in Viet Nam the foreign made NATO ammunition was commonly used.
When the M16 was deployed to speclized units in Viet Nam the foreign made ammo was still common and had higher velocities with devastating results and the rifle/round had nothing but good recommendation.
(Foreign ammo didn't age well, causing a crap ton of issues with the M16)

The HAGUE ACCORDS, 1899 & 1907, (not Genevia Convention) required a Full Metal Jacket, and specifically excluded/outlawed soft lead, hollow points, cross cuts and anything else that would expand on impact.
Cores that would fragment (zinc, pressed metal, glass, etc) were also outlawed.

Terminal Ballistics.
The pointed bullet hits the target, the base being MUCH heavier than the nose/point, yaws in the target.
Surface area increases when the bullet turns sideways or backward, expending more inertia energy in the target.
The deep cannelure in the bullet allowed the bullet to break apart at 2,700 to 2,750 FPS creating two wound channels.

Shorter range jungle and swamp warfare allowed the bullet to retain much of it's velocity and contributed to horrific injuries.

The effect of the bullet breaking in two wasn't seen in .30 cal rounds, and was considered a 'Work Around' of the ban on fragmenting bullets when discovered.
Fragmentation of 5.56 NATO bullets was one of many consideration in the $3 Billion reparations agreement with Viet Nam (which the US never paid).

The reboot of the M16 (M16A1) saw several changes, not the least of which was 1:12" twist barrels to stablize the then standardized 55 grain bullet, and the 62 grain 'Penetrator' bullet and forward assist, hollow stocks with trap door for cleaning kits, ridges around the magazine eject button, etc.
American military bullet makers were in full production by this time, using ball powder and velocities came down to published materials.

It's laws of physics that can't be broken, shorter barrels reduce muzzle velocity, heavier bullets reduce muzzle velocity. The shorter the barrel and heavier the bullet the less damage the bullet is going to do.
The government requirement for a 16" civilian barrel in carbine rifles has standardized the velocity drop somewhat, but pistol length barrels reduce velocity.
The military continues to chop the barrel off, use heavier bullets in a schizophrenic spiral of stupid...

[pblanc]

NATO did not adopt the 5.56x45 mm cartridge until the mid 1970s so the ammunition used to test the XM15 or later used in Vietnam was not NATO ammunition.

The only 5.56x45 mm NATO rounds (M-855, M-855A1, SS109) are all 62 grain FMJ, not 55 grain. The USGI M-193 55 grain was the cartridge adopted by the US Military in Vietnam.

My understanding, which may be only partially correct, is that while the external case dimensions of the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO or USGI M-193 are identical, the internal capacity of the cartridges was slightly different due to slightly greater thickness of the brass case of the later rounds in some areas. The result being that the .223 Rem case would hold slightly more powder. Conversely, given the same amount of powder, case pressure in the 5.56x45 cartridges would be slightly greater than with the .223 Rem cases. I have read that this is no longer the case, and .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO or M-193 now use cases that are identical in both external dimensions and internal capacity, but I do not know if that is true. Perhaps someone here does.

It is difficult to directly compare the case pressures of .223 Rem and 5.56x45 because the former is tested using SAAMI protocol and the later tested using EPVAT standards using an entirely different protocol. But it is generally accepted (I believe) that at least some 5.56 ammo is loaded to produce a slightly higher maximum case pressure than the SAAMI standard for .223 Rem.

A more important consideration is the difference in projectile dimensions between .223 Rem and 62 grain 5.56 NATO. In comparison with the original USGI M-193 and .223 Rem projectiles, the ogive on a 62 grain 5.56 NATO cartridge is farther forward. This is what necessitated cutting the 5.56 chamber with a different leade, deeper and at a different angle. If a 5.56 NATO cartridge is chambered in a barrel reamed for .223 Rem, the shorter leade of the chamber may result in some set back of the projectile in the cartridge case. This in conjunction with the fact that the NATO cartridge can be loaded to slightly greater pressure to begin with, can result in significant over-pressurization.

[davidsog]

davidsog says:

I said either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

Let's look at the manufacturer advertising for their products....

Hornaday says

Are there over-penetration risks when using 223 or 5.56 NATO ammunition?

In short, no. In fact, every Hornady® 223 Rem and 5.56 NATO load is designed to penetrate less than most service pistol cartridges. Total penetration varies from as little as 5.5 inches from the 40 grain load to 15 inches from the 62 grain barrier load. All of these are equal to or less than the FBI’s maximum recommended penetration of 15 inches.

I agree with a 55 grain bullet, you are not going to have over penetration issues. You will have stopping capability issues with a 55 grain bullet. It does not have time to expand. It's "maximum cavitation" and ability to "expand rapidly" is not enough requiring mulitple rounds to eliminate a threat.

That is real world experience against human targets.

The last part:

All Hornady® 223 and 5.56 loads are designed to expand rapidly when they come into contact with a soft medium. This allows for maximum wound cavitation and little risk of over-penetration.

Is a generic advertising plug and without specific measured results.


Your very next article says EXACTLY what I have said to you!!!

As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance.

davidsog says:

I said either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/5-56-mm-duty-loads

The report you submit is great stuff..........not really. It briefs well but is simply one of many flawed tests conducted using theory on ballistics gelatin.

You are going down the same flawed path reaching the same flawed conclusions and thinking you are being smart.

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Te...erformance.pdf

When we started shooting people, lots of people, we found those theories had flaws.

Unfortunately, the information that agencies are using to choose the ammo for their officers is generally based on hype as well as the flawed standardized testing using ballistic gel and measurements of the depth of penetration into ballistic gel, degree of bullet expansion, and other factors. Usually, actual data on human body wound ballistics is not available to agencies when they are choosing ammo for their officers.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...realities.aspx

Bartholomew Roberts says:
No, it’s an opinion - and not even a well-formed one. Home defense depends on all kinds of variables and the best tool depends on the situation and individual. At the end of the day, training is a much more important factor than caliber or firearm.

NO, it is a fact there are other options and even better options for home defense than a 5.56mm round or an AR-15. That is why we have choices and not solely limited to 5.56mm because others recognize the shortcomings too!

Honestly, you sound like a AR-15 manufacturer or employee. I love the weapon. Carried one for 26 1/2 years and multiple combat deployments from Asia to Central America to the Middle East. It is a tool in the toolbox. If you only put a leatherman in your toolbox, you won't be overhauling many engines.

[rpseraph]

All this 223 556 drama! I love it!

This is part of the reason that my latest ARs have been built in 223 Wylde chambering. It has had 0 issues feeding either reliably, has been more accurate with both, and is designed to handle both.

As far as defensive round, I think that 223 has more expanding self-defense type rounds. I won a couple boxes of Speer Gold Dot 223 (77 gr I think?)in a raffle that I have in a mag if needed. But I would feel comfortable using some of the pile of Federal Fusion 223 (62 gr) that I use for Coyote. I live in a house and pretty close to other neighbors, so I probably wouldn't grab an AR for HD as a first option.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by davidsog

NO, it is a fact there are other options and even better options for home defense than a 5.56mm round or an AR-15. That is why we have choices and not solely limited to 5.56mm because others recognize the shortcomings too!

In my opinion, a semi-auto rifle in .223/5.56 is the best home-defense long gun you can have. It offers the best compromise between power, a lower chance of over-penetration, and low recoil for faster follow-up shots.

Originally Posted by rpseraph

I live in a house and pretty close to other neighbors, so I probably wouldn't grab an AR for HD as a first option.

Good grief. How many times do we need to rebut this myth in this thread?

If you’re worried about your neighbors, a rifle in .223/5.56 should be your first choice.

[rickyrick]

I’ve deduced from the responses to this ridiculously over thinking thread that:

That ARs in 5.56/.223 are a poor choice for defensive purposes because despite being able to rip through your house and injure your neighbors and family on the way, it lacks the power to stop a bad guy who’s in the same 120 square feet that you are occupying <<< this is sarcasm...

Give me a freakin break.
Use ammunition intended to expand, that’s what you need to know.

[rpseraph]

Quote:

Good grief. How many times do we need to rebut this myth in this thread?

Sorry, I think I misspoke/was misunderstood. I am speaking more to ranges and space constraints. I don't worry about a round of 223 going through the whole neighborhood (though a wall or two is very possible for FMJ)... I am saying that on my property, my longest shot is less than 50 yards, and that would be shooting from the curb to the back fence (bad idea anyway haha). If I am inside the house, I am at less than 40 feet and narrow hallways, less than ideal for MY SKILLS and MY AR. That... is why I wouldn't grab my AR at MY house to defend MY family.