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July 9, 2017, 07:47 AM | #1 |
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Prohibited person visiting a house with guns?
What are the laws concerning a prohibited person visiting and staying in a house where guns are stored?
Not just for the day but longer term, like say a month. This question was asked on another forum and per usual the answers were contradictory and confusing. Any legal eagles here know?
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July 9, 2017, 08:00 AM | #2 | |||
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Essentially, the guns will need to be stored in a manner which reasonably assures that the felon can't get his hands on one -- e. g., in a locked safe to which he doesn't have the combination or can't get the key.
Let's see what courts have said about what constitutes unlawful possession:
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July 9, 2017, 08:25 AM | #3 |
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Frank I have a question.
What happens if the owner of the guns has no knowledge of the prohibition? I mean it's not like we brand people, Are you aware of any cases under those circumstances? I also wonder what would qualify as secure.. surely a safe would fit.. but what about a gun on the night stand or near bed while you sleep? |
July 9, 2017, 08:56 AM | #4 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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July 9, 2017, 10:16 AM | #5 |
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Thanks for the replies.
It sounds like if a prohibited person is in the house, all firearms must be locked up securely enough to render the home owner completely defenseless, maybe even from the prohibited person. , at least with a gun. Better know who or what is coming to visit. What ever happened to the idea of the western outlaw serving his term and getting his guns back as he walks out of the prison? Did that actually ever happen other than in the movies?
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July 9, 2017, 10:35 AM | #6 |
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While you're awake a gun carried on your person would most likely be considered secure. When a self defense gun is not on your person it can be secured in a quick opening lockbox and thus readily available to authorized persons and secured against access by unauthorized persons.
This isn't the movies, nor is it the past. We live in the world of today, and things are as they are.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
July 11, 2017, 04:28 PM | #7 | |
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Prior to that, a convicted felon could legally possess a firearm, once all time was served and all probation/parole requirements were met. After the GCA 68 became law, convicted felons became prohibited persons, for life, unless their right was restored by a court. (almost never happens) The Lautenberg amendment (passed a couple decades later) extended that lifetime prohibition to anyone convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor.
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July 11, 2017, 09:21 PM | #8 |
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I am not a lawyer, but I live with a prohibited person. Or, more precisely, a prohibited person lives in my house. (B&E, grand larceny, 1998)
The above advice is good. I keep all firearms (even just receivers) locked up, if not on my person. Most things live in the safes. A few projects sometimes find themselves in a Stack-On (locking) cabinet. And there are a few HD firearms that are locked up in hidden, but easily accessible, lock boxes. All keys, except for the one on my person, remain locked in one of the safes. ...Even the one for the Stack-On cabinet with just ammunition and accessories in it. Seems like a pain, but I've got little kids running around all the time, too. So, it's not much different than keeping things away from the kids.
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July 11, 2017, 10:57 PM | #9 |
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I would add a small bit of advice, don't put the keys to the guns on your regular keyring with your house & car keys, if you are someone who, like many, hangs the keys up on a rack open to anyone in the house to grab. That is not considered secure storage under the law.
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January 10, 2018, 08:33 PM | #10 |
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There is no statute that specifically answers this question, and the opinions mentioned above are just that, lower court opinions. The law on this matter is still unsettled.
By the way, I actually contacted one of the nation's leading legal scholars, Eugene Volokh, about this very question, some time ago. |
January 10, 2018, 10:22 PM | #11 | |
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January 11, 2018, 01:25 AM | #12 | |||||||||
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For the purpose of this analysis we'll look only at federal law. To the extent state law is more lax than federal law, federal law will, under the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, Clause 2 of the Constitution) will control. If state law is stricter, it will apply (18 USC 927). The statute we need to concern ourselves with is 18 USC 922(g): So we first consider what constitutes possession for the purposes of this statute. The legal meaning of "possession" is well understood under federal law (see U.S. v. Booth, 111 F.3d 1 (C.A.1 (Mass.), 1997, at 1, emphasis added)): In post 2 I cited two federal court of appeal decisions considering when access without actual physical possession nonetheless constituted possession for the purposes of an 18 USC 922(g) violation. And here's what the courts have said about the interstate commerce issue under 18 USC 922(g):
So if a house guest who is prohibited from possessing a gun has any access to the host's gun, and if the host's gun was ever transported in interstate commerce. it's probable that the house guest could be charged and convicted of a violation of 18 USC 922(g), i. e., a prohibited person unlawfully in possession of a gun. There's also the possibility that the host could be charged and convicted of aiding and abetting that crime. Quote:
Also, since in my view based on your posting history you generally lack credibility, your evidence needs to be more robust than your merely telling us the answers.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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January 12, 2018, 02:12 AM | #13 | |
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January 12, 2018, 02:36 AM | #14 | |
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Wickard and Gonzales were applied by the Ninth Circuit to cases involving the federal regulation of firearms in United States v. Stewart, 451 F.3d 1071 (9th Cir. 2006) and Montana Shooting Sports Association v. Holder, No. 10-36094, (9th Cir., 2013). Your summary of the Wickard decision isn't entirely accurate, but this isn't the place for a Commerce Clause seminar.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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January 12, 2018, 11:49 AM | #15 | |
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With a number of states allowing the use of medical marijuana and some now allowing its recreational use, there has been renewed discussion of federalism in the popular media and even in some academic/legal circles. Just Google "marijuana federalism" for a host of links. For example, a blog over at the Volokh Conspiracy argues:
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January 12, 2018, 11:59 AM | #16 |
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opinion
Has any one found any PUBLISHED opinions?
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January 12, 2018, 12:24 PM | #17 | |
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January 12, 2018, 12:34 PM | #18 |
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Whether you think its right, or not, the situation as it currently exists is that any physical object that could be moved from one state to another is considered to be covered under the Commerce clause, and so the govt. has authority over it.
doesn't matter if it did move between states, or not. All that matter is that it could have, and because it could have, it has an effect on interstate commerce. The same principle is used in the legal definition of "possession" The law(s) cover not only what is done, but also what could be done. I think most people are blissfully unaware of the laws covering "what could be done" until/unless it affects their personal lives directly. And I think this is because the law covering what could be done is applied so selectively. Firearms law is one of the places where "could be done" is applied more broadly than others. And, often applied without a uniform standard between individual states, and the Fed govt. One area where this can be clearly seen is the various definitions of what constitutes a loaded gun for the purposes of transportation. Everyone agrees that if there is ammunition in the chamber the gun is loaded. Beyond that, the definition of "loaded" jumps all over the map. Some places don't consider the gun loaded unless there is a round in the chamber. Other places consider the gun loaded if there is ammunition in the gun, anywhere, and still other places consider the gun loaded if there is ammunition in the same compartment of the vehicle as the gun. (this is constructive possession at work. The gun might not be physically loaded, but because it could be, then the law considers it as if it were...) Same thing is applied to felon/prohibited person in "possession" of a gun. They don't have to have it in their hands to be in violation of the law. If they COULD get it in their hands, the law is being broken.
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January 12, 2018, 10:58 PM | #19 | ||
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January 13, 2018, 12:35 AM | #20 | |
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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January 13, 2018, 01:27 AM | #21 |
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It isn't [supposed to be] the purpose of defense attorneys to guarantee an acquittal, any more than it's [supposed to be] the purpose of a prosecutor to guarantee a conviction. The intent is to have a trial before an impartial arbiter, whether that's a judge or a jury.
Sadly, too many attorneys on both sides seem to have decided that their purpose is to win, rather than to ensure that the defendant gets a fair trial. |
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