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March 18, 2013, 03:27 PM | #1 | |
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The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door
This is going around the interwebs at lightning fast speed. How would most people here have reacted to this situation specifically? I know I would have refused permission to search, like the linked OP did, but I am going to give a refresher to my 2 college aged sons and make this required reading for them. You?
http://deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8175 Quote:
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March 18, 2013, 03:35 PM | #2 |
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Wow...I hope they fire some people over this
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March 18, 2013, 03:42 PM | #3 |
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That is difficult to believe; surely somebody in that decision chain messed up on departmental procedure or something.
Best wishes to the linked OP and his kid. I think he did the right thing (and the legal thing). |
March 18, 2013, 03:42 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
It would be really good if you could find a news report on this.
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March 18, 2013, 03:56 PM | #5 | ||
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Articles are coming... this is from page 6 of the linked thread/site and although it's not a 1st tier news source by any means, it's a start ...
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March 18, 2013, 04:13 PM | #6 |
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I know I've seen the picture of the kid on Facebook. Maybe someone can track down a verifiable story that way?
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March 18, 2013, 04:32 PM | #7 |
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I've done a little research and I can't find any independent verification of this, but in the link itself there are people advising him to clam up and get a lawyer rather than publicize the situation. It seems like good advice, and he may have taken it, but at this point I sure don't have enough proof for me.
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March 18, 2013, 05:17 PM | #8 |
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This was in New Jersey -- it's entirely plausible.
I don't even live in New Jersey. I know of not one but TWO small-ish towns in my state where gun shops have opened within the past six months, and in BOTH towns the zoning boards are scrambling to try to craft regulations that will make it so no other gun shops can open in their towns. I find it ironic that FBI statistics show so many more murders being committed with hammers than with rifles. The uproar in both towns is that these shops might sell the same kind of evil assault weapon that was used at Sandy Hook. Meanwhile, each of these gun shops is within maybe 200 feet of a hardware store, where they sell (OH THE HORROR!) HAMMERS! ... yet there's no rush to ensure that nobody can open another hammer store in either town. Peepelz iz schtubit ... |
March 18, 2013, 06:27 PM | #9 |
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Noone should be shocked when it involves social services. I would think a good bit of legal advice is necessary for those who haven't had to deal with them. I have and it feels like having a barbed wire stuck up your rearend.
During my divorce I had a call on me claiming I had guns laying all over my house that my kids to get to. I have a 30 gun fireproof safe I keep my guns in. When the social worker came I could have been hateful but I let em in and showed them my safe. Why did I do this? Because not too long before we had another fictictious accusation and when I would not allow the workers in they acted to themselves as if I was acting postal ( I wasn't) so they called for the cop and he showed up and told me I couldn't keep them out and yelled down my shirt collar in front of my kids (he apologized later). Its basically their word against yours. They have a lot of authority and can make things look pretty bad for you if you don't watch your ps and qs. They can take your kids and you would have to get a lawyer to get them back. Maybe the best thing to do when a social worker comes to your door is not answer it and go hide. Last edited by Come and take it.; March 18, 2013 at 06:40 PM. |
March 18, 2013, 09:16 PM | #10 |
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Comeandtakeit,,,,,,,,,how true and sad that this world has come to that. I keep my guns under lock and key always
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March 19, 2013, 05:17 AM | #11 |
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My local LGS has a customer that had about 20 handgun permits. (In NJ you need a separate permit to purchase each handgun and a copy goes to local LE.) One day they came knockin' and wanted to see all the handguns he had permits for. (I guess to make sure he still had them all because private sales of handguns in NJ isn't much different from buying from a FFL - you still need a permit.)
Whether the police had cause to get a warrant was an unknown issue at the time and his lawyer wasn't available. So rather than make the police get a warrant and risk divulging what other guns he had, he had them wait outside while he gathered up his permits and registered handguns. That's what gun registration is all about in NJ folks. |
March 19, 2013, 12:31 PM | #12 |
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Here is the story that was published in The Blaze. The writer spoke to the lawyer about the incident.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...mily-services/ Last edited by Evan Thomas; March 19, 2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: copyright violation. |
March 19, 2013, 12:33 PM | #13 |
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Here is a link to the article that The Blaze wrote on this story:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...mily-services/ *ETA: Southwest Chuck just beat me on this. |
March 19, 2013, 12:38 PM | #14 |
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Okay the national media is now on the story finally
There are quotes and confirmation from his attorney, as well as further clarification from him. No one from either government agency in NJ will even return calls, let alone deny the incident. Looks like it did indeed happen folks. The part I find the most troubling is the refusal by the dyfs worker to identify herself or show any proof of her position at all.
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March 19, 2013, 12:52 PM | #15 |
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They do make up their own rules as they go along. I'm sure the government-sponsored departments of youth and family services (whatever name they use in the various states) are even worse, but I had a run-in with a private social worker when my wife and I were adopting a few years ago.
We had to undergo a series of lengthy and invasive interviews with a licensed "adoption services" social worker as part of the home study evaluation process. I had thought "home study" was basically just a one-time, white glove inspection of the house. Oh, no! It's an entire process, involving much time, energy, and money (mine). They also probe every orifice of your personal history. I'm a Vietnam veteran. She wanted official clearance reports from the police departments of every place I have ever lived, including every station to which I was assigned while in the Army. I served in Vietnam. She wanted a document from the Vietnamese government certifying that I had never been arrested in that country. I pointed out that the government in power when I was there no longer exists and the current government of Vietnam wasn't likely to have records of what sexual or child abuse charges the former government of South Vietnam might have had for American servicemen. She finally settled on a report from the U.S. Army archives saying they had no records of me doing anything naughty. Then came the guns. Even before we got to her actual home visit, she freaked when she learned I own (gasp!) GUNZ! She told us that ("of course") all firearms have to be locked up. I pointed out that, since at the time we had no children living with us, my guns did NOT have to be locked up. However, they were anyway, so she didn't take on that argument. Then she said ALL ammunition had to be locked up. I again pointed out that there is no law requiring that I keep ammunition under lock and key. Her response, after some sniffing and coughing and hemming and hawing, was (get ready, here it comes) "Well, WE require it." (She said the same thing about a carbon monoxide detector.) So I found a company that had moved out of its old headquarters and left a bunch of furniture, begged the site manager to give me one of those 2-door black steel office cabinets, threw a cheap padlock on it, and I had an ammo cabinet. In fact, it didn't hold nearly all my ammo, but she didn't recognize 50-cal ammo cans as what they are so she saw a cabinet with some boxes of "bullets" in it, and she was satisfied. But they do make this stuff up as they go. After all, "It's for the children." |
March 19, 2013, 01:03 PM | #16 |
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Hmmmm. Doesn't seem that these government employees are acting responsibly nor within their legal parameters. I hope his attorney pursues whatever legal recourse he has in order to expose, and bring these people to justice.
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March 19, 2013, 01:26 PM | #17 |
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Hmmm...I think I'm going to delete that picture that I posted on Facebook of my daughter shooting a pistol at the range.
Last edited by southjk; March 19, 2013 at 01:32 PM. |
March 19, 2013, 01:38 PM | #18 | |
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March 19, 2013, 01:48 PM | #19 |
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The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door
The thing I find most troubling is threatening to take the kids. If the anti gun crowd can get one law abiding citizen to react with base emotional fear, such as I would imagine many good parents might do, then they can promote a "crazy gun nut/ government martyr" situation to boost their. I applaud Mr. Moore for reacting in a calm manner.
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March 19, 2013, 01:51 PM | #20 | |
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Moral of the story. Don't have a FB account. (ok in the interests of full disclosure, my dog has a FB account). |
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March 19, 2013, 02:42 PM | #21 |
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WOW But nothing surprises me in NJ.. They think they ALL are above the law here.... I would have done the same thing....
No warrents no reason for being here please leave and take that fake dyfs worker with you thank you!!! Good for him!!! |
March 19, 2013, 02:42 PM | #22 |
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Yeah, social media is very dangerous for a person who believes strongly in protecting their privacy.
Also I would love some information on what can be done about a CPS visit. I had a lawyer tell me that the best thing to do is cooperate but that if I did have something to hide than to outright refuse to let them enter without a warrant. Once again after very careful thought I decided to not answer the phone if it says Child protective services, not answer the door and play like no one is at home, or if I am asked to meet them or receive a visit to have my children secured in another location. To also play very stupid on the matter altogether as if I didn't know I was supposed to have my kids present. What happens than of course is they will nab them at school. Too many horror stories I have heard of people even being lied to about a harmless meeting to the CPS office with their kids only to find a police officer there to make sure everything goes in their favor and a CPS worker sending you home without your kids. I can't understand how CPS can have the authority to just pop up at your front door and demand to enter your home without even making an appointment based on a complaint (sources are never given). The constitution clearly says that a warrant is necessary. |
March 19, 2013, 02:57 PM | #23 | |||
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A reader's comment below the article:
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http://supreme.justia.com/cases/fede...1/43/case.html From the Ruling.... Page 201 U. S. 74 Quote:
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March 19, 2013, 03:07 PM | #24 |
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I found this source as a good primer
http://protectingourchildrenfrombein...ndment-rights/ Lots of room for interpretation by a social worker and police officer. Generally though it appears they have no right to enter your property without a warrant if there is no apparent threat of immediate danger to the child is evident. Supposedly an anonymous complaint is not sufficient evidence to believe that the child or children are in imminent peril. On the other hand if the visit involves something administrative such as whether your house is up to some kind of safety code than you can not refuse them entry. Seizing of your child is even more open to interpretation. |
March 19, 2013, 03:29 PM | #25 |
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Re: The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door
Just pointing thing out. He said he came home and they were already in his house. Meaning his wife had let them in. Whether she was forced to or not I don't know. But fact is they were let in.
Course he had the right to end the "search" and require a warrent which he did soon as he got home. Least I got that from the op so could be mistaken |
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