Comparing Bullseye vs Win231 - Page 2

robhic · January 10, 2018, 05:35 PM

Maybe I just started too low but I just came back from shooting some 357 mag 147gr LDEWC over 3.3gr of 231. Shot and cycled but these felt less powerful than the .38spl I also fired. .38 +P was expectedly hotter (store bought rounds) than both but I felt I was in a burning house from all the SMOKE before the fans (indoor range) cleared the air

.

I couldn't see for a few seconds due to smoke. More smoke than some weak 45 Colt loads I shot a few weeks ago. Just say "NO!" to 3.3gr of 231 in 357 loads!!!

LBussy · January 11, 2018, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robhic

Maybe I just started too low but I just came back from shooting some 357 mag 147gr LDEWC over 3.3gr of 231. Shot and cycled but these felt less powerful than the .38spl I also fired. .38 +P was expectedly hotter (store bought rounds) than both but I felt I was in a burning house from all the SMOKE before the fans (indoor range) cleared the air

.

I couldn't see for a few seconds due to smoke. More smoke than some weak 45 Colt loads I shot a few weeks ago. Just say "NO!" to 3.3gr of 231 in 357 loads!!!

I could be all wet here but when I fire my wadcutters I use .38 Spl brass. The same loads in .357 brass seemed to be more anemic and smoke more.

USSR · January 11, 2018, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Maybe I just started too low but I just came back from shooting some 357 mag 147gr LDEWC over 3.3gr of 231. Shot and cycled but these felt less powerful than the .38spl I also fired. .38 +P was expectedly hotter (store bought rounds) than both but I felt I was in a burning house from all the SMOKE before the fans (indoor range) cleared the air .

I couldn't see for a few seconds due to smoke. More smoke than some weak 45 Colt loads I shot a few weeks ago. Just say "NO!" to 3.3gr of 231 in 357 loads!!!

Robert,

A 3.3gr load of W231 behind a DEWC is a VERY low charge weight when in a .38 Special case. Put it in a .357 Mag case and it is MUCH too low. That's why you are getting all the smoke. You need to add at least another half a grain of powder.

Don

robhic · January 11, 2018, 10:28 AM

Quote:

A 3.3gr load of W231 behind a DEWC is a VERY low charge weight when in a .38 Special case. Put it in a .357 Mag case and it is MUCH too low. That's why you are getting all the smoke. You need to add at least another half a grain of powder.

The 3.3gr W231 load WAS in the 357. I had made some .38 and also brought some .38+P factory loads (more for case harvesting...) and they were the hottest as one would expect. My .38spl hand loads were better using AA#2. But the 357 158gr LWC were in 357.

I'm gonna make some more and use Bullseye or something faster to see if I can get it faster and less smoky. I think I'm gonna use some 125gr plated rounds this time....

USSR · January 11, 2018, 11:35 AM

Quote:
A 3.3gr load of W231 behind a DEWC is a VERY low charge weight when in a .38 Special case. Put it in a .357 Mag case and it is MUCH too low. That's why you are getting all the smoke. You need to add at least another half a grain of powder.

Quote:

The 3.3gr W231 load WAS in the 357. I had made some .38 and also brought some .38+P factory loads (more for case harvesting...) and they were the hottest as one would expect. My .38spl hand loads were better using AA#2. But the 357 158gr LWC were in 357.

I'm gonna make some more and use Bullseye or something faster to see if I can get it faster and less smoky. I think I'm gonna use some 125gr plated rounds this time....

Yes, I understand that the 3.3gr W231 load was fired in .357 Mag brass. I was simply saying that the charge weight is too low for .38 Special brass, so it is REALLY too low for .357 Mag brass. Where are you getting your load data from?

Don

kmw1954 · January 11, 2018, 11:53 AM

I have used Bullseye in the past using a 4" S&W Model 19 with 357 cases loaded with Speer 148gr LWC and Speer 158gr LSWC over light charges of Bullseye that were taken from the Speer #10 loading manual. Both these loads were very accurate but not necessarily clean. I no longer have that gun as that was back in the 1980's before this wonderful internet.

Today I shoot 9mm and 380 auto pistols. The powder I use varies as I'm still experimenting but so far Hodgdon HP-38/W231 is at the top of the list. Followed by Ramshot Silhouette. Both meter very reliably and are burning very clean. For some unknown reason Alliant powder seems to be hard to find locally. Nobody seems to stock it.

As to Burn Rate Charts, I have 3 of them and not one is anywhere near close to the other as far as Orders go. I quite looking at them.

Jim Watson · January 11, 2018, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Yes, I understand that the 3.3gr W231 load was fired in .357 Mag brass. I was simply saying that the charge weight is too low for .38 Special brass, so it is REALLY too low for .357 Mag brass. Where are you getting your load data from?

Don

So I guess that makes me wrong for shooting several barge loads of .38 wadcutters with 3.2 gr W231. Like the Speer book told me to do. But they were hollowbase.

USSR · January 11, 2018, 01:33 PM

Jim,

If they shoot well for you, that's all that matters. 3.0gr will net you about 650fps and 3.3gr gets you a little over 700fps. Personally, I would use about 3.5gr in a .38 case and about 3.8gr in a .357 case.

Don

David R · January 11, 2018, 04:10 PM

730 FPS is the " target". Velocity for HBWC. Seems to work the same for button nose wadcutters.

2.7 Bullseye for a HBWC
2.9 Bullseye for a BNWC
Gets me 730 fps in my 4" 38.

Never tried 231

David

robhic · January 11, 2018, 05:16 PM

USSR

Quote:

Yes, I understand that the 3.3gr W231 load was fired in .357 Mag brass. I was simply saying that the charge weight is too low for .38 Special brass, so it is REALLY too low for .357 Mag brass. Where are you getting your load data from?

I got that data from one of the "loadbooks" I have. This was for .357 Magnum only. The .38spl was from some load manual for +P loads that came along with an order of powder. I agree they were too low. I have data for Bullseye or Titegroup and 125gr. plated RN bullets. Gonna try those this weekend.

USSR · January 11, 2018, 06:18 PM

Here's a good article written by Ed Harris regarding wadcutters: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...adcutterQA.htm. He states with the current Alliant Bullseye powder you need 3.0 - 3.2 grains to reach the same velocity as the classic 2.7 - 2.8 grains of Hercules Bullseye. Don't know, but come the Spring I will be running loads across my chronograph and will find out.

Don

robhic · January 12, 2018, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Here's a good article written by Ed Harris regarding wadcutters: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...adcutterQA.htm.

Man, that's a whole lotta 'stuff' about such a seemingly plain vanilla bullet! I never knew loading a simple LWC could have so much to be aware of. Thanks, that was interesting!

USSR · January 12, 2018, 11:42 AM

Yeah, that's a lotta stuff that I will be testing when the weather breaks. In addition to a chronograph, I've got a Ransom Rest that I will be putting to use to find the most accurate HBWC load out of my S&W Model 14.

Jeffm004 · January 15, 2018, 07:05 AM

FWIW. I switched from 231 to Bullseye during the great shortage. I find Bullseye notably more accurate in 9mm. When the BE is gone I will retry 231 and see if it was die fussing, or the load. (124 plated/4.2 BE). Good luck.

Jeffm004 · January 15, 2018, 08:35 AM

FWIW. I switched from 231 to Bullseye during the great shortage. I find Bullseye notably more accurate in 9mm. When the BE is gone I will retry 231 and see if it was die fussing, or the load. (124 plated/4.2 BE). Good luck.

m&p45acp10+1 · January 15, 2018, 09:49 AM

I happen to like both. Both are fine grain and meter like water. My preference is 231 over BE. Though if all I can get is BE I would not be unhappy about it. For .38 Special and .44 Special target loads I use Trail Boss. Nothing burns cleaner for target loads.

rodfac · January 17, 2018, 08:00 PM

I used Bullseye for most all of my target loads from the mid-60's til I ran out one time and tried a single pound of Win 231 on a trial basis...mid-90's as I recall and have used it ever since. I load for all the major hand gun cartridges ( .380, .38 Super, 9mm, .40 S&W, .41 Magnum, .44 Spl. & Magnum, and .45 ACP & AR) as well as some of the more obscure: .455 Webley, .32 Short, and .38-40 to name a few.

231 is Winchester's answer to Bullseye and is better suited for all of my mild to medium loads. It runs much easier through my Dillon and RCBS Uniflow measures as an added benefit. If I were forced to choose a single handgun powder and didn't need to push the upper velocity limits, Win231 would be the choice.

Even in the bigger cases: .45 Colt, .44 Special and Magnum, .44 & .38-40, it's produced accurate loads, ie. 2" or less at 25 yds from a rested position. It's every bit as tolerant of large volume cases and positioning as Bullseye ever was, and my Extreme Spreads prove it.

Best Regards, Rod

kmw1954 · January 17, 2018, 09:52 PM

rodfac I would like to ask what you are loading the 380 at with the 231. I have tried the 380 with a 100gr bullet and HP-38 without much success. Love it in my 9mm with a number of other weight bullets.

January 10, 2018, 05:35 PM	#26
robhic Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2016 Location: Outside of New Orleans, LA. Posts: 313	Maybe I just started too low but I just came back from shooting some 357 mag 147gr LDEWC over 3.3gr of 231. Shot and cycled but these felt less powerful than the .38spl I also fired. .38 +P was expectedly hotter (store bought rounds) than both but I felt I was in a burning house from all the SMOKE before the fans (indoor range) cleared the air . I couldn't see for a few seconds due to smoke. More smoke than some weak 45 Colt loads I shot a few weeks ago. Just say "NO!" to 3.3gr of 231 in 357 loads!!! __________________ - Robert

January 11, 2018, 01:33 PM	#33
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Jim, If they shoot well for you, that's all that matters. 3.0gr will net you about 650fps and 3.3gr gets you a little over 700fps. Personally, I would use about 3.5gr in a .38 case and about 3.8gr in a .357 case. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 11, 2018, 04:10 PM	#34
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	730 FPS is the " target". Velocity for HBWC. Seems to work the same for button nose wadcutters. 2.7 Bullseye for a HBWC 2.9 Bullseye for a BNWC Gets me 730 fps in my 4" 38. Never tried 231 David Last edited by David R; January 11, 2018 at 05:15 PM.

January 11, 2018, 06:18 PM	#36
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Here's a good article written by Ed Harris regarding wadcutters: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...adcutterQA.htm. He states with the current Alliant Bullseye powder you need 3.0 - 3.2 grains to reach the same velocity as the classic 2.7 - 2.8 grains of Hercules Bullseye. Don't know, but come the Spring I will be running loads across my chronograph and will find out. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 12, 2018, 11:42 AM	#38
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Yeah, that's a lotta stuff that I will be testing when the weather breaks. In addition to a chronograph, I've got a Ransom Rest that I will be putting to use to find the most accurate HBWC load out of my S&W Model 14. __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 11, 2018, 11:53 AM	#31
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	I have used Bullseye in the past using a 4" S&W Model 19 with 357 cases loaded with Speer 148gr LWC and Speer 158gr LSWC over light charges of Bullseye that were taken from the Speer #10 loading manual. Both these loads were very accurate but not necessarily clean. I no longer have that gun as that was back in the 1980's before this wonderful internet. Today I shoot 9mm and 380 auto pistols. The powder I use varies as I'm still experimenting but so far Hodgdon HP-38/W231 is at the top of the list. Followed by Ramshot Silhouette. Both meter very reliably and are burning very clean. For some unknown reason Alliant powder seems to be hard to find locally. Nobody seems to stock it. As to Burn Rate Charts, I have 3 of them and not one is anywhere near close to the other as far as Orders go. I quite looking at them.

January 15, 2018, 07:05 AM	#39
Jeffm004 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 255	FWIW. I switched from 231 to Bullseye during the great shortage. I find Bullseye notably more accurate in 9mm. When the BE is gone I will retry 231 and see if it was die fussing, or the load. (124 plated/4.2 BE). Good luck.

January 15, 2018, 08:35 AM	#40
Jeffm004 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 255	FWIW. I switched from 231 to Bullseye during the great shortage. I find Bullseye notably more accurate in 9mm. When the BE is gone I will retry 231 and see if it was die fussing, or the load. (124 plated/4.2 BE). Good luck.

January 15, 2018, 09:49 AM	#41
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I happen to like both. Both are fine grain and meter like water. My preference is 231 over BE. Though if all I can get is BE I would not be unhappy about it. For .38 Special and .44 Special target loads I use Trail Boss. Nothing burns cleaner for target loads. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

January 17, 2018, 08:00 PM	#42
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	I used Bullseye for most all of my target loads from the mid-60's til I ran out one time and tried a single pound of Win 231 on a trial basis...mid-90's as I recall and have used it ever since. I load for all the major hand gun cartridges ( .380, .38 Super, 9mm, .40 S&W, .41 Magnum, .44 Spl. & Magnum, and .45 ACP & AR) as well as some of the more obscure: .455 Webley, .32 Short, and .38-40 to name a few. 231 is Winchester's answer to Bullseye and is better suited for all of my mild to medium loads. It runs much easier through my Dillon and RCBS Uniflow measures as an added benefit. If I were forced to choose a single handgun powder and didn't need to push the upper velocity limits, Win231 would be the choice. Even in the bigger cases: .45 Colt, .44 Special and Magnum, .44 & .38-40, it's produced accurate loads, ie. 2" or less at 25 yds from a rested position. It's every bit as tolerant of large volume cases and positioning as Bullseye ever was, and my Extreme Spreads prove it. Best Regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

January 17, 2018, 09:52 PM	#43
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	rodfac I would like to ask what you are loading the 380 at with the 231. I have tried the 380 with a 100gr bullet and HP-38 without much success. Love it in my 9mm with a number of other weight bullets.

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