Gun goes off by itself - Page 2

LaserSpot · December 30, 2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

If the pistol went off without anyone touching it,the gun would not have cycled and loaded a new round.

The static electricity is BS, so are my guesses, but there's no reason why it wouldn't load a new round. This is a steel framed 1911, not a plastic Glock; it has enough mass in the frame for recoil to work against, especially if he had hot ammo and/or a weak spring.

rbernie · December 31, 2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

it has enough mass in the frame for recoil to work against, especially if he had hot ammo and/or a weak spring.

With nothing holding the frame in place, it'd just convert the recoil impulse into rotation and the pistol would spin in place. There is no way the slide would travel far enough to the rear to properly eject the spent round and pick up a new one.

LaserSpot · December 31, 2009, 08:52 AM

Nope, this is a problem with Glocks, not 1911's; the frame has plenty of inertia to reload, even if is does spin a little.

In this video, he shoots with only trigger finger and thumb, letting the gun rotate as much as possible.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU

Both 1911's work perfectly.
The other guns work, but fail to lock back on the last round.
The Glock malfunctions every time.

oldman1946 · December 31, 2009, 09:26 AM

First, let me say that some here are way off base.

1. The discharge of the gun will automatically chamber a new round. This is the only time this has ever happened to me. But once the gun went off, a new round went into the chamber just as it would if the trigger had been pulled. With more rounds in the mag, it is a natural event. So the 1911 did as it was designed.

2. There are powder burns on the nightstand. Yet the photos are not close ups and it has been polished many times over the years since this took place back in the late 70's or early 80's but some powder burns are still visible.

3. The reason there are no photos of the casing and primer is this took place years ago and I did not document the casing as I would had it beena working crime or accident scene. Additionally, the trooper was head of the SWAT team at that time. He took the casing to the crime lab for examination. I never saw it again.

4. This was a reloaded bullet. I do not remember who, if I ever knew, who reloaded it. Some individual or even a company may have done such. I can safely say I have not owned any reloaded ammo since then.

5. Stuff happens. Some times we cannot rationally explain it. I have seen people killed in very low speed auto accidents and seen people walk away from high speed crashes. I have worked cases where someone was shot in a non vital area by a BB gun and died within a few hours. I had a case back about 1986 where a man was shot in the face with a .357 mag from 18 inches and was back working in a couple weeks. I often admit in court that the ergonomics or such is not able to be known in some instances.

thallub · December 31, 2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

To recap: guns do not "go off by themselves".

Exactly. This one is up there with: "The car suddenly accelerated striking three pedestrians."

Microgunner · December 31, 2009, 09:44 AM

Virtually everyone who has an accidental firearms discharge due to complacency or negligence without witnesses claims "it went off by itself". It's human nature to avoid being labeled an idiot and possibly risk prosecution, expulsion, eviction or dismissal.

Tamara · December 31, 2009, 09:48 AM

I've heard people tell their spouses some whoppers to explain the hole in the wall, but this one takes the cake.

Pbearperry · December 31, 2009, 09:58 AM

It's George Bush's fault.

MrBorland · December 31, 2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Gun goes off by itself

How is this possible?

The way I read the LaserSpot's first post was that he (she?) wasn't so much asking whether we thought the discharge was truly accidental, but what possible mechanism might've caused an AD, assuming it was an AD.

If it was a true AD, it was a one in a million, IMO. Even if the static or heat theories were theoretically correct, it'd be damned difficult to prove by reproducing it in a controlled environment. And a negative experimental result would tell you nothing, since there's only 1 way to precisely reproduce the situation, and millions of ways to set even 1 variable wrong.

Tamara · December 31, 2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBorland

...but what possible mechanism might've caused an AD...

The key detail is right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman1946

It was not cocked but had a round in the chamber.

What percentage of 1911 ND's come from lowering the hammer with a live round in the chamber sooo carefully when... slip... oops... *BANG!*

"I don't know, honey! It just went off by itself! I wasn't even touching it!"

RULE #3 exists for a reason.

MrBorland · December 31, 2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

lowering the hammer with a live round in the chamber sooo carefully when... slip... oops... *BANG!*

That's an ND.

And while I think it's obviously much more likely it was an ND, I understood the OP to only be asking if there was any possible way it could've been an honest-to-goodness AD.

Tamara · December 31, 2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBorland

And while I think it's obviously much more likely it was an ND, I understood the OP to only be asking if there was any possible way it could've been an honest-to-goodness AD.

I don't think so. I've already pointed some gunsmith friends, including one guy who builds $2k+ 1911s for a living, at this page for the yuks. The consensus is universal thus far.

LaserSpot · December 31, 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

The way I read the LaserSpot's first post was that he (she?) wasn't so much asking whether we thought the discharge was truly accidental, but what possible mechanism might've caused an AD, assuming it was an AD.

Yes, and I was looking for any explaination that might apply to this other incident:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=3858656

and it's MrLaserSpot to you
Dylan

rdmallory · December 31, 2009, 12:24 PM

I just went through all the .223 rounds again and I can find no high primers. This is anything sticking past the end of the case. They are all mixed brand brass so each brand looks a little different in the way the primer is seated.

I did find two with missing primers so I ruled them out as what burnt my finger.
Now I have it down to the other 1998. This is what I know for sure.

1. It went off when I had my finger over the end removing it from the priming tool.

2. None of the other primers in the tray went off. (so the RCBS primer guard system works)

3. The primers are PMC (made in Russia)

4. The primer was not set of by being dimpled.

5. It hurt like the dickens.

6. I now keep my finger off the end of the round when removing it from the priming tool.

Dannyl · December 31, 2009, 01:15 PM

HI,
I own a 1911 COLT Series 70 (amongst several other guns) and have been shooting reloads since 91. on average about 600 a month, sometimes more. ( I compete seriously in various disciplines) so I have a bit of exprience both with the 1911 and reloads. After reading the description of the incident, I am sure that something is not being told...

1. a primer that is not fully seated is more likely NOT TO GO OFF when hit by the firing-pin since part of the force will be spent on driving it further into the case.
2. Having served for months at a time in areas where there was a meter-deep snow, and often returning from a FREEZING night into the HEATED shelter of a warm barrack, I never experienced or heard about a bullet sef-firing due to static (nor in any other weather conditions)
3. The writer says that after this he no longer uses reloads; I find it strange that a person who carries reloads in his primary weapon ( I do) will opt so quickly not to use reloads at all.

I think this one is worth of sending it to MYTHSBUSTERS to test for us.

With all due respect to the writer, I am simply not buying this story.

Brgds and HAPPY NEW YEAR to all.

Danny

griz · December 31, 2009, 01:34 PM

Sort of close but more easily explained:

I was shooting a 22 revolver and at the shot the recoil was as if I fired a 38. I stopped, looked at the gun, and opened the cylinder. The live round next to the fired round had also fired. No firing pin mark at all. No damage to the gun since the bullet only had to push past a tiny bit of the frame to get out.

I can see how a rimfire would be more likely to pop like that, but have no idea how a centerfire could do it. Did the gun fire just sitting there or was it as it hit the table?

oldman1946 · December 31, 2009, 02:36 PM

In the event discussed here, I was not near the gun as my wife will attest. I was in the room but several feet away. My wife was in the dressing area of the room even more distant.

The gun went off without anyone or anyhing being near it. The gun fell from the nightstand after discharge and landed on the floor about half way between the nightstand and myself. When I picked i up, the gun was cocked and that would be normal since a round had been fired due to whatever reason.

In my 50+ yrss of firearm use, handling and military serivce, I had never experienced this before and have not since. I did hear of one such incident long ago where a gun discharged of it's own volition and fatally struck a man sleeping in an ajacent bed. The police were never able to learn what caused it as far as I know.

As I said, things sometimes happen for which there is no explanation.

MrBorland · December 31, 2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

First, let me say that some here are way off base.

1. The discharge of the gun will automatically chamber a new round. This is the only time this has ever happened to me. But once the gun went off, a new round went into the chamber just as it would if the trigger had been pulled.

Quote:

1. a primer that is not fully seated is more likely NOT TO GO OFF when hit by the firing-pin since part of the force will be spent on driving it further into the case.

ok, so the primer thing's making me more suspicious:

The hammer was down, and the primer was found to not be seated flush and there was no dimple in the primer. So, if it was a bona fide one-in-a-million AD, the primer would have to have been detonated by some means other than the hammer. Hence the exotic static electricity or heat theories.

That the primer wasn't set flush strongly suggested that somehow (don't ask me how) the round didn't fire at full power; otherwise, the primer would've reset (shooting primer-only rounds from cases with standard-sized flash holes may very well tie up your revolver, for example, since the pressure is enough to push the primer out a bit, but not enough to reset them flush when the brass hits the recoil shield).

But the gun did fire with enough power to rack the slide and chamber another round. That surely would've set the primer flush.

These were reloads, though. Any chance the reloader managed to unknowingly squeeze a large primer into one of these (link below; the one on the left), and under the perfect conditions, it went boom? Yeah, I'm stretching, but you'd have to to explain a one-in-a-billion AD. Otherwise, I'm willing to let it go at...

Quote:

sometimes happen for which there is no explanation.

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/att...-acp-cases.jpg

Skans · December 31, 2009, 02:42 PM

I think it was mentioned in one of the threads that the cartridge was a re-load. It is possible that during the reloading process that some contaminent got in with the powder or on the primer that somehow made it unstable over time. Nitroglycerine has been known to explode for no reason at all - it is highly unstable. Modern gunpowder, also known as "smokeless powder" was first discovered by Alfred Nobel in his experiments using nitroglycerin to gelatinize nitrocellulose (also known as guncotton).

I don't know what chemical(s) could cause modern gunpowder to become unstable, but if it did, I suspect that it could explode for no reason.

LaserSpot · December 31, 2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin
In its pure form, it is a primary contact explosive (physical shock can cause it to explode) and degrades over time to even more unstable forms

Nitroglycerin might be unstable enough to self-detonate. I know it's added to smokeless powder, but it would have to somehow get separated out from the nitrocellulose.

Quote:

But the gun did fire with enough power to rack the slide and chamber another round. That surely would've set the primer flush.

What if the primer wasn't flush because the primer pocket was dirty or messed up somehow?

**JohnKSa** · December 31, 2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

I don't know what chemical(s) could cause modern gunpowder to become unstable, but if it did, I suspect that it could explode for no reason.

If that were true then you can bet your last dime that there would have to be a warning label on every single container of gunpowder sold indicating that you shouldn't mix it or contaminate it with this hypothetical chemical. The idea that someone could accidentally contaminate otherwise normal gunpowder or primers with something that would make them randomly explode at some time in the future would set the firearm world on its ear. Basically every round of ammunition in existence would have to be recalled and destroyed and new rounds issued that were guaranteed not to go off on their own.

Quote:

Nope, this is a problem with Glocks, not 1911's; the frame has plenty of inertia to reload, even if is does spin a little.

Even with a very light hold he's providing much more resistance than would be encountered by a gun lying on a polished wood surface. I'm not saying that particular part of the story is impossible, I just think it's unlikely that a recoil operated handgun would cycle normally without any resistance at all against the frame. I've actually seen people get misfeeds in otherwise reliable 1911 style pistols just as a consequence of shooting onehanded with the weak hand.

It is totally impossible for the gun to have gone off on its own? "Totally impossible" is pretty hard to prove. Would it require several extremely unlikely events for the incident to have occurred as told? Yes.

I can tell you this. Assuming that everything happened just like it was told, a repeat occurrence is not something that anyone ever needs to worry about.

Playboypenguin · December 31, 2009, 03:42 PM

...I am much more inclined to believe this is a fabricated story to explain a misplaced finger in the night created to maintain some dignity than it is a true story. That is something I have seen a whole lot more of than anything like this story suggests.

Usually the most likely explanation is the correct one. I would be willing to bet someone reached over in the night and accidently hit the trigger of their gun on the nightstand and made up a story to save face and to keep out of trouble.

wally626 · December 31, 2009, 04:04 PM

If no one touched it it can not be static electricity, the shock would have to come from somewhere, it is not going to be generated by a gun sitting by itself on a table. Given the amount of steel around the primer and case it seems unlikely that a static charge could even get to the primer. Might be a good Myth-busters experiment. Place a steel 1911 in a clamp at the range, bring a good old fashion nylon rug and some rubber soled shoes. Rub Rub Rub, touch. Cold to hot would not do it or we would have had huge numbers of discharges over the years.

I have no good explanation, even if the wife touched the gun without him noticing it was not cocked and should not have fired from a trigger pull, wife might have touched and shocked it?? The gun may not have been de-cocked and the wife touched the trigger?? Original post does not mention the status of the safety. Electricity can be used to set off primers, but I would like to see it done in practice inside a gun before I believe it.

Tamara · December 31, 2009, 04:04 PM

Sorry, oldman1946, but now you're contradicting yourself.

First you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman1946

I had walked over to the boot rack in the utility room about 20 feet away.

Then you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman1946

The gun fell from the nightstand after discharge and landed on the floor about half way between the nightstand and myself.

It flew ten feet through the air? That would be "halfway between the nightstand" and "the utility room about 20 feet away."

I was born at night, but not last night...

Surely you saved copies of the lab report for such a notable occurrence? Perhaps you could scan them?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wally626

Place a steel 1911 in a clamp at the range, bring a good old fashion nylon rug and some rubber soled shoes. Rub Rub Rub, touch.

No need for any of that. Anyone who's been around heaters for a while has seen some static discharges without any negligent discharges.

I believe that in this case someone's told their cover story so many times that they've started to believe it themselves.

jersey_emt · December 31, 2009, 04:24 PM

Sorry, I'm not buying this.

I don't have a doctorate in physics, but I can't think of any way that this could have happened the way you describe.

December 31, 2009, 09:48 AM	#32
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	I've heard people tell their spouses some whoppers to explain the hole in the wall, but this one takes the cake. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 31, 2009, 12:24 PM	#39
rdmallory Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Deltona FL Posts: 953	.223 BANG I just went through all the .223 rounds again and I can find no high primers. This is anything sticking past the end of the case. They are all mixed brand brass so each brand looks a little different in the way the primer is seated. I did find two with missing primers so I ruled them out as what burnt my finger. Now I have it down to the other 1998. This is what I know for sure. 1. It went off when I had my finger over the end removing it from the priming tool. 2. None of the other primers in the tray went off. (so the RCBS primer guard system works) 3. The primers are PMC (made in Russia) 4. The primer was not set of by being dimpled. 5. It hurt like the dickens. 6. I now keep my finger off the end of the round when removing it from the priming tool.

December 31, 2009, 01:15 PM	#40
Dannyl Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Cape Town - South Africa Posts: 627	Sorry, I am not buying this story HI, I own a 1911 COLT Series 70 (amongst several other guns) and have been shooting reloads since 91. on average about 600 a month, sometimes more. ( I compete seriously in various disciplines) so I have a bit of exprience both with the 1911 and reloads. After reading the description of the incident, I am sure that something is not being told... 1. a primer that is not fully seated is more likely NOT TO GO OFF when hit by the firing-pin since part of the force will be spent on driving it further into the case. 2. Having served for months at a time in areas where there was a meter-deep snow, and often returning from a FREEZING night into the HEATED shelter of a warm barrack, I never experienced or heard about a bullet sef-firing due to static (nor in any other weather conditions) 3. The writer says that after this he no longer uses reloads; I find it strange that a person who carries reloads in his primary weapon ( I do) will opt so quickly not to use reloads at all. I think this one is worth of sending it to MYTHSBUSTERS to test for us. With all due respect to the writer, I am simply not buying this story. Brgds and HAPPY NEW YEAR to all. Danny Last edited by Dannyl; January 1, 2010 at 02:51 AM.

December 31, 2009, 03:42 PM	#47
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	Call me a skeptic if you like, but... ...I am much more inclined to believe this is a fabricated story to explain a misplaced finger in the night created to maintain some dignity than it is a true story. That is something I have seen a whole lot more of than anything like this story suggests. Usually the most likely explanation is the correct one. I would be willing to bet someone reached over in the night and accidently hit the trigger of their gun on the nightstand and made up a story to save face and to keep out of trouble. Last edited by Playboypenguin; December 31, 2009 at 03:48 PM.

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December 31, 2009, 08:52 AM	#28
LaserSpot Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 311	Nope, this is a problem with Glocks, not 1911's; the frame has plenty of inertia to reload, even if is does spin a little. In this video, he shoots with only trigger finger and thumb, letting the gun rotate as much as possible. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU Both 1911's work perfectly. The other guns work, but fail to lock back on the last round. The Glock malfunctions every time.

December 31, 2009, 09:26 AM	#29
oldman1946 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 111	First, let me say that some here are way off base. 1. The discharge of the gun will automatically chamber a new round. This is the only time this has ever happened to me. But once the gun went off, a new round went into the chamber just as it would if the trigger had been pulled. With more rounds in the mag, it is a natural event. So the 1911 did as it was designed. 2. There are powder burns on the nightstand. Yet the photos are not close ups and it has been polished many times over the years since this took place back in the late 70's or early 80's but some powder burns are still visible. 3. The reason there are no photos of the casing and primer is this took place years ago and I did not document the casing as I would had it beena working crime or accident scene. Additionally, the trooper was head of the SWAT team at that time. He took the casing to the crime lab for examination. I never saw it again. 4. This was a reloaded bullet. I do not remember who, if I ever knew, who reloaded it. Some individual or even a company may have done such. I can safely say I have not owned any reloaded ammo since then. 5. Stuff happens. Some times we cannot rationally explain it. I have seen people killed in very low speed auto accidents and seen people walk away from high speed crashes. I have worked cases where someone was shot in a non vital area by a BB gun and died within a few hours. I had a case back about 1986 where a man was shot in the face with a .357 mag from 18 inches and was back working in a couple weeks. I often admit in court that the ergonomics or such is not able to be known in some instances.

December 31, 2009, 09:44 AM	#31
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	Virtually everyone who has an accidental firearms discharge due to complacency or negligence without witnesses claims "it went off by itself". It's human nature to avoid being labeled an idiot and possibly risk prosecution, expulsion, eviction or dismissal.

December 31, 2009, 09:58 AM	#33
Pbearperry Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 283	It's George Bush's fault.

December 31, 2009, 01:34 PM	#41
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	Sort of close but more easily explained: I was shooting a 22 revolver and at the shot the recoil was as if I fired a 38. I stopped, looked at the gun, and opened the cylinder. The live round next to the fired round had also fired. No firing pin mark at all. No damage to the gun since the bullet only had to push past a tiny bit of the frame to get out. I can see how a rimfire would be more likely to pop like that, but have no idea how a centerfire could do it. Did the gun fire just sitting there or was it as it hit the table?

December 31, 2009, 02:36 PM	#42
oldman1946 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 111	In the event discussed here, I was not near the gun as my wife will attest. I was in the room but several feet away. My wife was in the dressing area of the room even more distant. The gun went off without anyone or anyhing being near it. The gun fell from the nightstand after discharge and landed on the floor about half way between the nightstand and myself. When I picked i up, the gun was cocked and that would be normal since a round had been fired due to whatever reason. In my 50+ yrss of firearm use, handling and military serivce, I had never experienced this before and have not since. I did hear of one such incident long ago where a gun discharged of it's own volition and fatally struck a man sleeping in an ajacent bed. The police were never able to learn what caused it as far as I know. As I said, things sometimes happen for which there is no explanation.

December 31, 2009, 02:42 PM	#44
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,210	I think it was mentioned in one of the threads that the cartridge was a re-load. It is possible that during the reloading process that some contaminent got in with the powder or on the primer that somehow made it unstable over time. Nitroglycerine has been known to explode for no reason at all - it is highly unstable. Modern gunpowder, also known as "smokeless powder" was first discovered by Alfred Nobel in his experiments using nitroglycerin to gelatinize nitrocellulose (also known as guncotton). I don't know what chemical(s) could cause modern gunpowder to become unstable, but if it did, I suspect that it could explode for no reason.

December 31, 2009, 04:04 PM	#48
wally626 Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 642	If no one touched it it can not be static electricity, the shock would have to come from somewhere, it is not going to be generated by a gun sitting by itself on a table. Given the amount of steel around the primer and case it seems unlikely that a static charge could even get to the primer. Might be a good Myth-busters experiment. Place a steel 1911 in a clamp at the range, bring a good old fashion nylon rug and some rubber soled shoes. Rub Rub Rub, touch. Cold to hot would not do it or we would have had huge numbers of discharges over the years. I have no good explanation, even if the wife touched the gun without him noticing it was not cocked and should not have fired from a trigger pull, wife might have touched and shocked it?? The gun may not have been de-cocked and the wife touched the trigger?? Original post does not mention the status of the safety. Electricity can be used to set off primers, but I would like to see it done in practice inside a gun before I believe it.

December 31, 2009, 04:24 PM	#50
jersey_emt Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Posts: 440	Sorry, I'm not buying this. I don't have a doctorate in physics, but I can't think of any way that this could have happened the way you describe.