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Old May 27, 2024, 05:57 PM   #51
The Verminator
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post

I have read FAR more reports of accidental/negligent discharges with Glocks due to something engaging the trigger while holstering...
This is indeed a concern.

This problem was at its worst years ago with cops disarming perps and shoving the perp's Glock into their waistband temporarily--and catching the trigger on clothing.

Normal reholstering with a good holster (by a competent person) is rarely a problem anymore. Caution increased with greater awareness of the problem.

Myself, I use an inside waistband holster and to reholster I always pull the holster out and put the gun in it and then shove the whole works back in the waistband--that way the trigger is covered and protected during the process.

The cop problem has been pretty much solved by addressing it in police training.

Last edited by The Verminator; May 27, 2024 at 07:12 PM.
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Old May 27, 2024, 06:23 PM   #52
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I would dearly love to be able to slap some sense into the folks who promoted the idea that having a manual safety on a pistol was some kind of drawback or risk. IT strikes me as disrespectful at the least, the idea that we shouldn't have a safety because we're not smart enough to remember to use it properly.

Or perhaps it is some form of projection, people who fear they are going to forget the safety and there for everyone else is going to, as well...??

The way I see it, there is a parallel to driving a car, particularly a standard (oops, they're not standard anymore... ) a manual transmission.

You learn how to operate the controls, (both hand and foot) and when to use them, and if you learn properly, you don't forget, even under extreme stress.

Even if you only learned an automatic, do you fear you will "forget" which pedal is the gas and which is the brake?? I don't.

Specific to the safety lock on the 1911 design, (and "safety lock" is the correct term and the one used in the military manuals) Browning's original design did not have one. The Army, and specifically the Cavalry required one. The point was that the grip safety alone was not enough to prevent an accidental discharge under certain conditions, but a manual safety that was "locked" on would.

They were right in 1910, they are still right in the 21st century.

My personal preference is that a pistol should have either an exposed hammer or a active manual safety, and I'm happiest when they have both, but one or the other needs to be there, or its a deal breaker, for me.

I don't object to passive safety systems, such as a grip safety, but passive systems alone don't meet my personal requirements.

Also, I refuse to refer to a magazine disconnector as a safety. Its not.

You're welcome to your own opinions, even when I feel you're wrong, I respect your right to have them.
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Old May 27, 2024, 07:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I would dearly love to be able to slap some sense into the folks who promoted the idea that having a manual safety on a pistol was some kind of drawback or risk. IT strikes me as disrespectful at the least, the idea that we shouldn't have a safety because we're not smart enough to remember to use it properly.
It's not a matter of "smart."

It's a matter of keeping things simple--which is wise.

Safety or no safety is a trade off........it will work well for some and not so well for others.

The practiced professional will probably do well with a safety.

Many others will forget it in the fog of combat and this includes smart people.

There's no perfect answer, but keeping it simple is a proven method.

Which is best? I don't know of any reliable or proven conclusions.
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Old May 27, 2024, 08:59 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Verminator
Normal reholstering with a good holster (by a competent person) is rarely a problem anymore. Caution increased with greater awareness of the problem.
"With a good holster" is part of the problem. I'm pretty certain former NFL star Plaxico Burress was carrying a Glock when he shot himself in the leg. Ditto for Aqib Talib, another NFL star who shot himself in the leg. I know Burress wasn't using a holster; I believe the same is true for Talib.

Several years ago, there was an incident that received a lot of attention at the time in which a man's Glock went off while he was reholstering because his holster was either old or made of soft leather (or both), with the result that when he tried to reholster, part of the holster itself entered the trigger window and pulled the trigger.

I'm happy with my 1911's thumb safety.
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Old May 27, 2024, 09:59 PM   #55
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The practiced professional will probably do well with a safety.
The practiced individual will probably do well with a safety.

While the word "professional" is frequently used today to imply competence, it actually only means that you get paid for doing it.

Quote:
Many others will forget it in the fog of combat and this includes smart people.
While this is, and always has been a possibility, I question the use of "many" as in the pre-internet days, reports of such things were very, very rare.

Auto accidents where someone mistakenly stepped on the gas instead of the brake made the news, not because of the accident, but because of the rare, and unusual cause.

If there were actually "many" people who forgot their safeties, I would think that by now, we would have lists, articles or studies compiled showing what percentage of people did that, what percent of the time.

We don't have those, as far as I know, which leads me to think the entire issue is overblown and over hyped in order to aid in the marketing of pistols without safeties. "you can't forget it, it doesn't have one!"

Not a selling point, to me.

People do weird things under stress, some of them, anyway, and until it happens there is no valid predictor.

Observation has shown that under stress the majority of trained people will do what they were trained to do, right, or wrong. A percentage of trained people will do something else not covered by their training, and a certain percentage will actually do nothing.

With untrained people the same general pattern hold, the majority will do one thing, (usually nothing, while they try to figure out the right thing to do) and a percentage will so some random act.

I believe if you teach yourself to move the safety off as part of the draw, you won't forget it any more than you will forget to put your car in gear when you want to drive.
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Old May 27, 2024, 11:30 PM   #56
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Personally, I'm all in favor of punks using Glocks and not being familiar with grip safeties and manual thumb safeties. With any luck, if some punk manages to get his hands on my 1911, he won't be able to shoot me because he won't think to disengage the thumb safety. On the other hand, I've been using 1911s for so long that it's primarily a matter of muscle memory for my thumb to sweep the safety off as the pistol comes into target alignment.
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Old May 27, 2024, 11:37 PM   #57
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IT strikes me as disrespectful at the least, the idea that we shouldn't have a safety because we're not smart enough to remember to use it properly.
1. Handguns without manual safeties have been around as long as handguns have existed. The modern design concept of a "DAO" autopistol without a manual safety was primarily aimed at the market that had formerly embraced DA revolvers. Do you feel that DA revolvers are disrespectful to the shooting community?

2. No one is telling anyone that they shouldn't have a manual safety or aren't allowed to have one. No one is forced to buy pistols like that. It's just one more option on the market. Those who feel that the lack of a manual safety is undesirable are free to buy any of the many handgun designs that do come with manual safeties. Unfortunately, they will miss out on some shooting enjoyment since nearly all DA revolvers won't satisfy their requirements.
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Old May 28, 2024, 05:28 AM   #58
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"Handguns without manual safeties have been around as long as handguns have existed. The modern design concept of a "DAO" autopistol without a manual safety was primarily aimed at the market that had formerly embraced DA revolvers. Do you feel that DA revolvers are disrespectful to the shooting community? "

DA revolvers and Striker fired semi autos are not the same.
That is unless you happen to have a revolver that holds the hammer at half cock.
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Old May 28, 2024, 07:35 AM   #59
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DA revolvers and Striker fired semi autos are not the same.
I said nothing about striker-fired pistols and I made no claim that DA revolvers were "the same" as any other handgun.

What I responded to was a comment about the lack of a "manual safety on a pistol" being disrespectful.

The fact is that there have been pistols without manual safeties from the very inception of pistols. Furthermore, at one time, the DA revolver, a pistol design which is only extremely rarely equipped with a manual safety was extremely popular.

The design of "DAO" autopistols (which includes some hammer-fired models--in fact at the beginning they were pretty much all hammer-fired) came about because of a perception that the general operating procedure of DA revolvers (draw and pull the trigger to fire) was desirable. That is, it was really an attempt to roll things back (to some degree) to the days when the DA revolver was king. Rather than being something new or unusual, it was really intended to be a throwback.

People who feel that pistols without manual safeties are "disrepectful" should, if they want to be consistent, eschew DA revolvers since they are very much pistols without manual safeties.
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Old May 28, 2024, 07:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The practiced individual will probably do well with a safety.

While the word "professional" is frequently used today to imply competence, it actually only means that you get paid for doing it.

Observation has shown that under stress the majority of trained people will do what they were trained to do, right, or wrong. A percentage of trained people will do something else not covered by their training, and a certain percentage will actually do nothing.

With untrained people the same general pattern hold, the majority will do one thing, (usually nothing, while they try to figure out the right thing to do) and a percentage will do some random act.

I believe if you teach yourself to move the safety off as part of the draw, you won't forget it any more than you will forget to put your car in gear when you want to drive.
Yes, I used the wrong word. "Professional" doesn't work.

Practiced pistolero would have been correct.

As to the confusion that sometimes happens with safeties.......far too many who carry today DON'T practice much at all.

They also fail to stay in a state of readiness and awareness.

So........trouble catches them by surprise and they can be in a state of shock when they actually have to pull that gun. As you say, some don't even pull it.

That's the biggest problem.........the lazy, unprepared and untrained person with a gun.

Keeping it simple has its merits, especially for them. The less they have to remember, the more likely they will survive.

This probably holds true for a few trained people as well.

Many cops (especially the rural folks) go their entire career without ever having to pull that gun on the job.
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Old May 28, 2024, 08:02 AM   #61
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Striker Fired Glocks have been a very large part of this discussion
I think that might be a fact.
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Old May 28, 2024, 08:18 AM   #62
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Striker Fired Glocks have been a very large part of this discussion
I think that might be a fact.
It very well might. However, you'll notice that my initial post did not make any mention of either Glocks or striker-fired pistols. That is another fact.

Your statement that striker-fired semi-autos are not the same as DA revolvers is true. It just doesn't contradict anything I said.
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Old May 28, 2024, 08:33 AM   #63
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I would dearly love to be able to slap some sense into the folks who promoted the idea that having a manual safety on a pistol was some kind of drawback or risk. IT strikes me as disrespectful at the least, the idea that we shouldn't have a safety because we're not smart enough to remember to use it properly.
Amen!
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Old May 28, 2024, 08:37 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
This is indeed a concern.

This problem was at its worst years ago with cops disarming perps and shoving the perp's Glock into their waistband temporarily--and catching the trigger on clothing.

Normal reholstering with a good holster (by a competent person) is rarely a problem anymore. Caution increased with greater awareness of the problem.

Myself, I use an inside waistband holster and to reholster I always pull the holster out and put the gun in it and then shove the whole works back in the waistband--that way the trigger is covered and protected during the process.

The cop problem has been pretty much solved by addressing it in police training.
I also prefer to carry inside the waistband. Fine for going to town, but not so fine working outdoors. Outside the waistband, and it catches on other objects, inside and the main problem is sweat. Have you experienced any holster that protects your gun better than others from sweat? If the polymer guns would have a manual safety that would go a long way to helping.
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Old May 28, 2024, 08:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by s3779m View Post
I also prefer to carry inside the waistband. Fine for going to town, but not so fine working outdoors. Outside the waistband, and it catches on other objects, inside and the main problem is sweat. Have you experienced any holster that protects your gun better than others from sweat? If the polymer guns would have a manual safety that would go a long way to helping.
I change guns for yard work on warm summer days.

I carry a Smith Model 60 stainless .38 Special in a regular holster.

I wear a large shirt with cut off sleeves to cover it while staying cool.
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Old May 28, 2024, 11:37 AM   #66
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9mm is way over rated. It is what it is and it is NOT ALMOST as... anything else.
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Old May 28, 2024, 11:56 AM   #67
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9mm is way over rated. It is what it is and it is NOT ALMOST as... anything else.
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Old May 28, 2024, 12:26 PM   #68
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9mm is way over rated. It is what it is and it is NOT ALMOST as... anything else.
I agree. I have no love for the 9mm. I shot my first 1911 when I was 9 so yeah I'm a 1911 fanboi. I don't like striker fired guns, I don't like plastic guns, I don't like guns without hammers, I don't like guns that are DA and yes you can point shoot a 1911. I do like guns that aren't 1911's but they're mostly SA revolvers.
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Old May 28, 2024, 12:38 PM   #69
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9mm is way over rated. It is what it is and it is NOT ALMOST as... anything else.
The topic is handguns--not calibers.

So start a new thread if you want to go off about calibers.

I think that 9mm thing has been done before, though.

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Old May 28, 2024, 12:39 PM   #70
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Glocks are Ok if you keep your finger off the trigger.

9mm is over rated if you don't get shot in the vitals. Same goes for 7.65X17 and just about any caliber that can penetrate to the vitals.

Can't believe the the silly stuff I am reading here.
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Old May 28, 2024, 01:34 PM   #71
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2. No one is telling anyone that they shouldn't have a manual safety or aren't allowed to have one.
While I have not seen anyone go so far as to claim we shouldn't be allowed to have one, I have seen people claim that we shouldn't have one, BECAUSE it "complicates things" and people can "forget to take it off"....

Quote:
What I responded to was a comment about the lack of a "manual safety on a pistol" being disrespectful.
To be clear, my comment was not about the presence or absence of a safety on a pistol, I have dozens of pistols that don't have safeties. Revolvers, both DA and SA, single shot pistols (Contenders) and even some semi auto pistols (Sig P220s).

My comment was aimed at the idea that one should not have a safety, because you might forget to use it properly. The implication that we are not competent enough (or smart enough) is what I found disrespectful.

There is merit in keeping things simple, no question about that. I just find the idea that we must keep things simple because we are not competent to operate something more complex to be offensive.

Yes, there are people who are not competent enough to do that. What bothers me is the assumption on the part of the "no safety because you might forget it" advocates putting us all in that group.

And, I still think Glock is the most overrated handgun, ever. NO ONE else I know of has ever claimed their pistol to be "perfection". That alone puts it at the top of my most overrated list.
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Old May 28, 2024, 02:04 PM   #72
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Of course, we must not forget that the 1911 has been around........oh, since about.........1911 and law enforcement agencies agencies have overwhelmingly REJECTED it because it's too complicated and has too many safeties for the average cop to cope with.

Revolvers absolutely DOMINATED.......until double action autos came along.

Of course.........some of them had safeties and decockers and some confusion still existed.

Then.........along came Glock!

With NO safety.

Just pull the trigger. Could that be simple enough for the average cop???

Turns out the answer is yes.

Now Glock dominates.

Might not be perfect--just close enough to perfectly dominate the market.

Try as we might, as disgruntled and out of touch and stubborn as we may be.......we can't defeat it.

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Old May 28, 2024, 02:33 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

My comment was aimed at the idea that one should not have a safety, because you might forget to use it properly. The implication that we are not competent enough (or smart enough) is what I found disrespectful.
I don’t think people are attempting to suggest that a person isn’t smart enough. I think the idea is that under stress a person will not have the wherewithal to remember to disengage that safety. That’s not a function of a person’s intelligence. It’s more a function of a person’s natural ability to handle stress and how that ability may have been augmented by training.

I have seen people who in conversation and in typical range practice seem very intelligent and/or competent with their firearms and then some of those people perform notably worse in force on force or other attempts to simulate high stress events. Does that mean it will happen to everyone? It does not.
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Old May 28, 2024, 02:52 PM   #74
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"Revolvers absolutely DOMINATED.......until double action autos came along."

Really.....

How about,
P-38,
PP series,
S&W 39,59
Beretta 92
Sig 220,225
I'm sure there are others I overlooked.
I believe all of these were around, some for quite a while before DA semi autos took hold.

I'm not so sure ammunition development didn't have more to do with the switch to autos by increasing their reliability with available ammo other than FMJ. Some of those exposed lead soft point, hollow point bullets would clog up the best pistols today.
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Old May 28, 2024, 03:06 PM   #75
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There are a lot of guns that aren't as magical as their fanboys would have us believe. The 1911 is a contender for the "most over-rated" title due primarily to the hyperbole of its fans, but I will have to admit that a 1911 does seem to be a particularly easy pistol to shoot well and I've known a few died-in-the-wool fans of other designs be converted after trying a 1911. No, I have to agree with others here that I think Glocks are the most over-rated. Not to say that a Glock is a bad gun, but it isn't the be-all, end-all that some of its fanboys seem to believe that it is, for that matter it isn't even any better than several of its competitors.

A Glock is an accurate, reliable, reasonably-priced handgun; no more and no less. The notion that they are the pinnacle of firearm reliability is, in my experience, exaggeration at best and myth at worst. They have their shortcomings like any other firearm, but Glock fanboys seem to be more willing that most to either ignore these shortcomings or try to shift the blame for them. Glocks have a relatively short, light trigger and no active manual safety. While we can repeat things like "safety between your ears" until the cows come home, the fact of the matter is that, in the real world, trigger finger discipline sometimes isn't what it should be. While having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be is always dangerous, Glocks are among the least forgiving pistols in this regard. For all the talk about Glocks being superior because they're used by law enforcement, the fanboys like to ignore the fact that one of Glock's biggest users, the NYPD, saw fit to put extra heavy triggers in their pistols, methinks this was done for a reason.

We also see a lot made of what is or is not a "proper" or "well designed" holster and some of the "requirements" such as a completely covered trigger guard became requirements largely because of pistols like Glocks. Holsters with features like exposed trigger guards, retention straps, and thumb breaks were in use for many decades and were not considered unsafe. Of course, the pistols used in such holsters had features like external hammers, manual safeties, or true DA triggers. The fact of the matter is that Glocks and pistols like it require certain types of holsters to be safely carried that aren't required for other handgun designs. This doesn't make a holster with an open trigger guard or flexible thumb break a "bad" design, just one for which a Glock or similar pistol isn't suited. The Glock fanboys, however, want to deride such holster designs as substandard rather than acknowledge that their chosen pistol is simply more sensitive to holster design than others.

Similarly, Glocks are less suitable to certain methods of carry that other pistols. I routinely pocket carry a small pistol or revolver in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster, but I would never consider carrying a Glock or similar pistol in a pocket at all, much less in a "soft" holster like the Desantis. Likewise, I think that appendix carry wouldn't be so controversial if people were primarily doing it with guns that are hammer-fired and/or have manual safeties. While a manual safety or DA trigger might not be an adequate substitute for trigger finger discipline, they absolutely can prevent an ugly accident if a foreign object like a retention strap, shirt tail, or jacket zipper finds its way into your trigger guard while you're holstering your pistol, especially when that gun and holster are pointed at your crotch and femoral arteries.

Finally, a lot of hay has been made about Glocks grip shape and angle. The fanboys like to dismiss this as a "training issue" and say that with enough practice it can be overcome. While it may be true that one can become accustomed to a Glock's grip, the fact of the matter is that, for some people, it will never be as comfortable as another pistol would be. I for one don't find a Glock's grip to be a particularly good fit for my hand and while I'm sure I could learn to shoot one well enough, I don't see any reason to when there are plenty of other pistols out there that give up nothing to Glock in features, reliability, accuracy, or price which are much more comfortable in my hand to begin with. Why introduce a "training issue" if I can avoid it all together in the first place?
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