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View Poll Results: Who is using a red dot on your carry gun?
I am using an MRDS for carry/duty and have been for a more than a year 5 8.77%
I just started using an MRDS for carry/duty this year 5 8.77%
I'm considering it, but have not started yet 13 22.81%
I have no interest 34 59.65%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 12, 2019, 05:15 PM   #51
dyl
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I know they are all the rage.

I mostly carry a pocket pistol so it's a no go.

I have dabbled by setting up a full sized potential home defense pistol Glock 17 equivalent with an RMR. I don't like the clutter and the demand for a perfect presentation to pick up the red dot. I'm guilty of enjoying multiple brands with multiple grip angles. I can get better data during the presentation from seeing the front sight's dot in relation to the rear dots when they are way off early in the presentation.

And I know my personality - perfectionist. I'd hesitate when I should be going for acceptable accuracy at speed. So while I have a red dot, haven't warmed up to it. So many things to practice, so little time.

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Old October 12, 2019, 05:50 PM   #52
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Practice is good, training is good.
Quote from my post #47
Of course training, and practice are good, even necessary. Never said it wasn't.

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And none of this changes the fact that having a red dot doesn't stop you from point or reflexive shooting.
True, however if one becomes dependant on seeing a dot they will tend to waste precious time in a high stress situation looking for one if it isn't there, or where it's "supposed" to be. Human nature. It would be important to train without the dot. Especially if it can be done randomly without knowledge of when it will or will not work.
Thus again, for me it K.I.S.S..
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Old October 12, 2019, 05:55 PM   #53
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The dot is a substitute/supplement for the iron sights. You can use both sights and not use sights. Someone can become "dependent" on always seeing the sights. You have to practice both sighted and unsighted fire, regardless of using irons or a red dot.

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Old October 12, 2019, 09:54 PM   #54
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I have one..

The P320 Compact RX with a X-Compact Grip Module.. it has Talon Grips and a Keres Dynamic Pro Action Flat Trigger!

I carry it OWB at about 4:30'ish.

It is a joy to shoot and it is my Favorite gun..followed by my P365

P320 X-Compact RX 2.jpg

My Sig Sauer EDC Dynamic Duo:

EDC Pair 2.jpg
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Old October 14, 2019, 07:29 AM   #55
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Great posts guys. Thanks for keeping this on topic.

A few more really good videos from Sage Dynamics:

Making the switch to Handgun RDS

Does an RDS Make You Better With Irons?
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Old October 14, 2019, 07:40 AM   #56
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I checked out those 4 videos. I put tape on my front sight post and practiced drawing and luckily I have no issues getting the dot on target immediately. I would have been pissed if I was searching.

I have been doing things backwards with my MOS pistols. I've been putting the suppressor height sights on first and only when I'm comfortable with them do I put on a red dot. When I get a G45 I will do the opposite.
Nice! It sounds like you are doing good training. Thanks for commenting about your experience.
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Old October 14, 2019, 07:54 AM   #57
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I have a M&P-9 with a delta point mounted but I have no desire to carry it. It's a whole other training issue... I'm more efficient with irons than a red dot on a pistol.
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Yeah, I agree. I just don't care to put the time in though. There are definite benefits... but you wont see me mounting a dot and bastardizing my carry 1911 ever. I'll just run it as I have it forever.
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Takes PRACTICE and it is NOT a magical cure for making shooting better. But with the proper investment in training I think it's the future.
Great posts guys. You do have to put the time in and train properly to get the advantages on an optical sight. If you are not willing to do that, you won't get the benefits.

How long does it take the average shooter to learn front sight focus? Sight alignment and sight picture? Proper grip? Recoil control? Proper trigger control? You have to train to learn the proper techniques. A few weeks or even a few months of shooting isn't enough.

What about unlearning skills you're already learned? Has anyone here every tried to change their stance? I'm still fighting my many years of reinforcing neuron pathways and sometimes fall into a Weaver stance when I really want isosceles. That doesn't mean I stop trying to correct it. I have to keep reinforcing the new way I want to train.

To paraphrase Rob Leatham, shooting handgun accurately is simple, it's just not easy. The same thing applies to red dot sighting.
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Old October 14, 2019, 08:14 AM   #58
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Understood. However, the slide top still has length--and even when using a rear iron it's only a "peripheral awareness" (since we can't focus on both). If it's possible to bring a red dot up with proper alignment without using any kind of co-witnessing with irons--why wouldn't you be able to do the same with a front bright post? Not trying to be purposefully obtuse.
The main advantage of a red dot sight is focus on the target, not the sight(s). This is intuitive. Guns are the only weapons we use where we focus on the tool and not the threat. Millions of years of evolution taught us focus on the threat. Our fight or flight responses have us focus on the threat. Rocks, clubs, spears, knives, bows, etc, all are used by focusing on the target/threat. Throw a ball or frisbee, where do you focus? Punch something, where you you focus? Hit a nail with a hammer, where do you focus? Red dot sights whether they are on a handgun, or long gun, allow us to target focus efficiently and effectively.

OK, so say we are focused on the threat and have a big dot tritium front sight, or a big neon glowing fiber optic sight, or something similar. That is helpful in allowing us to orient the gun in a peripheral sense. It was a good solution when we didn't have a better way to do it. Using the iron sights with a target focus is what some folks refer to as shooting through the sights. It's fine at very close range. Using the slide itself as a guide in your periphery may even be effective at close ranges. These are good skills to practice and be familiar with.

The red dot is a better way to do it. You have a nice crisp and clear reticle appearing in the same plane as your target. You focus on the target and the pipper is there. You don't look at the reticle, you look at the target. The reticle just there, on the target and very clear. Like a virtual laser dot.

The red dot also gives you a more precise aiming point at distance, and again you are concentrating on the target, not the sight(s). A big bright front sight can't do that. The further the target, the further out of focus your front sight will be when you are focused on the target or vice versa.

Sighting accurately with red dot also only requires three things to be aligned: your eye, the dot and the target. The latter two are clear in your vision. The dot doesn't even have to be in the center of the optic. It could be all the way to one side or in the top corner, etc. If you see the dot, that's where the bullet will be going when you press the trigger.

Iron sights require four things to be aligned: your eye, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target (or in your example; your eye, the rear of the slide, the front sight or front of the slide, and the target) Only one of those can be in sharp focus, and if you are being ambushed in an attack, it will be the target, regardless of your training.
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Old October 14, 2019, 08:39 AM   #59
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True, however if one becomes dependant on seeing a dot they will tend to waste precious time in a high stress situation looking for one if it isn't there, or where it's "supposed" to be. Human nature. It would be important to train without the dot. Especially if it can be done randomly without knowledge of when it will or will not work.
Yes, that is very true and important.


Optics failure or sight picture blockage remediation techniques:

Handgun Optic Failure Aiming Techniques

Improved Handgun Optic Blockage Aiming Method


.
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Old October 14, 2019, 12:17 PM   #60
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Red dot or more accurately, reflex sights are not essential to accomplishing threat-focus. Point shooting also accomplishes the same. While the intended use of reflex sights is focus in the target's plane, the frame of the glass and the colored tint that is necessary for reflecting the "dot" (diode light) can both obscure the target and cause the brain to refocus on the sight, particularly the frame around the glass. The colored tint and the glass itself reduces light transmission significantly and is especially a problem in low light situations. Compare this to point shooting where the entire gun is potentially not even in view (1/4 hip position) or is in the periphery (3/4 hip). Of course, point shooting has its own even more serious drawbacks. For a 25 yard shot, slow aimed fire, the red dot reflex sight is clearly a big advantage. For a 3-yard snap shot, point shooting delivers all the advantages than reflex sights are only aiming for.
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Old October 14, 2019, 12:56 PM   #61
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Red dot or more accurately, reflex sights are not essential to accomplishing threat-focus.
Nobody is saying that they are essential. I certainly am not. I am suggesting that they may be advantageous, but I would not say essential. Not even on a long gun.

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Point shooting also accomplishes the same.
I mentioned above that peripheral sighting is a good skill to practice and be familiar with. However, shooting using an MRDS or iron sights is provably more accurate that shooting without a sight(s).

The question is can you shoot to produce hits quickly and accurately enough under stress to stop an attack? Point shooting is one proposed solution to that problem. Red dots are another. (and threat focused "shooting through the sights" is yet another) It's up to the individual to do some serious honest testing and decide which is preferable. Perhaps it's not a one answer question.

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While the intended use of reflex sights is focus in the target's plane, the frame of the glass and the colored tint that is necessary for reflecting the "dot" (diode light) can both obscure the target and cause the brain to refocus on the sight, particularly the frame around the glass. The colored tint and the glass itself reduces light transmission significantly and is especially a problem in low light situations.
That's an interesting point. Is there any science behind this?

Quote:
Compare this to point shooting where the entire gun is potentially not even in view (1/4 hip position) or is in the periphery (3/4 hip). Of course, point shooting has its own even more serious drawbacks. For a 25 yard shot, slow aimed fire, the red dot reflex sight is clearly a big advantage. For a 3-yard snap shot, point shooting delivers all the advantages than reflex sights are only aiming for.
So why would having an MRDS mounted on a gun prevents one from using point shooting if necessary? Nothing about the sighting system seems to prevent using this tactic if it's prudent and appropriate.
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Old October 14, 2019, 08:32 PM   #62
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If it's possible to bring a red dot up with proper alignment without using any kind of co-witnessing with irons--why wouldn't you be able to do the same with a front bright post?
I just re-read this question and realized that the part I underlined wasn't actually answered.

I red dot or reflex sight uses an LED emitter that is approximately 1/2" behind a specially coated lens. The emitter projects the dot on that coating. You zero the sight so that the dot is between your eye and the desired point of impact on the target (let's ignore zero distance and ballistic curves for the moment). Once zeroed, due to the design of the optic lens, that dot will always appear between your eye and the bullet's point of impact. When you twist the sight slightly, that dot appears to move across the screen, but it is always between your eye and point of impact. The POI changed because you moved the gun and the dot moved along with the changed POI.

That is not true of a front iron sight. The front sight is fixed and you have to move it to be between your eye and the desired point of impact. Not only that, but you also need to align the gun's barrel with your eye using a third point of reference (usually the rear sight). The line from the eye to target must be aligned with the barrel of the gun. Since your iron sights are in line with the barrel and are your only accurate reference to barrel alignment, the line from the eye to target must be aligned with both the front and rear sights. Without both front and rear sights, you can't verify that alignment. It's basic geometry.

The dot is not fixed. It moves in relation to where your eye is due to the optical properties of the lense. In essence, your eye is moving the dot to where it needs it to be.

If you can't see the dot, it's because you moved it off the area of the lens, but in theory with a big enough lens you could turn the gun 45 degrees and the dot would still be between your eye and POI. The line from your eye to target would not even have to be aligned with the gun (as long as you could see through the sight's lens).


So to hit the target with a red dot, you need to simply move the POI (which always coincides with the properly zero'd dot) to the desired spot on the target.
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Old October 14, 2019, 11:17 PM   #63
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My simple mind tends to reduce things down to simple conclusions. Because the sight radius is so limited on a handgun--small changes in sighting alignment tend to have a greater impact than they would say on a long gun with 26" barrel. Add to that the typical reflex sight dot requires a precision alignment within the field of the glass (a red dot generally is "where the dot is is where the bullet goes") AND is higher up from the center axis of the bore--more potential induced error the way I see it. However, I'm the first to admit that I don't train enough, so maybe I'd "feel the love" with more practice. : )
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:03 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by DMK View Post
... So why would having an MRDS mounted on a gun prevents one from using point shooting if necessary? Nothing about the sighting system seems to prevent using this tactic if it's prudent and appropriate.
That's right. I'm not arguing against the MRDS. I have one. I'm just pointing out that they are not the only way to prevent or avoid focus on the near field plane. I agree with the idea that irons present a challenge in that they draw the shooter's focus off the threat and into that near field plane where the sights are. Obviously, this can work very well as it has been for a long time and front sight focus is the foundation of technique that can get good results -- but it does present a challenge that possibly could be overcome by technology. Clearly, MRDS are one technology where we are attempting to overcome that challenge. It doesn't work perfectly. To work ideally, we'd have to not shove anything between our eyes and the target. A semi-transparent object like a MRDS screen is similar to nothing, but not very. A red dot reflected off eyeglass lenses would be much better. If you could point your gun from the 3/4 hip position, but see a dot in your glasses that indicates where the muzzle was pointed, that would avoid the need to shove the gun, the MRDS frame, and the tinted glass between your eyes and the target. Maybe instead of a dot, a line would be even better. This kind of augmented reality tech isn't produced as a commercial product yet, but it is within reach. And so is tech that would allow a target to be selected and also controls the sear release when the bore is properly aligned. MRDS are what's practical now, but they don't quite accomplish all they set out to do.
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Old October 15, 2019, 06:24 AM   #65
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... Add to that the typical reflex sight dot requires a precision alignment within the field of the glass ...
Consider the precise alignment required to keep a front sight post centered within the notch of a rear sight.

Assuming it is where you want it on the target, the reticle of the red dot can be anywhere on that piece of glass for an accurate shot. It does not need to be centered in that piece of glass.


Quote:
However, I'm the first to admit that I don't train enough, so maybe I'd "feel the love" with more practice. : )
Yes, that would help. Unlike Red Dots on long guns, MRDS on handguns are not for the casual shooter. It requires training and practice. You need to master good grip, good kinesthetics and good recoil control to see the benefits.
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Old October 15, 2019, 06:52 AM   #66
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That's right. I'm not arguing against the MRDS. I have one. I'm just pointing out that they are not the only way to prevent or avoid focus on the near field plane.
You're right of course. There are technical solutions (hardware/equipment/tools) and there are tactics solutions (brain software/training/practice). They can and should overlap.

Quote:
I agree with the idea that irons present a challenge in that they draw the shooter's focus off the threat and into that near field plane where the sights are. Obviously, this can work very well as it has been for a long time and front sight focus is the foundation of technique that can get good results -- but it does present a challenge that possibly could be overcome by technology. Clearly, MRDS are one technology where we are attempting to overcome that challenge. It doesn't work perfectly. To work ideally, we'd have to not shove anything between our eyes and the target. A semi-transparent object like a MRDS screen is similar to nothing, but not very. A red dot reflected off eyeglass lenses would be much better. If you could point your gun from the 3/4 hip position, but see a dot in your glasses that indicates where the muzzle was pointed, that would avoid the need to shove the gun, the MRDS frame, and the tinted glass between your eyes and the target. Maybe instead of a dot, a line would be even better. This kind of augmented reality tech isn't produced as a commercial product yet, but it is within reach. And so is tech that would allow a target to be selected and also controls the sear release when the bore is properly aligned. MRDS are what's practical now, but they don't quite accomplish all they set out to do.
I agree. The small screens we have are very much a compromise. We want the advanced sighting system, but we want it small, unobtrusive and even concealable.

A large virtual (holographic?) screen with a reticle presented in front of us would be a game changer. That's a long leap from where we are today though. Current red dots are pretty simple devices actually. They are really just taking advantage of the known physics of reflections on a piece of clear glass.
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Old October 17, 2019, 03:56 AM   #67
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Lasergrips/sites and/or hi viz/night sites are far useful/user friendly than a red dot/holo sites on a carry gun IMHO.
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Old October 18, 2019, 06:09 PM   #68
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I've been running a Trijicon RMR on my "milled" Glock 21 for about 2 years now.

There definitely was a learning curve but once the "sight alignment" was burned into muscle memory there have been zero issues with picking up the red dot.

As some have stated, there were concerns regarding the "height" of the sight as it sits on the slide...obviously Glock does not make a G-21 in an MOS version so having the slide milled was the way to go. As a result, the sight sits lower, fits tighter and and feels to be a much more durable mounting solution.

My eyes are not what they used to be as I have aged...my reason for adding the RMR was due to my need to stay accurate (to the standard I hold myself to) beyond 15 yards. I found no issue with combat shooting for close quarters work and after mounting the RMR there was a significant difference in my consistency at longer ranges.

These were my reasons, obviously others may different opinions, good luck with the process!
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Old October 19, 2019, 11:47 AM   #69
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Thanks for your comments BrthrB. It's good to hear from someone who's been using one for a few years.

I'm curious, with your experience with it, do you trust your RDS equipped Glock for conceal carry? Or if not CC, do you use it for home defense?
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Old October 20, 2019, 08:25 AM   #70
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I use my G-21 for duty carry in my job as a LEO. It is a little large, for my tastes, to use daily as CCW.

I am trying to figure which gun I will have milled next, G-30S or G-19 to use for CCW.

A fellow LEO who trains/instructs with me carries his G-19 MOS with an RMR daily and has no issues concealing it. His primary carry is a kydex type OWB holster.
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Old October 20, 2019, 10:27 AM   #71
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Thanks. That you and your fellow officer carry RMRs on your duty guns says a lot.
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Old November 14, 2019, 10:36 PM   #72
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MRDS CARRY

This is an interesting thread. I haven’t seen much actual real world usage discussed. I was unsure about pistol optics because I did not like the closed in effect caused by the shell I felt it would effect my ability to acquire the target, think like looking through a scope. Everything around the small area through the scope is blocked.
So of course I went out and got one. In no small part due to the fact a girl at a handgun class I was in had one on a Glock and shot like she had guided bullets. The instant I used it I was in love. It’s like cheating. Put the dot on target and shoot. Time to put sights on target, align sights and align with target compared to put dot on bad guy?
I now have four carry guns. Archon type R, sig X Carry, Walther Q5 steel frame and a 229 legion all with optics. The Q and Type R have a shield rms, the X carry an rmr and the 229 a Romeo. You can go on about what you think using a red dot will do or what problems it may cause ... low light ... extra training whatever blah blah. Don’t agree with any of it. The moment is used one I find it easier and faster to acquire a target. I haven’t found any down side. It also has not made any difference in how well it shoot on iron sights. The shield RMSc especially is excellent. It’s small, light and the lens is very clear.
As far as the concerns about reliability what are you doing with your gun?! I carry every day and the x carry 90% of the time. I don’t think I’ve even scratched it much less any sort of thing that would damage the rmr and that’s Owb. Unless you are John Wick I doubt its an issue.
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Old November 14, 2019, 11:34 PM   #73
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How then, does a red dot on a pistol compare with a laser grip for a pistol?

Both would draw your focus to the target. The red dot requires a nearly perfect presentation. The laser does not. The laser does not give feedback if you are off target and the background is far away.

But I think for focusing on the target, the laser might even do a better job because there is *nothing* to focus on back at your end of the pistol.
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Old November 15, 2019, 09:46 AM   #74
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It’s like cheating. Put the dot on target and shoot.
Thanks for your comments EnoughGUN. I agree.

Quote:
You can go on about what you think using a red dot will do or what problems it may cause ... low light ... extra training whatever blah blah. Don’t agree with any of it. The moment is used one I find it easier and faster to acquire a target. I haven’t found any down side. It also has not made any difference in how well it shoot on iron sights.
I know some have issues with "finding the dot", etc. I took to it very quickly myself. I think the key is kinesthetics. Having a good grip, good presentation, and good alignment of the gun with your eye is the key. That is critical with both irons and red dot, but you just notice it more with the red dot. That is why if you can get good with a red dot, you will also be getting better with irons.
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Old November 15, 2019, 10:06 AM   #75
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How then, does a red dot on a pistol compare with a laser grip for a pistol?
The laser does have an advantage in special situations where you can not get the gun up to your line of sight. There are various situations where this can be imagined, but personally I think they are rare situations. The laser is also useful for night vision. Again, not generally a common need for most, but is a real need for some.

Often I think folks try to rationalize the need for a laser due to its lower cost and the fact that they have not practiced enough with irons or a red dot to be come proficient. I don't say this to insult anyone, we all have a lot to learn or we wouldn't be here looking for knowledge. We just have to be brutally honest with ourselves about what we are training, why we are training and how are we progressing with that training. When something doesn't work, is it because it's a bad technique or design, or are we just doing it wrong? When something seems to work right, is it really a better technique or design, or are we experiencing a cognitive bias because we like it?

Quote:
Both would draw your focus to the target. The red dot requires a nearly perfect presentation. The laser does not. The laser does not give feedback if you are off target and the background is far away.
Yes, the red dot do require prefect presentation and alignment. So do irons. We just fine tune iron sight alignment on draw without realizing it. Which is better, presenting the gun, getting alignment immediately on obtaining a sight picture and pressing the shot, or presenting, fine tuning sight alignment after getting a sight picture, then pressing the shot? The former is faster, but only after putting in the time with good practice and getting good kinesthetic alignment on every draw. The latter is easier and quicker to learn.

I have used lasers for many years and still do use them on a couple J-frame revolvers and subcompact autos. I have them mainly to give me some help with low light targeting and the laser is zeroed to coincide with my iron sight alignment at 15yards. I present the handgun as I would when using iron sights and if due to poor lighting, I can't see my sights to align them, the laser is there to assist with my alignment on target. I suppose it's my plan B to my plan A, which is iron sight alignment. I say that because if I had the choice for those subcompact weapons, I would replace those lasers with red dot sights and the red dots would be my plan A, with plan B being the iron sights.

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But I think for focusing on the target, the laser might even do a better job because there is *nothing* to focus on back at your end of the pistol.
Again, that requires time with the optic and good practice. Lots of folks get distracted by the "scope" when using red dots on both hand guns and long guns. We need to train that out with lots of target focused practice. It's just bad habit that needs to be 'unlearned' and 'relearned' correctly.

In my personal experience and opinion, the red dot reticle is much easier and faster to acquire than a laser.
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Last edited by DMK; November 15, 2019 at 10:28 AM.
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