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Old August 5, 2019, 02:28 PM   #26
bfoosh006
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Fortunately, AR15's have a "Mil_Spec" guideline ... that guideline is adhered to pretty darn well ( give or take with the specs )

Some of the dirt cheap Chinese made parts can be downright horrible.
Those parts are marketed, and sold with very little respect towards any guideline... ( Huge gas ports, sub standard materials used... )

You have made a very good choice with PSA and Anderson.

I have assm.d numerous of them.


However !! If you ever decide to assm. a Large Frame AR ( 308 / 6.5CM ) , with all your spare time... you will find out how much a Mil-Spec guideline would make the assm. easier.

With no guideline on Large Frame AR's ... it is a "free-for all" on various parts.

Please, let us know how it works out for you !

Thanks !
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Old August 6, 2019, 04:50 PM   #27
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Low price = malfunctions?
Uh huh.

Low price = 'cheap' = 'cutting corners' = 'unreliable junk,' just when you need to run the rifle hard and need it to be reliable.

If the point of the purchase is to have an occasional range toy and mostly a Safe Queen, then it doesn't matter. Go cheapo.

If you're looking for something you might actually have to fight with one day, then look at something in the Top Tier ARs.
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Old August 6, 2019, 05:20 PM   #28
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Where is the transition between occasional range toy and something you might actually fight with? What's the official number for that? What counts as running it hard?
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Old August 6, 2019, 05:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by agtman View Post
Uh huh.

Low price = 'cheap' = 'cutting corners' = 'unreliable junk,' just when you need to run the rifle hard and need it to be reliable.

If the point of the purchase is to have an occasional range toy and mostly a Safe Queen, then it doesn't matter. Go cheapo.

If you're looking for something you might actually have to fight with one day, then look at something in the Top Tier ARs.
I have found that "You get what you pay for." is mostly just a platitude that encourages people to spend their money unnecessarily. Anyone who has gotten bids on roofing installation, replacement windows, new deep well pump, etc., will find that quality is not in proportion to cost. That is why I asked about parts for an AR. Now if you have actually built multiple inexpensive AR's and multiple AR's with the most expensive parts and found that it made a significant difference, I would really like to hear about your experiences. So, how many cheapo's have you built that you found wanting? What parts malfunctioned and what was the mode of malfunction? Or, did you miss the part of my original post where I only wanted those who had actually built AR's with cheaper parts to respond?

Last edited by dahermit; August 6, 2019 at 05:50 PM.
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Old August 6, 2019, 05:47 PM   #30
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If you're looking for something you might actually have to fight with one day, then look at something in the Top Tier ARs.
I don't know why so many people fantasize about dooms day scenarios (I know I did at one time), but at my age (76 with multiple health problems), I am aware that my "fighting days" are very much over (save for possibly expendale rear guard...I will wait for the enemy in my walker ), and the AR I am in the process of building (mags, lower receiver bought, the rest on the way), is for the fun of assembly and to avert boredom as I think most of the other people who are building AR's would admit if they were honest.
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Old August 6, 2019, 06:31 PM   #31
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I have found that "You get what you pay for." is mostly just a platitude that encourages people to spend their money unnecessarily.
You've plagiarized my unwritten thought. This is especially true in AR world. There are sleek billet parts that cost lots of money, but don't feel or function any better than cheap government style parts. A plain vanilla A2 rifle is amongst the most comfortable rifles I've ever shouldered. I bought a 45 degree safety as an expression of my talent in convincing myself I need things I don't need. It took more effort to use and the switch surface was uncomfortably sharp; it was worse than government style safeties.

On the other hand, if you know what you like and it costs a couple dollars more, it may not make sense to get something you don't prefer. I like a decent quality barrel because that part actually influences accuracy, and I don't want to deal with an awful trigger. That doesn't mean a Geissele is worth $240 even though I like them very much, but it may mean that the cheapest government style trigger isn't worth dealing with every time you take a shot.

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Old August 6, 2019, 06:43 PM   #32
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* * * I like a decent quality barrel because that part actually influences accuracy, and I don't want to deal with an awful trigger. That doesn't mean a Geissele is worth $240 even though I like them very much, but it may mean that the cheapest government style trigger is worth dealing with every time you take a shot.
Dude, why default to a crappy gommit trigger? 'Every time you take a shot' ... WTH?

LaRue's MBT2 unit is as good as Geissele's SSA trigger and half the price - sometimes well less than half if you catch it on sale.
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Old August 6, 2019, 06:51 PM   #33
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Dude, why default to a crappy gommit trigger? 'Every time you take a shot' ... WTH?
Thank you. I had a missing negative in that sentence.

Quote:
LaRue's MBT2 unit is as good as Geissele's SSA trigger and half the price - sometimes well less than half if you catch it on sale.
I dislike the Larue for some specific reasons I'm happy to address if it is pertinent, but it is a solid item at a great price.
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Old August 6, 2019, 07:25 PM   #34
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I have found that "You get what you pay for." is mostly just a platitude that encourages people to spend their money unnecessarily. Anyone who has gotten bids on roofing installation, replacement windows, new deep well pump, etc., will find that quality is not in proportion to cost. That is why I asked about parts for an AR. Now if you have actually built multiple inexpensive AR's and multiple AR's with the most expensive parts and found that it made a significant difference, I would really like to hear about your experiences. So, how many cheapo's have you built that you found wanting? What parts malfunctioned and what was the mode of malfunction?Or, did you miss the part of my original post where I only wanted those who had actually built AR's with cheaper parts to respond?


I don't build. I buy ...

From Top Tier makers, most notably BCM, Colt, DD, LT, Noveske, et al.

Clint Smith said it best - so to paraphrase for the acutely unawares:

'If you expect to fight with your AR someday, or even think using it in the 'gravest extreme' of circumstances might be a remote possibility, you go out and buy a Top Tier AR. Then you buy another T.T. AR. Why? Because two is one; one is none ...

Then you go buy a third T.T. AR to serve as a parts source for the first two.'

So that approach is like an insurance policy ...

Building on the 'cheap' is for lazy Sunday afternoons at the range. Not for serious use.

Last edited by agtman; August 6, 2019 at 07:39 PM.
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Old August 6, 2019, 08:03 PM   #35
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However !! If you ever decide to assm. a Large Frame AR ( 308 / 6.5CM ) , with all your spare time... you will find out how much a Mil-Spec guideline would make the assm. easier.
There is no "mil-spec" for the xx308 platforms; part of the reason there tends to be compatibility problems.
Quote:
LaRue's MBT2 unit is as good as Geissele's SSA trigger and half the price - sometimes well less than half if you catch it on sale.
I definitely disagree with this.

My opinion based on building quite a few of them--if you stick to the basic cartridges (5.56/7.62 x 51) chances are pretty good even the low priced stuff will perform adequately. Once you get into non-standard cartridges--or venture into cartridges that are wildcats or nobody makes a commercial barrel for--that's when the extra money invested in top shelf parts usually starts to show their value IMO. Looked at another way--if you want a solid performing build that can do 1.5 to 1 MOA @100 even cheaper builds sometimes approach that--sometimes not. I tend to not be satisfied these days if I can't get that down to .5 and under with my handloads--but to do that it may take spending time and money tuning your components.

Over time and many builds--I eventually learned that in most cases--but not all--that getting the right premium-priced parts more than make up for the additional costs when compared to the piles of ammo that you might burn through trying to get good results--but if good to you is 2 MOA or so than you probably don't need to spend that much.
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Old August 6, 2019, 08:57 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by agtman View Post


I don't build. I buy ...

From Top Tier makers, most notably BCM, Colt, DD, LT, Noveske, et al.

Clint Smith said it best - so to paraphrase for the acutely unawares:

'If you expect to fight with your AR someday, or even think using it in the 'gravest extreme' of circumstances might be a remote possibility, you go out and buy a Top Tier AR. Then you buy another T.T. AR. Why? Because two is one; one is none ...

Then you go buy a third T.T. AR to serve as a parts source for the first two.'

So that approach is like an insurance policy ...

Building on the 'cheap' is for lazy Sunday afternoons at the range. Not for serious use.
I am 76 years old, had cancer last summer (in remission at this point), have diabetes, heart disease (one angioplasty, two bypasses, new aortic valve), high blood pressure. So in regard to:
Quote:
Building on the 'cheap' is for lazy Sunday afternoons at the range. Not for serious use.
How much "serious use" do you think I can reasonably expect?
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Old August 6, 2019, 09:00 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
There is no "mil-spec" for the xx308 platforms; part of the reason there tends to be compatibility problems.
I definitely disagree with this.

My opinion based on building quite a few of them--if you stick to the basic cartridges (5.56/7.62 x 51) chances are pretty good even the low priced stuff will perform adequately. Once you get into non-standard cartridges--or venture into cartridges that are wildcats or nobody makes a commercial barrel for--that's when the extra money invested in top shelf parts usually starts to show their value IMO. Looked at another way--if you want a solid performing build that can do 1.5 to 1 MOA @100 even cheaper builds sometimes approach that--sometimes not. I tend to not be satisfied these days if I can't get that down to .5 and under with my handloads--but to do that it may take spending time and money tuning your components.

Over time and many builds--I eventually learned that in most cases--but not all--that getting the right premium-priced parts more than make up for the additional costs when compared to the piles of ammo that you might burn through trying to get good results--but if good to you is 2 MOA or so than you probably don't need to spend that much.
Have I missed something when it comes to AR triggers? I was under the impression that Army and Marines routinely hit 500 yard targets with mil spec, issue triggers installed.
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Old August 6, 2019, 09:44 PM   #38
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I've read so much about how bad milspec AR triggers are, that when I finally put mine together and shot it, I was pleasantly surprised. It's just not that bad. I'm easy though. I adapt.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:52 AM   #39
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Have I missed something when it comes to AR triggers? I was under the impression that Army and Marines routinely hit 500 yard targets with mil spec, issue triggers installed.
There might be some "mil-spec" triggers that work well in the 308 platforms--but there is no military "308 program" for production of AR's in 308 and hence no trigger specs. Most of the time the "mil spec" triggers that work in AR 15's will work in the 308 AR's--but not always; different lower, different bolt, different firing pin etc. My "definitely disagree with this" comment had to do with the comparison of the LaRue trigger to the SSA by another poster.

There's a lot of junk out there being sold in the firearm industry. It's getting to be very difficult to tell what is made where and Chinese soft steel and wishy washy tolerances have permeated much of the industry. I think there are basically two camps of shooters who polarize around what they consider "mil-spec reliability": those who want an AR that will be basically the equivalent of a battle rifle that will stay in the fight while shooting suppressive fire (I have only one AR that is built to "full" mil-spec, and it gets very hot very fast when dumping multiple magazine quickly)--and those that casually take their shots and "shoots most of the time with no hick-ups."

Bottom line, build what you want using whatever parts you want--I'm always learning. Just like the guy behind the finger that pulls the trigger has a huge effect on the accuracy of the rifle--so too it follows that the knowledge of the builder has a big effect as well on the outcome of the build. The more I build different chambered AR's, generally the more I invest in quality parts; mostly because I save time, money and headaches in the long run. But I do have a "cheapskate" streak in me that loves getting by on the cheap when I can, just that adjust expectations accordingly.
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Old August 7, 2019, 06:02 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dahermit
Have I missed something when it comes to AR triggers? I was under the impression that Army and Marines routinely hit 500 yard targets with mil spec, issue triggers installed.
I'm guessing they mostly have better eyes, hands, etc. than most of us with fewer years ahead of us than behind us.

I find a long, and rough single stage trigger hard to enjoy. I prefer a two stage trigger with a stout trigger spring for a 2.5 to 3.5 first stage and a light disconnector spring for a very gentle hitch in the trigger travel before the break. That's easy to get on a Geissele.

It's impossible to get on a Larue; they don't seem to grasp the idea behind two stage trigger tuning, and there is a reason so many Larue trigger enthusiasts otherwise prefer single stage triggers. The Larue behaves like one. The parts show good quality and should be durable, but the riveted disconnector rules out some beneficial tuning.

I can set up a Foxtrot Mike two stage trigger ($80 at Brownells) the same way I set up a Geissele. PSA sells what looks like the Foxtrot Mike unit for $60.
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Old August 7, 2019, 06:08 AM   #41
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I find a long, and rough single stage trigger hard to enjoy. I prefer a two stage trigger with a stout trigger spring for a 2.5 to 3.5 first stage and a light disconnector spring for a very gentle hitch in the trigger travel before the break. That's easy to get on a Geissele. It's impossible to get on a Larue; they don't seem to grasp the idea behind two stage trigger tuning, and there is a reason so many Larue trigger enthusiasts otherwise prefer single stage triggers. The Larue behaves like one. The parts show good quality and should be durable, but the riveted disconnector rules out some beneficial tuning.
Precisely my take on the LaRue, well said.

I recently purchased my first hiperfire trigger group--a bit pricey but so far have been very impressed with it.
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Old August 10, 2019, 04:21 PM   #42
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I have no fantasy of some sort of doomsday scenario. In fact, quite the opposite of it. I live in fear that our fragile national society and infrastructure will collapse.

I went to New Orleans as a very young PFC and it radically altered my world view.

And if I defending my home; I want something from either BCM or Daniel Defense, or maybe Colt, that I've run like hell through as many weekend tactical fantasty band camp courses as I could afford. Something that has been subjected to 1,000 round count classes and works.

I don't want to be reliant on my sub $500 PSA build.

Be Prepared.
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Old August 10, 2019, 06:22 PM   #43
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I don't want to be reliant on my sub $500 PSA build.
Many here have missed the point I was trying to make. I will try one more time, but I will not expect the majority to understand.

If one has not built several cheap AR's (one is not enough for a legitimate comparison) and had them fail, built several AR's with expensive parts and not have them fail, then one is only assuming that cheaper equals poor quality. I am not really interested in opinions that are not based on actual experience...I can get those from Johnny Sixpack down at the local bar.
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Old August 10, 2019, 06:40 PM   #44
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My Andersen/PSA builds have not failed. But, I haven't put more than ~1,000 rounds through the 5.56 carbines and have shot like 20 rounds through my 6.8 SPC amalgamation.
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Old August 11, 2019, 08:06 PM   #45
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It's August, the official 'do-nuthin' vacation month! ... Aren't lazy Sunday afternoons at the range great?

Then we wake up, and there's this thing called 'The Real World.'

Buy it right once - go top tier - and cry not at all.

You can thank me later.
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Old August 12, 2019, 01:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by agtman View Post
It's August, the official 'do-nuthin' vacation month! ... Aren't lazy Sunday afternoons at the range great?

Then we wake up, and there's this thing called 'The Real World.'

Buy it right once - go top tier - and cry not at all.

You can thank me later.
Your position/opinion is based on assumption, not data. Show me the stats where cheap build parts fail more often than expensive parts...that is how science works.
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Old August 22, 2019, 10:16 AM   #47
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I built a budget AR9 with an AR Stoner upper and an 80% lower with cheapo parts kits. After a few growing pains and a few tweaks, I am having a blast with it. Enough to finally get me to join USPSA. I have about $400 into the whole rig.
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Old August 22, 2019, 05:54 PM   #48
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I built a budget AR9 with an AR Stoner upper and an 80% lower with cheapo parts kits. After a few growing pains and a few tweaks, I am having a blast with it. Enough to finally get me to join USPSA. I have about $400 into the whole rig.
Yep, all you need to get killed trying to fight off a home invasion is just one 'growing pain' or 'tweak' that renders your basement-built, Bubba-special AR an inoperable jammomatic.

Going El-Cheapo can have bad consequences at the most inopportune times.

Word to the wise.
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Old August 22, 2019, 06:36 PM   #49
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Yep, all you need to get killed trying to fight off a home invasion is just one 'growing pain' or 'tweak' that renders your basement-built, Bubba-special AR an inoperable jammomatic.

Going El-Cheapo can have bad consequences at the most inopportune times.

Word to the wise.
Give me enough time I can get almost any rifle at any price point to jam--I'm just talented that way.
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Old August 22, 2019, 06:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by stagpanther
Give me enough time I can get almost any rifle at any price point to jam--I'm just talented that way.
That's why you need a 360 degree kill zone, concertina wire, land mines and a moat around your home. Go el-cheapo and you'll just be letting the home invaders know how unserious you are.
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