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Old January 28, 2023, 04:57 PM   #26
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Note how very tapered cases in semis have very curved magazines. Works very well when designed that way from the ground up.

Fitting them into an AR type action is problematical, because the AR action requires the top few inches of the magazine to be straight up and down, not curved. Some cartridges work passably well, some don't.
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Old January 28, 2023, 05:20 PM   #27
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Note how very tapered cases in semis have very curved magazines. Works very well when designed that way from the ground up.



Fitting them into an AR type action is problematical, because the AR action requires the top few inches of the magazine to be straight up and down, not curved. Some cartridges work passably well, some don't.
Exactly. The tapering makes the top round lose contact with the feed lips to assume the correct attitude. It will then tend to feed low and get stuck. It is mostly resolved in AR-47 with redesigned curved magazine. But 22-250 in AR 10 is too new to have something similar. One boutique shop makes one with machined parts. It costs over $100 a mag. BCA (yeah the cheap shop) sells a Magpul .308 mag with modified follower. It is good for 5-8 rounds. Good enough for me.

-TL

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Old January 30, 2023, 11:27 AM   #28
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Sounds like an interesting caliber to tinker with. Itching to get an ar-10 chambering that.

Does it burn barrel fast?

Thanks for your inputs.

-TL

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The .22-250 is based on a .308 Winchester case, so the head-size isn't the same as the .223 Rem.
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Old January 31, 2023, 03:27 PM   #29
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The .22-250 is based on a .308 Winchester case,
No, it is not.

It is based on the .250 Savage case. Which was introduced in 1915. The .22-250 was created as a wildcat round in the 1930s, and was quite popular, eventually becoming standardized and adopted by Remington about 1965. It shares the same .473" head size as many other rounds, developed originally by Mauser for their 8mm and 7mm rounds and used by the .30-06 and .308 Win family of cartridges, and even the .45ACP since Mauser introduced it in 1888.

The .378" head size of the .223 Rem comes from the .222 Rem case, introduced by Remington in 1950.

Is the .22-250 a barrel burner? It can be, if pushed to the max. Lots of high performance rounds are, some worse than others.

I think an AR 10 in .22-250 would be an interesting project, if you like trying to solve problems with the AR type rifles. Mechanically, the two big issues I see are feeding from the magazine (previously mentioned) and even more important, properly timing the cycle of the action.

At a minimum, I'd think an adjustable gas system would be needed, and then there is the issue of whether or not existing stock parts such as action spring and buffer (made for larger calibers) would be suitable. Theory says they should be, but reality sometimes doesn't do what theory says it should.

Good Luck if you go that route, and please, do let us know what you encounter.
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Old February 1, 2023, 10:26 PM   #30
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Both 250 savage and 308 win originate from 30-06, which was based on 8mm Mauser...

I think I can convert 308 win to 22-250 if I have to.

An AR 10 in 22-250 indeed. I'm tempted.

-TL

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Old February 1, 2023, 11:36 PM   #31
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IN the broadest sense everything using the same head size is "based" on the first cartridge to use that head size. But after than things often differ.

The .250 Savage was designed by Newton, and hit the market in 1915, and while it has the .473" head size, the case body is much shorter and has a lot more taper than the .30-06.

You can form .22-250 from .30-06 (or any other longer case with the .473" head size, but it is a multi stage process, needing 4 or 5 sizing dies to reduce the case taper in stanges and then, reaming the thick body brass for the case neck.

Probably annealing, perhaps more than once would be a good idea, too...
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Old February 2, 2023, 12:30 AM   #32
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I compared dimensions of the 3 cartridges. Looks like it is easier to convert from .308 win than .30-06. 22-250 brass is available for about $1 per. I wouldn't mind buying new at that price. But I wouldn't mind converting if the price goes any higher. It could be hard to size down the shoulder and neck. But it shouldn't be too much more than pushing back shoulder as from .30-06 to 7.7 jap. Reaming/ turning the neck is a must.

I will see when I get the rifle.

-TL

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Old February 2, 2023, 03:59 AM   #33
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It could be hard to size down the shoulder and neck. But it shouldn't be too much more than pushing back shoulder as from .30-06 to 7.7 jap. Reaming/ turning the neck is a must.
It may be a bit more work, the .308 is actually slightly larger than the 06 at the base of its shoulder. Going from the 06 to the 7.7Jap doesn't squeeze the case at the point of the shoulder base as much as going from .308 to .22-250.

Not sure how many steps it would take to reduce the shoulder diameter and also go from a 20 degree shoulder to a 28 degree shoulder without excessive brass failure.

And, I'm certain the dies you'd need to use to do it would be on the "custom" list, and that means considerable $ these days. Give RCBS a call and ask, what you'd need and what they would cost.

Buying .22-250 brass is the way to go. Formed brass is probably going to have a different capacity than commercially made brass, so you'd need to create your own load data for those cases.

How much brass will you need??
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Old February 2, 2023, 05:05 AM   #34
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I don't know. Imagine pushing back the shoulder. Body becomes shoulder, and shoulder becomes neck. It is all reducing diameter as it goes. Sizing down the body towards the shoulder is same operation but with less magnitude, is it not? I guess I will find out when I get to that point.

I always try to use sizing dies of other calibers for intermediate steps if needed. Because of my own cheapness, I won't do custom dies, unless all hope varnishes.

I usually start with no more than 50 pieces of brass. That will last me 500 to 1000 loads. On occasions (when conversion is involved) I started with even less, 10 pieces will do.

-TL

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Old February 2, 2023, 12:26 PM   #35
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tangolima,

I've loaded about 5500 rounds for two .22-250 rifles. One a 14:1 twist Rem 700 and the newer one a 12:1 twist Savage 110.
With Winchester brass I got 12.8 rounds per brass.
With factory brass, I got 10.8 rounds per brass.
With Lapua brass, I got 17.8 rounds per brass.

Lapua is more expensive but works out just about the same when you consider the additional number of reloads it provides. I now use Lapua for all my bolt action rifles.
With my .223, I get well over 20 to 23 reloads per brass as long as I keep the pressure below Pmax, in the high middle of the load tables.

The 14:1 twist .22-250 shoots 52 grain and 53 grain match bullets the most accurately.
I've shot 40 grain Nosler BTs with a muzzle velocity of 4200 fps and they work like grenades on prairie dogs.
55 grain match bullets, even Bergers, drop off in accuracy a bit with the 14:1 twist barrel.
Bergers more accurate than any other 55 gr bullet in that rifle but are still less accurate than 52s and 53s.
The actual twist in my Remington could be slightly slower than 14:1 and 55 gr bullets just doesn't work with it.

The 12:1 twist Savage shoots 55 grain Berger #22410 bullets the best, slightly better than the 52 and 53 grain match bullets.
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Old February 2, 2023, 04:18 PM   #36
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I have 2 22-250 rifles, both with 1 in 12 twist, and they both shoot best with bullets weighing from 50 to 55gr.
I do not push the velocity to to the top end to be a bit nicer to the barrels
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Old February 2, 2023, 05:06 PM   #37
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Trivia: Harvey Donaldson claimed to have been first to neck .250 to .22 but he used the .227" Savage groove diameter instead of the .224" that Gebby went with.

Remington considered basing the .222 on the .25 Remington but concluded that the .25 was not stout enough in the head for the pressures planned. Seems to me like beefing up the .25 would have been simpler than bringing out a whole new case design, but Mike Walker didn't agree with me.
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Old February 3, 2023, 06:03 AM   #38
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Avoid BCA Fast twist. Went through 2 before getting refund.
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Old February 3, 2023, 01:40 PM   #39
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55 grain match bullets, even Bergers, drop off in accuracy a bit with the 14:1 twist barrel.
Bergers more accurate than any other 55 gr bullet in that rifle but are still less accurate than 52s and 53s.
The actual twist in my Remington could be slightly slower than 14:1 and 55 gr bullets just doesn't work with it.

Going as far back as one can go, rifling twist rates have always been expressed as "one turn in XX inches", not the other way around. 1-14" or 1 in 14" is the usual way to say it.

Would you define "drop off in accuracy a bit", and just how 55gr bullets don't "work" in your Remington?

My current .22-250 is a Winchester, book says twist is 1-14. at 100yds, 55gr SPs shoot into an inch or 3/4" with my best loads. That works just fine for me. 52/53gr MATCH bullets go a bit less, 3/4" sometimes a little as 1/2".
63gr "semi spitzers" shoot into about 2", or a bit less.

That's what MY rifle does with my handloads. All the bullets that exit the muzzle "work". Specific bullets may not work as well as you want them to, but they do work.
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Old February 3, 2023, 04:23 PM   #40
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Avoid BCA Fast twist. Went through 2 before getting refund.
I thought BCA only has 1-14.

3/4" at 100yd is pretty good. An AR 10 could be a bit worse. I expect the usual 1”.

Well another caliber got my eyeballs. How about .243 Winchester? It is almost like 6mm creedmoor. But it seems more practical than 22-250. Pondering.

-TL

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Old February 4, 2023, 03:24 AM   #41
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The .243 is better suited to an AR 10 than the .22-250, less case body taper.

Also the .243 is a legal deer round in every state, the .22-250 isn't.

The 6mm Creedmore is a slightly shorter case than the .243, from what I've heard its so that the long "low drag" bullets can be seated without being too deep in the case. Published data I've sees shows approximately the same velocity as the .243.
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Old February 4, 2023, 03:40 AM   #42
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Yeah that's what I have read too.

-TL

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Old February 4, 2023, 09:14 AM   #43
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44AMP
Sorry for the odd format. Dyslexia

The 52 Bergers average 0.501 with 3 different powders in the Rem 700.
The 55 grain Bergers average 0.758 at 100 yards with the best powder of the 3.

52 and 53 grain bullets occupy the top 8 places out of 30 combinations when I compare Powder-Bullet combinations.
50 and 40 grain bullets follow in places 9 to 13.
Berger 55s occupy the 14th slot.
Other 55 gr bullets like the Sierra #1335 and #1360s occupy places 15, 18,19, 23, and 27.
60 grain bullets are at the bottom.
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Old February 4, 2023, 08:13 PM   #44
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I had one of the first .22-250 Rem 700s around my part of Maine. I used it for woodchuck and crow hunting and it was quite effective. My favorite handloaded rounds involved the 52 grain varmint bullets made by several companies, but mostly Sierra and. I was a student, so didn't have much money to invest in a powerful scope and used a 6X Weaver, which was quite effective.

The rifle was accurate enough to win several turkey shoots in the Waterville/Sidney range I belonged to. The rifle would group under 1/2" at 100 yards and won many turkeys.
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Old February 4, 2023, 08:56 PM   #45
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.22-250s generally shoot really well, but most of them are not purpose built match guns, they are varmint guns, where the difference of 1/4" in group size isn't a huge concern.

My first one was in the early 70s and was made on a Mauser action by our local gunsmith. Mauser 98 action, Douglas 26" tube (medium contour not a bull or a feastherweight barrel), Bishop stock and topped with an old Weaver K8 with fine crosswires. And that's where the smith stopped. I added a scope safety and a Timney target trigger.

Shooing off a rolled up field jacket, on the hood of a pickup, using Rem factory 55gr SPs that gun would put 3 in a group you could cover with a dime at 100yds.

EVERY SINGLE TIME....if the shooter did their part right.

This was outstanding for crows and woodchucks to 300yds, a bit more when the stars lined up just right. Other cartridges always ruled the "all bullets in one hole" game, where the .22-250 shined was hunting accuracy and high speed.
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Old February 5, 2023, 04:08 PM   #46
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High speed with flat base bullets make sense for 300-500yd. Boat tail could even be counter productive unless it is for range beyond that. That's what I have learned after monkeying with handloading for more than 5 years.

Still contemplating and dithering between 22-250 and .243 Winchester. Maybe I should get both uppers? What would you guys choose if you get to have only one? I sorta lean towards .243. 6mm bullets cost more though.

-TL

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Old February 5, 2023, 08:41 PM   #47
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Personally, I wouldn't chose either, but that is because I have a .22-250 varmint rifle and I have a .243 Win carbine for deer/light game. Both are bolt actions and meet my needs just fine.

Also, I sold my last AR during the original "assault weapon" panic when the $450 gun brought me $900, so I have nothing to put an AR upper on, anymore.

From a practical point of view, for an AR 10, I'd think the .243 would be better suited, being essentially a necked down .308 Win, plus being legal for deer anywhere semis are still allowed for hunting.

I think the .22-250 is the superior round in its class, both in terms of performance AND using a common case size. The Swift beats it a little bit, at barrel eating speeds, but I'm not a fan of the case they used.

If you've got the $, there an alternative wildcat, versions going by different names (.22 Cheetah is one I remember) where one essentially takes a .243 case and necks it to .22 cal. That might give you a "super .22-250" AND be better suited to an AR 10 action (including magazines!).

Might be worth looking into....
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Old February 5, 2023, 11:40 PM   #48
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I had a rack full of Groundhog guns, all 224 cal except for a 243. I shoot all 55gr bullets from 222 thru 220. The 22-250 was my least favorite cartridge in this class. I sold 2 Rem 700s and one Ruger 77, all heavy barrel models. Now had the misfortune of winning another 22-250 Ruger American at a gun bash. Never took it out of box yet. It’s going straight into trade pile. I’ve always opted for the heavier bullet for accuracy, even if velocity is sacrificed.
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Old February 6, 2023, 01:53 AM   #49
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I have an eclectic varmint battery, acquired in part for the calibers and in part for the guns which happened to be in those calibers.

I currently have .22 Hornets (a Ruger No.3 and a T/C barrel), .221 Fireball (Rem XP-100) .222Rems (a Rem 600 and a T/C barrel), .223 Rem (Mini 14) and a .22-250 (Win M70 Varmint).

For me, each one has a niche where it is not only useful, but superior in some way.
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Old February 6, 2023, 06:19 PM   #50
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Quote:
I had a rack full of Groundhog gun
Now that's funny! I have 4 varmint rifles, a 22-250, a 223, a 218 Bee, and a 22 Hornet. I started out with the 22-250, the others were left to me by friends when they died. If you had just started out with a 22-250, you would have room for whole bunch more guns! Not razzing you, just that I feel the 22-250 is the best varmint caliber anyone could want.
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