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Old May 28, 2024, 08:34 PM   #76
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Of course, we must not forget that the 1911 has been around........oh, since about.........1911 and law enforcement agencies agencies have overwhelmingly REJECTED it because it's too complicated and has too many safeties for the average cop to cope with.
While there is some truth to this, I think you are adjusting facts to fit your ideas and not taking into account some rather important factors.

Yes, the 1911 was complicated and a bit much for most cops, in 1920....

Not all the soldiers were comfortable with them, either. Patton himself disliked the 1911, because he had an accidental discharge with one, and never trusted them afterwards.

I think one of, if not the primary reason the police resisted semi auto pistols (In general) for so long was simply the cost. And, the cost involves more than just the purchase price of the pistols. You also have to figure in the cost of training your officers on the new weapon.

I don't have the prices from the 30s or 50s, but I do have the MSRP prices from the mid 70s, and in 1974 a S&W Model 10 was $96. A Colt Govt model (1911A1) was $134.50 and a S&W Model 59, (double stack DA 9mm) was $150.

Remember that the guns bought and issued by most police departments was a decision made by the various chiefs of police, or the mayor or some other bureaucrat, NOT the line officers.

Do note that for many, many years police officers were forbidden the use of magnum ammunition (when they had magnum revolvers) and were also forbidden hollow point ammunition.

Generations of cops lived under those restrictions, because the people running the depts demanded it.

Also, if you want to look at things with a broad enough lens, the cops going to DA semi autos didn't happen until the 80s while the DA semi auto service pistol first showed up about 1938. SO, nearly 50 years of cops sticking with revolvers over DA semi autos, and SA semis were first adopted by a couple of states about 1970.
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Old May 28, 2024, 11:35 PM   #77
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I just find the idea that we must keep things simple because we are not competent to operate something more complex to be offensive.
So is it offensive when someone recommends a DA revolver because it's simple to operate?

If a person wants a gun with a manual safety, there are plenty available. Until people are forced to buy handguns without manual safeties, nobody is being told they "must" do anything and since they are not being told they "must" do anything, they also aren't being told why they must do it.

Being offended by the mere existence of a particular variant/type handgun is really working hard to be offended. That said, in my experience, people looking to be offended almost always find a way to succeed.

I don't think there's ever been such a wide variety of handguns on the market as there is today. I always thought that was a good thing, but apparently it's cause for some to complain.
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Old May 29, 2024, 08:15 AM   #78
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The main reason the 1911 didn't make it as a law enforcement gun was that the only logical method of carry was cocked and locked.

Seeing a large pistol with the hammer back carried in a cop's holster terrified both the observant public and the police bosses.

The Smith Model 39 was the first semi auto that had a chance (because cops didn't want some foreign-made pistol) and was adopted in the late 60s and cops liked it a lot.

The later 59 with high mag capacity they liked even better, but the good old six-shot Model 66 in .357 continued to be a popular choice well into the 1990s--especially with State Police. Wheel guns were a tradition and the highway cops felt they needed the power of the .357 (some even carried one with a six-inch barrel).

And many cops still did not trust a semi auto to be reliable.......and, of course, there WERE problems with that.

(Drumroll)

The inevitable Glock takeover, though.......was as certain as the sunrise.

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Old May 29, 2024, 11:26 AM   #79
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You forgot the drumroll before your last statement.
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Old May 29, 2024, 12:41 PM   #80
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You forgot the drumroll before your last statement.
There, I fixed it.

Better now?

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Old May 29, 2024, 01:07 PM   #81
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Give me a minute, I’ll write GLOCKS RULE all over my white F-150 first.
Then I should start feeling better.
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Old May 29, 2024, 01:27 PM   #82
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Give me a minute, I’ll write GLOCKS RULE all over my white F-150 first.
Then I should start feeling better.
Maybe also......"Glocks Rule Due To Glock Perfection."

That will be perfectly fine.

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Old May 29, 2024, 05:20 PM   #83
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Study your STNG, you may be the Glock and say resistance is futile, but, its not.

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Old May 29, 2024, 05:29 PM   #84
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I carried a CZ P-01 for SD for 13 years - I never had anything like what you are describing, not in MANY CZ pistols. What ammo were you using? The CZ "short chamber" on the P-01, PCR, RAMI, P-10S, P-10C, P-10F, P-10M, P-07, P-09, Scorpion, OR the SP01 Phantom never ever failed to fit and fire factory ammo. Contact CZ-USA and have them figure out what the problem is. For reloads, I generally load to 1.095 COAL for both JHP and RN.

Most overrated handgun? Automag. HUGE handgun, fragile construction, breaks often, zero company support, just looks good in the movies.
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Old May 29, 2024, 05:41 PM   #85
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First..."STNG"?
Second, Glock sells their guns to LE so cheap...well, I know what we paid for them last decade, and at that priced I would have bought three...and I don't even like Glock. And no, I won't say what the cost was, but it was very cheap. They also buy all the used guns the Dept has for more than they are worth, and then resells them on the cheap, which explains why CDNN had so many used LE turn in guns. They dominate the market not JUST because the guns work, (they do), but by aggressive salesmanship and insanely low prices that make more sense when you realize how little it costs the FACTORY to make one. They aren't perfect - I've had three Glocks fail in front of me or in my hand, but then again, nothing is perfect. They are generally reliable, durable and accurate, and I don't feel badly when my issued Glock 19 is holstered on my side. I'd rather carry that than a Hi Point!
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Old May 30, 2024, 12:53 PM   #86
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STNG is a reference to Star Trek Next Generation, where one of the main bad guys are the Borg, a bio/mechanical collective 'Hive mind" who absorb other species and believe their dominance is inevitable, and who's main slogan is "Resistance is futile".

My comment was in reference to another comment that stated Glock domination was .."as certain as the sunrise".

Glock did take over the police market, for a while, they might still be number one, but I know a lot of police agencies who got Glocks have now moved on to other pistols.

I'm told that Glock's square slide was chosen because it is cheaper to make than the common round top slides, and that they chose polygonal rifling because it was cheaper than conventional cut rifling.

I think they chose the trigger they did because every decent trigger design was already covered by someone's patents...

And their plastic frames are significantly cheaper to make than metal alloy frames. Combined with their aggressive marketing, super low prices and "sweetheart deals" to law enforcement is what let them dominate the police market.

I don't fault them for being ruthless, efficient capitalists, but I do fault them for being smug and arrogant about it.

I remember the days, early on, when Glock was still trying to capture the police market, and how, while they would sell their pistols to private citizens, after that, they would barely talk to you, and any problem you had with their pistols was always your fault and they usually claimed that you shot reloads in it (whether there was any proof you did, or not) and therefore they wouldn't fix it. Go away!...

AFTER they got the police market pretty sewed up, that attitude to consumers did soften a bit, but only a bit. Now that Herr Glock has passed on, they may become more consumer friendly, but since they are so successful as is, there's no real reason for them to change.

Between their marketing as "perfection" and the slavish devotion of the "fanboys" I feel the Glock is the most overrated handgun ever.

Its not the ONLY overrated handgun, by any means, I just think its the top of the list. I put one of my favorite pistols on that list, too. The 1911A1 became quite overrated, by tale tellers, and those who had to embellish the truth to emphasize their points.

If you read the actual combat histories, you can find lots of documented examples of the 1911A1 jamming in combat conditions. What got it the reputation for always working was not that it did always work, but that it worked more reliably than the other military pistols of the time. And so, the tale grew in the telling, and over time it changed from "works better than everything else" to "always works, never jams," ...etc.

In that regard, and some others, the 1911A1 became over rated. But not as much as Glock has become, in my opinion. And that's what the OP asked for, my opinion.
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Old May 30, 2024, 02:59 PM   #87
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Marketing sells guns, and marketing doesn't care about facts.
The goal is to sell more guns, not provide the best product to the consumer. If those two goals coincide, it's a lucky coincidence.

Once people have invested in an idea, it's difficult to change their minds. This is where Brand Loyalty comes from, and other unfortunate psychological conditions.

My club will not allow the use of holsters on the pistol ranges. Too many people shot the floor. One guy shot his foot, the other his leg. That was it, enough is enough, no more holsters allowed.

These accidents did not happen with revolvers. They did not happen with 1911s or Berettas. Maybe they could have, but you know the brand of gun involved in both negligent firings.

If the goal is to protect yourself from getting shot, first-- don't shoot yourself. Second-- don't let someone take your gun from you. Now we can argue about which is best.
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Old May 30, 2024, 03:00 PM   #88
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It's fairly common when discussions reach around page 3, there's not much more to add to the topic at hand...Rambling Anecdotes notwithstanding.

Alas, I have to open my big mouth, anyway. And boy, if anyone knows me, there are two brands I absolutely H.A.T.E. HATE. One I'm going to pile on my hatred, one I'm going to defend. I can't believe I'm going to do that. But I hope those that consider my viewpoint will understand I'm honestly trying to be relatively objective. If I'm going as far as defending a platform I'd rather see in the perverbial trashcan, I hope a little bit of latitude can be had on my argument. I do apologize ahead of time and admit I didn't read every single post word for word. Also, bear in mind I'm not projecting my comment as pure fact. Just my own conclusions.

1. Glock

OK, I hear some don't care about how many were sold to support their popularity. I get that. Lowest bidder, etc. However, a big part of that is the firearm must pass certain levels of reliability, parts availability, and universal fit for the masses, yes?

Who blew the doors open on the Plastic Fantastic craze? It wasn't HK's VP70. Why did the XD line become so popular in the U.S.? It was already popular in Croatia under another model number. But not really anywhere else. What about S&W's M&P line? HK's P30?

Let's face it: If it weren't for Glock hammering the market, NONE of the other firearm manufacturers would be successful with their own platforms. Counterfactual? Yep. However, I saw how Glock was marketed. It doesn't matter if they had issues such as the early .40SW platforms or poor sales of the .45GAP. Why? Their overall reliability in 9mm and other sub-models were already established. They pushed how simple they were to field strip, clean, reassemble, and shoot with combat accuracy. People dragged them through the mud along with other competing platforms such as the 1911 at the time, picked them up, and shot them with no cleaning. Non-scientific as it was, the Glock was the clear winner in reliability when abused. They pushed their metal treatment process was superior to corrosion resistance. As much as these were hyped, which could correlate to being overrated to you, Glocks by and large proved to live up to it. How many successful business start-ups and established businesses turned to aftermarket parts/upgrades for Glock? Not only that, you now have a reliable firearm that's easily found at your LGS at a fraction of the cost of other firearms (especially the 1911) and the typical enthusiast can modify them at a large capacity of their imagination. You couldn't do that with any other gun to that degree. Not the 1911. Not a Ruger Mark I, II, or III. Not an HK P7.

Glocks dominated in every aspect that other manufacturers could only DREAM. They were the litmus test. Other manufacturers targeted Glock because they had the market cornered. It was everyone vs. Glock.

Respectully, unless you just turned 21, I honestly can't fathom how anyone can honestly say Glock is overrated in regards to their contributions to the firearm industry over the last 40 years....

...but they are WAY overrated in fitting me and my style of handling/firing a handgun.

Oh, and Kimber? If I typed up a 5 paragraph essay on them on here, the language filter will make it look like one, big red blob. Otherwise, I don't even see it as being an overrated firearm. In my book, a firearm has to be able to, you know, fire, before it can even be considered one.

ETA: Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go vomit due to spending 45minutes typing up a defense for Glock...
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Old May 30, 2024, 03:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
STNG is a reference to Star Trek Next Generation, where one of the main bad guys are the Borg, a bio/mechanical collective 'Hive mind" who absorb other species and believe their dominance is inevitable, and who's main slogan is "Resistance is futile".

My comment was in reference to another comment that stated Glock domination was .."as certain as the sunrise".

Glock did take over the police market, for a while, they might still be number one, but I know a lot of police agencies who got Glocks have now moved on to other pistols.

I'm told that Glock's square slide was chosen because it is cheaper to make than the common round top slides, and that they chose polygonal rifling because it was cheaper than conventional cut rifling.

I think they chose the trigger they did because every decent trigger design was already covered by someone's patents...

And their plastic frames are significantly cheaper to make than metal alloy frames. Combined with their aggressive marketing, super low prices and "sweetheart deals" to law enforcement is what let them dominate the police market.

I don't fault them for being ruthless, efficient capitalists, but I do fault them for being smug and arrogant about it.

I remember the days, early on, when Glock was still trying to capture the police market, and how, while they would sell their pistols to private citizens, after that, they would barely talk to you, and any problem you had with their pistols was always your fault and they usually claimed that you shot reloads in it (whether there was any proof you did, or not) and therefore they wouldn't fix it. Go away!...

AFTER they got the police market pretty sewed up, that attitude to consumers did soften a bit, but only a bit. Now that Herr Glock has passed on, they may become more consumer friendly, but since they are so successful as is, there's no real reason for them to change.

Between their marketing as "perfection" and the slavish devotion of the "fanboys" I feel the Glock is the most overrated handgun ever.

Its not the ONLY overrated handgun, by any means, I just think its the top of the list. I put one of my favorite pistols on that list, too. The 1911A1 became quite overrated, by tale tellers, and those who had to embellish the truth to emphasize their points.

If you read the actual combat histories, you can find lots of documented examples of the 1911A1 jamming in combat conditions. What got it the reputation for always working was not that it did always work, but that it worked more reliably than the other military pistols of the time. And so, the tale grew in the telling, and over time it changed from "works better than everything else" to "always works, never jams," ...etc.

In that regard, and some others, the 1911A1 became over rated. But not as much as Glock has become, in my opinion. And that's what the OP asked for, my opinion.
Even with your heart-rending and amusingly overdone rant.........

The only rational conclusion is...........

RESISTANCE REALLY IS FUTILE!!!!!!!

Glock still rules and nothing can change that reality.

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Old May 30, 2024, 03:36 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Shane Tuttle View Post
...but they are WAY overrated in fitting me and my style of handling/firing a handgun.
I put up with the Glock's blockiness because their Glockiness makes up for it.

They may not fit my hand comfortably........they may not look beautiful.......

But they chew up the targets beautifully and give a bang every time I pull the trigger.

Happy camper here.

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Old May 30, 2024, 10:03 PM   #91
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FYI, that's not Photoshop, AI, nada. That's a real rubber ball Glock guys gave my young son at NRA '09 in Phoenix, AZ.
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Old May 31, 2024, 06:15 AM   #92
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These days... the 1911 and its various iterations.

Is it a good platform? Yes.

Has time really passed it by in so many ways?

Yes.
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Old May 31, 2024, 09:45 AM   #93
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Any 1911, and here's why:
- Unnecessary grip safety - a stupid solution looking for a problem; see Hi-Power - no grip safety!;
- Round count isn't much better than a revolver.
- Sears wear out and break/chip
- Idiot marks from takedown
- Questionable format for hot 10mm - good for slow 45.
- Parts don't just drop in - need fitting.
-
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Old May 31, 2024, 01:49 PM   #94
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Any 1911, and here's why:
I do agree with the 1911 being over rated today, but I don't agree with your reasons being the fault of the original design, but what people have done with it.

Quote:
- Unnecessary grip safety - a stupid solution looking for a problem; see Hi-Power - no grip safety!;
Unnecessary magazine disconnect - a stupid solution looking for a problem; see 1911 and numerous other designs.

Just different opinions, both valid as opinions.

Quote:
- Round count isn't much better than a revolver.
How does this make it overrated??

Quote:
- Sears wear out and break/chip
This one has me scratching my head, specifically, how this is a 1911 problem..

Quote:
- Idiot marks from takedown
This one is easy its entirely the fault of the idiots doing it. Not the gun.

Quote:
- Questionable format for hot 10mm - good for slow 45.
This one is both a yes and a no for me. Yes, I agree the stock .45 1911A1 is being pushed hard by the 10mm, and that does make it questionable if that was a good idea. Other side of the coin, the 1911 pattern/system will take it and more, just fine, IF specifically made for that. I've had LAR Grizzlies in .44Magnum, and in .45Win Mag. They are stretched and beefed up, but they are 1911 pattern guns and handle the magnums just fine.

Quote:
- Parts don't just drop in - need fitting.
I was a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) in the Army when the 1911A1 was our service pistol. I can assure you that parts did "drop in" and no fitting was needed. This was because everything was made to the same common Govt mandated standards, and the parts were inspected to ensure that.

Today, with lots of different makers, each one making their own variations, tweaking and changing specs to "improve" things, you can't count of that, anymore, and some makers change things to ensure only "their" parts will fit.

So, I do agree the 1911 is on the overrated list, just not for precisely the same reasons you do.
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Old May 31, 2024, 02:31 PM   #95
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from what i've read on this forum, i would have to vote that GLOCK is probably the most over rated; not because there is something wrong with them, but because i dislike "pushy salesmen" and glock is the only name i have seen really pushed here.
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Old May 31, 2024, 02:58 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

I was a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) in the Army when the 1911A1 was our service pistol. I can assure you that parts did "drop in" and no fitting was needed. This was because everything was made to the same common Govt mandated standards, and the parts were inspected to ensure that.
And the standards demanded a LOOSE fit right?

Which is why all the parts popped together with ease.

Which is why these pistols were very reliable but not capable of stellar accuracy.

Current manufacturers are going for accuracy and the tolerances are much tighter.

I had a Colt Commander circa 1971 and it was a jammomatic.......but quite accurate.
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Old May 31, 2024, 04:07 PM   #97
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I had a couple dozen 1911s in the Armory, all rattled like castanets, all worked perfectly, and all hit the target. Only issue I had was keeping the sea salt from eating them away.
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Old May 31, 2024, 09:57 PM   #98
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Late to the conversation and all I have to offer is my $.02 worth.

For those of you who hate Glocks so much, I recommend you don't buy one. Why you feel it necessary to tell other people not to buy them escapes me.

I've always thought the Browning HiPower was more popular than it deserved to be. YMMV! But, if you like the P-35, more power to you.

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Old May 31, 2024, 11:02 PM   #99
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And the standards demanded a LOOSE fit right?
No, the standards demanded a PROPER fit.

Quote:
Which is why all the parts popped together with ease.

Which is why these pistols were very reliable but not capable of stellar accuracy.
Serviceability was the requirement, stellar accuracy was NOT. Never forget that the 1911 was designed to be what the customer wanted. A service pistol. Not a match pistol. Browning originally offered a 200gr bullet at 900fps. The Army wanted a 230gr. The original design didn't have a thumb safety. The Army wanted one. So, Browning gave them what they wanted.

Match accuracy wasn't a requirement, reliability with service ammo, and "minute of man" accuracy was, and that's what they got.

As far as being "loose" if you ever get a chance to do a hands on inspection of one of the old 1911s or 1911A1s that wasn't in service use for 50,60, or 70 years, you'd be surprised, I think. They aren't "loose" or "sloppy" and they don't rattle. (much, anyway...)

The newest .45s the govt bought (outside of small purchases for spec ops units in fairly recent times) was in 1945. Even the ones that didn't see hard use in combat were handled, cycled, stripped and reassembled thousands of times if not tens of thousands of times or more over the years, and not by people who cared for anything other than the gun worked.

Yes, you can improve the accuracy of the 1911 design by tightening certain tolerances, but its been a well known fact for about a century that doing that reduces the guns reliability. Not a concern for a target pistol, but not a good idea for a service pistol.

Quote:
I had a Colt Commander circa 1971 and it was a jammomatic.......but quite accurate.
What were you running it on, that jammed so badly??
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Old June 1, 2024, 09:44 AM   #100
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No, the standards demanded a PROPER fit.

Serviceability was the requirement, stellar accuracy was NOT.

Never forget that the 1911 was designed to be what the customer wanted. A service pistol. Not a match pistol. Browning originally offered a 200gr bullet at 900fps. The Army wanted a 230gr. The original design didn't have a thumb safety. The Army wanted one. So, Browning gave them what they wanted.

Match accuracy wasn't a requirement, reliability with service ammo, and "minute of man" accuracy was, and that's what they got.
Your dirge for the grand old 1911 is instructive.

Here we have the sad tale of a weapon that can be accurate if it gives up on reliability or reliable if it gives up on accuracy.

It is a battlefield gun--made for shooting men in harsh conditions of mud and sludge and blood--reliable and accurate enough to hit a man's body.

Perfect for that application. "Proper" fit of parts is loose--if a dollop if mud or glop or a few pebbles get into the works--the gun keeps working.

I am aware, of course, that a gunsmith can make the newer ones quite reliable (though the owner may still have to tinker with them) if you want to put the money into them.

And some recent manufacturers have found a decent compromise that can bring accuracy and pretty good reliability (although the owner may still have to tinker with them).

But........why screw around when you can have a Glock that always goes bang and holds 14 instead of eight?

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