+P vs. not: Which handguns

[Brit]

The place your projectile hits? Is far more important than what you hit it with.

One of my students (ATM repair crew) shot a person advancing on him, broken pint glass in his hand, the jagged part facing out. From 6' away. The .38 Special, 158g Semi-Wadcutter, lead, non-hollow point, entered the sternum, struck the heart, found on the gurney at the hospital. Threw and threw hit.

The effect, from the view of witnesses, instant stop! half a step back. Vertical collapse. Not a fallback, more of a crumble. No pulse at the scene pronounced at the hospital.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Brit

The place your projectile hits? Is far more important than what you hit it with.



One of my students (ATM repair crew) shot a person advancing on him, broken pint glass in his hand, the jagged part facing out. From 6' away. The .38 Special, 158g Semi-Wadcutter, lead, non-hollow point, entered the sternum, struck the heart, found on the gurney at the hospital. Threw and threw hit.



The effect, from the view of witnesses, instant stop! half a step back. Vertical collapse. Not a fallback, more of a crumble. No pulse at the scene pronounced at the hospital.

Not arguing results of a shooting that I’m not familiar with... however, that doesn’t make your statement about velocity correct. People have been killed with .22s, does that mean 9mm is overkill?

You stated that increasing velocity makes no sense. I replied with a basic formula that pretty much shows that velocity is the one part of the energy equation that changes over the course of the bullet’s path (mass doesn’t change as heads down range, at least until it hits something). Could you get by with a 158 grain SWC, going about 750 FPS? Of course you can. However, that doesn’t mean there is no reason not to increase velocity with +P loads... and it doesn’t just “possibly damage your gun.”

[WheelGunMan]

Bullets have been advancing in the ability to incapacitate humans!
So increasing in velocity, to push the envelope, for what reason? Possibly damage your gun. Makes no sense.

I believe whole premise for increasing velocity is to allow the bullet to achieve fuller expansion thus creating more hydraulic displacement. I think it's referred to the venturi effect.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by WheelGunMan

I believe whole premise for increasing velocity is to allow the bullet to achieve fuller expansion thus creating more hydraulic displacement. I think it's referred to the venturi effect.

Does your idea of the Venturi effect match the description of the Venturi effect at the link below?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

[WheelGunMan]

Does your idea of the Venturi effect match the description of the Venturi effect at the link below?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

Yes..it deals with fluid dynamics.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by weblance

The Ruger American pistol states that it is "Performance tested for sustained +P ammunition use."

I have never seen another claim like that with any pistol.

HK USP/USPC.. For +p/+p+

[WheelGunMan]

Quote:
Bullets have been advancing in the ability to incapacitate humans!
So increasing in velocity, to push the envelope, for what reason? Possibly damage your gun. Makes no sense.

I believe whole premise for increasing velocity is to allow the bullet to achieve fuller expansion thus creating more hydraulic displacement. I think it's referred to the venturi effect.

To take that a step further...ammo such as ARX has taken a standard pressure .38 Special round incorporating their copper/polymer injection molded non expanding bullet of only 77 grains and are pushing it out of a short barrel snub with velocities approaching 1100 fps...and penetrating into ballistic gel to depths within FBI protocols producing equivalent wound channels of a 125 grain JHP .38+p. I think they're making great strides in ammo technology.

[Cosmodragoon]

Bullets have been advancing in the ability to incapacitate humans!
So increasing in velocity, to push the envelope, for what reason?

Velocity aids in expansion. While bullet technology has improved over the years, low velocity can still be a problem. This is part of why .380 and .38 special are considered marginal for self defense by some people. This can also be a problem for .45 acp but the bullets are wide and heavy enough that few people consider it marginal. Personally, I think any gun is better than no gun. All of these rounds can be effective for self defense. Some are better than others. You should judge the degree for yourself.

Numbers on a screen are one thing. There is a reason that physics class comes with a lab. You should have an intuitive understanding of what your handgun actually does. You can have fun developing that by shooting different kinds of media. Save up your recyclables for a while so you can fill them with water, mud, sand, etc. Keep an eye out for expired canned goods or food that has gotten past prime. Plan a few weeks out and have fun. Watch what happens to the things you shoot. (Just be sure to use eye protection, stand at a safe distance, and clean up when you are done.) It can be a nice break from paper targets and you can learn a lot.

Another thing you can do with a lot less preparation is to go look up Paul Harrell on YouTube. He has a lot of caliber comparison videos and he often shoots a "meat target" that is made to simulate a body. It isn't perfect but it's a very nice compliment to what you can learn from gel tests.

[44 AMP]

I'm not aware of any full size semi-auto 9mm that won't handle +p ammo.

Well, you won't see any +p ammo go through my Luger P.08, Mauser C96 Bolo, or my Walther P.38, period. And they are certainly full size...

There are two basic issues with "+p" ammo, first is that for a long time, there was no standard for what +p was. Any and everything above the standard pressure is +p, and it could be 3%, or 15% (what I believe the current standard for +p is) or it could be 50%(), and the second part of the issue is whether or not the ammo you are shooting actually conforms to the +p standard. Not all does.

I wouldn't risk any pistol made before the 1970s by using +p in it.

If the gun in question is currently manufactured, as the maker. If they say NAY, then Nay it should be.

[Brit]

I think a few posters are missing my point. +p 9mm, gives more recoil, more bang (possibly more flash?) None of those things (IMO) help you in a gunfight.

The shooting I described, was between one of my students, and a criminal.
The witnesses were two young Ladies, at a bus stop, waiting for a Bus, which was not there at this time.

What was interesting to me, was a conversation with an Autopsy Surgeon.
He said the skin on the impact point, has the bullet going easily through the skin, it has flesh and bone behind it, a good base the bullet that is.

But the bullet leaving the body, with only a shirt behind it, a standing subject.
Has this amazing material, the human skin, which can stretch many inches, therefore slowing down the exiting projectile. Depending on the forward profile of the bullet.
That was a one on one conversation, I can not prove that.

[44 AMP]

Its a little difficult to grasp, the way you described it, but it makes perfect sense. Skin at the entry wound has tissue behind it, and no where to go to stretch, so the bullet punctures it easily.

Skin at the exit wound has nothing (but a shirt) to hold it against the bullet's passage, so it stretches and tears (often) as the bullet exits through it.

This can easily be seen with larger, torn exit wounds, even when a non-expanding type bullet was the cause.

If you look at what handgun bullets actually do, you can see there are "plateau" levels, where velocity makes a noticeable difference in effectiveness.

+p ammo is intended to partially bridge the gap between the level of a cartridge, and the higher level of another. What is does, in effect is get you part way there. Whether or not getting part way there produces the same effect as the next higher level of performance varies.

Some think it matters, some think it doesn't. The people who are "properly shot" aren't talking, and even if they did, each case is an individual, with many, many factors involved, so other than some generalities, little specifically useful can be gained.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Brit

I think a few posters are missing my point. +p 9mm, gives more recoil, more bang (possibly more flash?) None of those things (IMO) help you in a gunfight.

Two reasons I disagree with that...

First, that is what practice helps with. If that logic was sound, we all would be carrying .22s.

Second, with adrenaline, you aren’t going to notice the difference in recoil. Hell, you might not even notice the recoil. 9mm +P verses standard pressure isn’t .38 verses .500 Magnum.

[GarandTd]

+P vs not: Which handguns
In the last 20 posts, there have been only 2 that have mentioned a specific firearm and whether or not it is +p rated (you know, the topic). That's more than 1/2 the posts on this thread.

Do any of those that are discussing the merits of +p vs not have a handgun that falls into either[one or the other] category? Please, tell us about it.

[David R]

Kimber Micro 9 manual page 67

Although this Kimber firearm is capable of functioning with +P ammunition in the appropriate caliber for the firearm, a steady diet of +P ammunition may affect the wear characteristics, shorten the life and endurance of your firearm, and necessitate more frequent maintenance and replacement of parts.


My Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 special had a tag on it that said +P rated. I think that was for the 38 version.

David

[44 AMP]

Do any of those that are discussing the merits of +p vs not have a handgun that falls into either category?

Weil,.. they kind of have to be one, or the other...
Don't they??

I do have one that, while not officially +p rated, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot with +p or even +p+ 9mm Luger ammo.

My T/C Contender!! 6" 9mm Luger barrel.

About as far from modern service class semi autos as one can get, but still a 9mm Luger and about as stout as it gets in that caliber.

While it may seem otherwise these days, the entire shooting world is not made up of just "combat Tupperware".

I realize this doesn't really address the OP's intent, and I wish I could give him a list, but its not that simple. With any currently made pistol, ask the maker. With those out of production, there's no "authority" to ask, and therefore, probably best not to chance problems by shooting +p ammo.

[GarandTd]

We'll,..they kind of have to be one or the other.... don't they??

You got me there, 44 AMP. I didn't word my plea quite right.

[Dufus]

+P vs not: Which handguns
In the last 20 posts, there have been only 2 that have mentioned a specific firearm and whether or not it is +p rated (you know, the topic). That's more than 1/2 the posts on this thread.

Do any of those that are discussing the merits of +p vs not have a handgun that falls into either[one or the other] category? Please, tell us about it.

S&W says I can use +P in mine, but cautions on requiring more service if used.

They say NO to +P+.

My guns will never see either.

[44 AMP]

not a semi auto (sorry) but on the subject of +p ammo, I have a Colt Agent .38 Spl (alloy frame Detective Special).

Lots of questions about it when it came out, and Colt took the position that it was ok to use +p BUT, you should send them the gun to have it checked out after 1,000 rounds, and every 1,000 there after.

Sadly, I don't think Colt will do or can do that anymore. I know I'll never come close to 1000 rnds of +p through that gun in my lifetime...

A friend of mine had the locking lugs of his Browning Hi Power peened by shooting some "+p" 9mm ammo, back in the mid 80s. No idea what the ammo was, other than European surplus something. Everything over standard is +p, but not all +p is SAAMI spec +p and some of it is much hotter. The fabled "hot European SMG ammo" too hot for pistols, probably does exist, though no one seems to be able to ID the maker or markings...

Be wary of stuff that is foreign made and loose packed (repacked), it may NOT be properly identified, and just might be something not good for your pistol. Treat it like Bubba's gun show reloads in a baggie. you don't and can't know for sure what it is, so its not safe to shoot, but can be broken down for the bullets, and maybe the brass. Toss the powder.

[Screwball]

Here is mine...

As there is no .40 +P, if I have info on it, it will probably just be generic to the platform.

Beretta 92 - +P and +P+ will increase wear

Beretta PX4 - +P and +P+ will increase wear

CZ75 SP01 - no mention other than SAAMI, other cartridges could damage; all steel gun, to point out

Glock 30S - no mention

Nagant 1895 - Century “manual,” no mention

NAA Sidewinder - a .22 revolver (LR and Magnum)... no mention

Ruger LCP - do not use +P

Ruger New Vaquero Convertible - nothing specific, just powder overloads could damage the gun; doesn’t list anything about .45 ACP cylinder

Ruger SR1911 - no mention, except powder overloads

SIG P228 - no mention

SIG P938 - no mention, but SIG says +P will increase wear

S&W 1006 - +P will increase wear, +P+ not to be used

S&W 629/642 - same generic manual; +P will increase wear (also warning about pre-1958 revolvers), +P+ not to be used

S&W M&P Pro/Compact - .40 guns, same manual; +P will increase wear, +P+ not to be used

Yugo M57 - no manual

[GarandTd]

Page 16 of the Remington RM380 manual: "WARNING! Only use ammunition designated on the Barrel. Using ammunition not designated on the Barrel including "Plus-P" (+P) or a "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) of the same caliber, may cause property damage, personal injury, and/or death."

According to the manual, Remington recommends SAMMI spec ammunition and I don't believe there are any SAMMI guidelines for 380 +p/+p+. Also, Remington highly recommends usage of Remington or Barnes branded ammunition products.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The fabled "hot European SMG ammo" too hot for pistols, probably does exist, though no one seems to be able to ID the maker or markings...

Here's a list that I've compiled from various sources of ways to identify some of that fabled "extra hot" 9mm subgun ammo. YMMV.

• "L7A1", "L18A1", or "9MM CARB." (for 9mm Carbine) packaging or headstamps
• Packaging labeled "FOR SUBMACHINE GUNS" or "FOR UZI"
• Hirtenberger, Samson, or Israeli Military Industries (IMI) packaging [not all ammo sold under these names is bad; this should be cross-checked with other warning signs]
• "MK 2z" or "2Z" packaging or headstamps, particularly in conjunction with Pakistani Ordinance Factory (POF) markings

I've also read horror stories online about some batches of Canadian milsurp 9mm NATO imported in the 1980s, but there seems to be some disagreement about whether it's really dangerously "hot" or just obnoxiously loud (), and I haven't found anything definitively explaining how to identify it.

Originally Posted by =44 AMP

Be wary of stuff that is foreign made and loose packed (repacked), it may NOT be properly identified, and just might be something not good for your pistol. Treat it like Bubba's gun show reloads in a baggie. you don't and can't know for sure what it is, so its not safe to shoot, but can be broken down for the bullets, and maybe the brass. Toss the powder.

Sage advice.

FWIW I treat ammo that's not in original and clearly marked packaging the same way I would treat motor oil or ground beef in similar packaging: I let the OTHER guy try it.

[turkeestalker]

I was always under the impression that the +P stuff was more of a gimmick than anything else and the +P+ was fools folly.
Seems the stuff has hung on longer than most gimmicks do.

[kymasabe]

I know from experience that Charter Arms revolvers do not like +p ammo. I've had a few and ran regular .38 special in all but one. Had one I ran +p thru and rattled that poor gun to pieces in no time, just couldn't handle it.
I don't see a need for 9mm+p. If I want more power, I'll buy a .40cal.

[Koda94]

Springfield Armory 1911 owners manual says +P ammo is not recommended in pistols shorter than 5 inches.

Personally, I don't see any need to run +P ammo its just another caliber war type of belief.

The last thing you want is to rely on something that performs totally different than what you train with, there are plenty of quality self defense loads that are not +P that penetrate and expand just fine under normal pressure loads.

[kymasabe]

I just checked my S&W SD9, manual says +P is a solid maybe ( excessive pressures, accelerated wear) and +p+ is a hard no.