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Old November 14, 2017, 12:50 PM   #51
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I rarely carry a handgun even though I can.
That is a reality of far too many victims.
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Old November 14, 2017, 01:20 PM   #52
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44, thanks for the great information.

The initial question seemed to be are large bullets like the .45 obsolete, and did the 9mm cause it.

No, it's not obsolete, but it has been replaced for all practical purposes for many reasons.

Obsolete ? No. There are people who hold on to that round because it is powerful, as long as handguns are made there will ALWAYS be guns chambered in .45.

Replaced, yes, for better or worse, the .45 has replaced it, and really, the funny thing is, the big improvement in bullets isn't really a cause, it's just a side story.

The 9mm cartridge is so obviously inferior to the .45 cartridge (assuming that you put the bullet into the body) that only a fool will call it better, or choose it in your contender analogy. But, we don't carry a bullet in a single shot handgun, we carry a pistol, and pistols that use 9mm ammo have replaced pistols that fire .45.

When almost every major organization looked at their options, they set aside the .45 and started using a 9mm luger, mak, or other.

The .45 was replaced as the default combat handgun cartridge decades ago. The situation is obvious. A powerful cartridge is obviously more powerful. Power isn't everything. In fact, power is quite obviously unimportant when judging what ammunition will be placed in the handguns that people will carry.

Did you really, seriously believe that I thought that the .45 was a better cartridge?
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Old November 14, 2017, 01:39 PM   #53
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Going back to the speed of loading the M1 Garand, it can be done quite quickly. I've seen this in person and in videos. Even I'm not overly slow at it, and I have very limited experience. As I said in my response as well I don't really see that as a valid complaint. I think 44amp rebutted that well, too. Moreso I don't think the time required to load an M1 Garand is proof of the need for pistols to handle human wave attacks. Again, we found other means to counter those than needing to issue every soldier a pistol.
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Old November 14, 2017, 03:54 PM   #54
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The .45 ACP an .44 Special work by mostly creating large permeate wound cavities by just being big ass bullets.

Have expanding bullets finally made big bullets obsolete?
Context.

The bullet is one part of the equation. Why limit yourself to 44 Special or 45 ACP for big bullets? I carry my S&W 69, 44 magnum loaded with light for caliber, fast HP's. Granted, it is not for everybody, it takes skill and ability to effectively shoot a magnum revolver.

The 9mm is popular because it is inexpensive and easily mastered, that does not mean it is better.

Your answer, no.
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Old November 14, 2017, 06:23 PM   #55
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Getting back to the OP..

Quote:
Have expanding bullets finally made big bullets obsolete?
I say, no. They haven't made big bullets obsolete. I think a more applicable question would be "have expanding bullets finally made smaller calibers a viable choice for self defense?"

And to that, I will say, generally, yes. Today, with the "good stuff".

Every JHP bullet in the world isn't equal. The best are really good today, but that wasn't always the case. Probably a number of you here today weren't shooting pistols in the 70s, when Lee Jurras and his company Super Vel proved that the light (for caliber) JHP bullet moving fast (again, for caliber) COULD work.

I began shooting pistols when "duty caliber" factory ammo essentially came in two flavors, FMJ bullets for semi autos and lead bullets for revolvers. I remember articles expounding on how the .38 Special was actually superior to the 9mm Luger, because the lead bullet of the .38 would actually, sometimes, expand a bit. 9mm FMJ never did.

Some of us remember the pre-Internet, pre-JHP, pre-Glock, pre-wondernine era. We remember what the 9mm was (and still is when you use FMJ) and are amazed and impressed by what the 9mm JHP has become today. Much, much better, but not yet "perfection", unless you buy Austrian Kool-Aid.

The primary reason that the 9mm is the organizational caliber of choice isn't how well it works, as a cartridge, its because of how well it works in modern pistols, used to arm groups of people. People who you aren't going to train to the maximum level possible, only the needed level to meet your qualification standards. NO group, LEO or military has ever trained its members any more than what was considered the necessary minimum standards.

What caliber (and what gun) that the military and the police use is NOT chosen by the "foot soldiers". It is often a more political than a practical matter, and sometimes, it is entirely a political matter.

The US military didn't "abandon" the .45 caliber because of any practical reason, replacing the .45 in the 1980s was a political matter. We made a deal, back in the 50s, with NATO. We were pushing NATO to adopt our new rifle round (7.62x51mm), and they didn't want to. (expense was the usually cited reason), so, we made a deal, if they would adopt our rifle round as the new NATO standard, we would, when the time came to replace our 1911A1s, the replacement would be in "their" 9mm caliber. NATO agreed, but were not happy campers about what followed.

Because, #1, barely a handful of years later, (and another political decision) we adopted the 5.56mm round. And, #2, it took us nearly 30 years after that deal was made to decide to replace our aging inventory of 1911A1s.

They did adopt our 7.62 and decades later, we did keep our end of the bargain, adopting their 9mm as our military round.

Do note that while there were a handful of exceptions, our LEOs didn't adopt the 9mm round until AFTER it was adopted by the military. Our Police didn't give up their revolvers (by and large) for 9mm semis, until after it became our primary military pistol round. It wasn't wondernines, all by themselves, and it certainly wasn't the stellar performance of the 9mm round at the time (because at the time general 9mm performance wasn't as good as it has become today), it was because of the cost/benefits of using the same round as the federal government. YES, there were other factors, which assisted in making the decision, but I think the biggest factor was simply that the military and Federal police forces had switched to the 9mm.

Also note that, again, with a few exceptions, nobody had spent much effort trying to improve the performance of the 9mm, UNTIL about the time it was adopted by our military and police. For the first 70 some odd years of its use, very little was done to improve the terminal effectiveness of the 9mm Luger.

I do believe that the advances in bullet performance we have today came about only because of the fact that we (those in the position to make the decision) decided on the 9mm, and because of that, because we were going to use the 9mm, no matter what, we put serious effort into making it perform acceptably as a personal defense round.

AND, even so, those advances don't apply to our military, who are bound by the rules to use FMJ ammo, anyway.
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:09 PM   #56
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I say, no. They haven't made big bullets obsolete. I think a more applicable question would be "have expanding bullets finally made smaller calibers a viable choice for self defense?"
Perfect. Exactly right.

I was around when jurras was selling super vel. The big gun aficionados these days rarely have anything good to say about his philosophy.

The 9mm has been loaded as a hollow point,if I remember, since the fifties or so, but it was ridiculous. The cup and core technique was used, but the entire jacket was intact and a tiny hole was formed while swaging. The jacket was heavy. the hydraulic chamber, if that's a good word, was miniscule. The profile was round and tapered. Expansion would have been nearly impossible. At the time that we were using half jacketed hollow points in the .38, we were using things in the nine that were hopeless.

The old 9mm hp were totally wrong and didn't do squat. This generation of engineered projectiles are brilliant. Back then we had hp rounds available as windows dressing. I don't know when the designs began to improve, but the skiving on the silvertip is the first step that I can remember. It was the first effort to control and support a mushroom.
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:20 PM   #57
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It's kind of interesting to follow the progression. We started out with a great round and pistol, the .45, but used police revolvers. As time passed we realised that the 9mm was a "better" idea. Time passed, and people realized that it wasn't "better". In fact, it was adequate for the purpose, taken in combination with the pistol, but the available ammunition wasn't great.

It took almost a century to make a truly effective round, whereas the police revolver hp round was just dandy right out of the door.
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:25 PM   #58
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I just went back and read the June 1990 American Rifleman article by Charles Petty summarizing the FBI's ammo tests. A few interesting quotes from the article:

“All other things aside, Miami was an ammunition failure” - John Hall chief of FBI's Firearms Training Unit (FTU).

“There was no meaningful ammunition testing prior to 1988” - Urey Patrick, assistant chief of the FBI's FTU.

“We don't shoot naked people very often” - Urey Patrick.

Regarding the results showing that "none of the 9mm loads came close to the performance of the 10 mm and .45", Urey Patrick said: “We expected that there would be a gap, but we didn't expect it to be so large”.

“Expansion, when it occurs , is a nice bonus, but you can't depend on it for incapacitation” - Urey Patrick.

“Based on the results of our tests, I don't care what you use as long as it starts with a '4.' “

That article was written 27 years ago when the FBI adopted the 10 mm. That was the beginning of a major change in handgun bullet development and testing. As far as cartridges, the 9 mm, perhaps, has been the biggest benefactor.

Last edited by BBarn; November 15, 2017 at 05:04 AM. Reason: Removed some quotes to be more compliant with TFL copyright policy.
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Old November 14, 2017, 09:50 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BBarn View Post
That article was written 27 years ago when the FBI adopted the 10 mm. That was the beginning of a major change in handgun bullet development and testing. As far as cartridges, the 9 mm, perhaps, has been the biggest benefactor.

Your entire post was very interesting, but I only quoted the bottom of it so as not to make an extremely long quoted insert.

My question to your entire post would be, "great, but what does that make of the 9mm today?"

The 9mm has been the biggest benefactor, do we really still want a 45?
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Old November 14, 2017, 10:47 PM   #60
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In 1990 the 9 mm performed poorly in the FBI tests. Today it performs very well. In the 1990s many agencies replaced their 9s with 40s. Now many agencies have replaced their 40s with 9s. And it's similar with individuals.

In the 90s I got rid of my 9 and bought a 40. Now I have a 9 and no 40. But I'm mostly in the stands watching. I don't carry, and shoot mostly single action revolvers. In autoloaders, I prefer the 1911 in 45 Auto.

I'm not sure what I would choose to carry. But I don't think I would carry a 1911, at least not cocked and locked.
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Old November 15, 2017, 05:30 AM   #61
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but the entire jacket was intact and a tiny hole was formed while swaging. The jacket was heavy.
I have some original CDM .44 AMP ammo with bullets like that! 240gr, and on the mild side for the caliber, only clocking a bit over 1200fps...

Won't expand on anything, but will punch through some impressive thickness of steel. Like the rear differential of a 65 Ford Galaxy. Fired into the rear face of the differential, it almost exited the front of the housing!

I do remember the factory JHPs of yesteryear! They were awesome! Worked every bit as good as full metal jacket ammo!!!

Then they got improved, and only worked as good as FMJ part of the time, the rest of the time they would open up really well, in clothes, on a watch, or a lighter or belt buckle, before entering a body...and usually stopping short of the vitals if they made it into the body...

Bullets for handloading were a better, at least by the early 70s. I remember loading some Hornady 115 JHP in my Dad's .38 Super (we didn't have a 9mm in the house, ), and while I never shot a person with any of them, I did shoot some other things and they worked fairly well. They had about a 1/4' or so exposed lead "ring" above the jacket around the hollow point, and while expansion wasn't huge, there was some...

And then there came the Speer 200gr "flying ashtray" .45 slug. Damn if that wasn't the bee's knees, hehehe...

Especially if you pushed it hard, like 1000fps. A little beyond what the book listed, even in those days, but you could do it, and it was impressive.

Murphy is still out there, and everything can fail, including the "best" JHP ammo (in any caliber). So, my "default setting" is in my signature line...
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Old November 15, 2017, 10:58 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
They said that in 1985, too. After 1986, they STOPPED staying that for a number of years. Now, they are saying it, again.

Note that the 9mm, which failed in the Miami shootout met every spec the FBI had at the time, including gel test penetration.

And, it still got the blame for "failing".

As far as I'm concerned, the FBI's recommendation(s) mean nothing to me, and should be looked at carefully by any and everyone outside the FBI, to see how well they apply to what you are doing, not just blindly adopted on faith because the FBI is "infallible". They aren't.
The 9mm failed because the agents were incapable of placing the shots effectively.
The caliber/ammunition was the scapegoat to take the blame for insufficient training and ineffective tactics.
Near misses and peripheral hits with a .500 S&W wouldn't wouldn't have scared the bad guys to death either.
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Old November 15, 2017, 11:16 AM   #63
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Do note that while there were a handful of exceptions, our LEOs didn't adopt the 9mm round until AFTER it was adopted by the military.
Many So Cal LE agencies were carrying the Model 59 long before the military switch. It had a mediocre rap sheet at best, and I'm being generous here.

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Old November 15, 2017, 11:16 AM   #64
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The 9mm failed because the agents were incapable of placing the shots effectively.
The caliber/ammunition was the scapegoat to take the blame for insufficient training and ineffective tactics.
Yup, what should have been a learning moment became a blame game on the only thing they could. Consider that the fight was finally stopped by a 38 Special 158 grain LSCWCHP fired from a snubby, properly placed. the 9mm load totally outclassed it.
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Old November 15, 2017, 11:24 AM   #65
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Quote:
The 9mm failed because the agents were incapable of placing the shots effectively.
And you think you could've done better?

The outcome would have been different had the FBI has asked Miami PD to do a felony car stop. Miami PD probably had a hundred cops on duty and a helicopter, not to mention that they have far more experience with felony car stops.

The FBI's biggest mistake was cops set themselves up for failure by not controlling when they should have initiated a felony car stop, by not asking Miami PD to do the felony car stop, and not involving Miami PD before its cops went hunting the bad guys.

That tragic incident could have been avoided; its outcome was more a product of poor decisions than weapons.

Cops will live if the can immediately gain control and retain it.
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Old November 15, 2017, 11:32 AM   #66
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Nanuk,

Those cops weren't thinking proper shot placement. They were thinking survival.

Proper shot placement is lexicon of fools. Survival is the objective of professionals.

When bullets are headin' your way, are you gonna hop into a ridiculous Weaver stance, get your arms in a perfect Isosceles triangle, properly align sights for precise shot placement? That how you'd wind up supine on a fiberglass pathologst's table, while he's sawing your corpse open, and a tag affixed to you toe is dancing to fan oscillation.

If you find yourself with bullets headin' your way, my advise is to get the hell outta a bad guy's sight picture yesterday, unless, of course, you're tired of bill payin'. Then stand there and take rounds. That's what a dead fool would do.
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Old November 15, 2017, 12:21 PM   #67
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No

My 44 and 45 Colt hard cast loads at 1000fps penetrate in feet. The SWC design is very disruptive and doesn't need to expand to be very effective. Mine have shot vertically through a 150# Hog and the same 45 load went through a Black Bear at 40 yards, six times, leaving fist sized holes in the back (Brian Pearce). I don't use them for personal defense, but I do use an ACP with 185gr Golden Saber.
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Old November 15, 2017, 12:36 PM   #68
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Proper shot placement is lexicon of fools. Survival is the objective of professionals.
No, proper shot placement is the objective of trained professionals and citizens alike. That is what determines surviving the encounter.

The idea that training to shoot properly is how one ends up dead is nonsense. Yes, being able to perform under fire requires more than mastering the fundamentals of grip, stance and sight picture. Yes, there are many variables in a deadly encounter and success doesn't always go to the best trained. And yes, moving and taking cover when under fire is good practice Being able to hit your target center mass most often gives the best chance of stopping the threat when hiding or running isn't enough. To dismiss talk of "shot placement" as foolish seems foolish to me...
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Old November 15, 2017, 01:34 PM   #69
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^ Couldn't agree more. Shot placement is what stops fights and allows you to survive, not marginal differences between handgun cartridges. Is shot placement easy in an actual fight? Absolutely not, but landing non critical hits keeps the fight going long enough for you to get killed in the process.

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/
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Old November 15, 2017, 06:52 PM   #70
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1. Shot placement
2. Capacity Capacity Capacity
3. Caliber
4. Etc.
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Old Yesterday, 12:11 AM   #71
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And you think you could've done better?
That's not the point. Even if nobody here could do better, shot placement issues still aren't going to be solved with a caliber change.
Quote:
Those cops weren't thinking proper shot placement. They were thinking survival.
When survival is the uppermost issue in one's mind (as it likely is in any self-defense situation) it's probable that the defender is not thinking about much of anything else.

At that time, one had better have trained to the point of being able to make good hits in spite of not consciously thinking about shot placement.

Shot placement is what you think about in training. The skills you acquire from training are what help you survive when all you can think about is survival.
Quote:
Proper shot placement is lexicon of fools. Survival is the objective of professionals.
Catchy but incorrect.

Survival is the objective of anyone in a self-defense situation regardless of whether they're professionals or amateurs.

Shot placement is how you survive a gunfight against determined opponents. Not necessarily by "thinking" about it (although there are cases where survivors have recalled consciously focusing on their sight alignment) but because you have trained to perform even when you can't dedicate conscious thought to things like trigger press and sight alignment.

https://www.trainingindustry.com/wik...of-competence/

1. Unconscious Incompetence (Incompetent and unaware of the need for training)
2. Conscious Incompetence (Incompetent but aware of the need for skills development)
3. Conscious Competence (Able to perform competently when consciously concentrating at the task at hand)
4. Unconscious Competence (Able to perform competently even when severely distracted or heavily stressed.)
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Old Yesterday, 02:18 AM   #72
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I’ve done force on force in the past and hope to do more next year. In most of that I never remember seeing a front sight, except one time when I remember vividly seeing a front sight. In the scenario an assailant was executing hostages (you were placed into the scenario with no prior knowledge and had been brought in with a bag over your head). I had to decide when to engage from concealment. After I made my choice the hostage taker and I shot it out at maybe 20 ft, maybe more like 15 ft. Both of us fired multiple times. The assailant went down and pulled a hostage with him while I had backed away to create distance and feebly try to get to cover. At this point I had fired completely reflexively and thought I had shot him and that he had gone down from hits. As I approached to assess his condition he started to lean up and bring his pistol to bear. He was covered mostly by the hostage and the only target truly available was his head. I fired one shot right in between his eyes. I distinctly remember seeing a front sight and making the trigger press. The entire scenario was a matter of seconds. After talking to the instructor he had fallen as he had gotten tripped up with the hostage and then had played possum when he hit the ground. If my shot placement on approach had failed I would have been shot and in real life dead.

What I learned after 8 hrs of force on force that day is in as close to reality as I could get you often miss and it’s often hard even with UTM to know when you got hits on your target. Having more capacity and more shot opportunities was vital as even reloads don’t always go like you’d hope. Shot placement as the day wore on was critical. The longer the fights went the worse the shooters looked afterwards both in exhaustion and hits. In cases where it's not just you and the assailant then missed hits often meant more casualties from people in the area. In many cases even the winner would have needed immediate medical care. The people that had the skills to where they could implement their training without deliberate thought were those that did well.


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Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM   #73
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This whole discussion reminds me of one my wife and I had the other day...

She worked with clients in the whole county & the powers to be determined that she should have plenty of time to work with everyone, if she would just schedule all the clients by location. "A","B" and "C" - all live in one part of one city, so, she should schedule "A" for 9:00, "B" for 10:00 & "C" for 11:00 on Tuesdays,

Everything was based on - best case scenario.

Then reality set in - when "A" had to work on Tuesdays, "B" liked to sleep in until noon and "C" would forget about the appointment more often than not.

These "caliber wars" - along with all the "studies" and tests and whatever, all at some point boil down to - -best case scenario.
Then along comes a Hollywood shootout, a "sniper" in Dixieland, a Philippians insurrection, an FBI shootout,,,,,etc,etc,etc...to throw cold water on things - - and - - voila' - the caliber increases! Imagine that!

IMSHO -the 9mm is popular now for the same reason the ,357 magnum won out over the .41 magnum & the ,44 magnum.
Both the .41 and the .44 require - a good sized gun & they are just over the edge of what most people can shoot.

The 9mm is tame compared to the .45 acp, the .40 S&W and the 10 mm.
Thats all.
It's what the majority of people can handle

So - "facts" and "statistics" are manufactured or tailored to paint it in the best possible light.
& it will stay there right up until the next **failure**....
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Old Yesterday, 09:22 AM   #74
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Only minutes ago I posted this in another location.

Quote:
Choose your facts carefully and don't let them interfere with all of those things that you have to believe in in order to remain comfortable with your own thoughts.
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 AM   #75
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Quote:
Nanuk,

Those cops weren't thinking proper shot placement. They were thinking survival.

Proper shot placement is lexicon of fools. Survival is the objective of professionals.

When bullets are headin' your way, are you gonna hop into a ridiculous Weaver stance, get your arms in a perfect Isosceles triangle, properly align sights for precise shot placement? That how you'd wind up supine on a fiberglass pathologst's table, while he's sawing your corpse open, and a tag affixed to you toe is dancing to fan oscillation.

If you find yourself with bullets headin' your way, my advise is to get the hell outta a bad guy's sight picture yesterday, unless, of course, you're tired of bill payin'. Then stand there and take rounds. That's what a dead fool would do.
Well,

I have been LE/Military for close to 40 years and a competitive shooter before that. I was a trainer as well. I think I have a pretty good idea how to win and survive on the two way range.
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