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Old July 26, 2009, 12:57 PM   #26
kirbythegunsmith
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Details

This might be an opportune time to remind shooters that any optic sight with typical adjustments noted to move "x" per click at 100 yd., needs 4 times that many clicks to move the same amount when 4 times closer i.e. 25 yd.

Some shooters do backwards math and figure that they need very few clicks to move a substantial amount at a very close distance, when in this one instance, shows the opposite:

optic with 1/4" click adj. at 100 yd. = 4 clicks to move an inch
same scope at 25 yards = 16 clicks to move an inch

Therefore, for example, if off 5 inches at 25 yards, you need 80 clicks to get on target. I have seen plenty of shooters move 2 or 3 clicks at a time at a 20 yard range and wonder why the impact has not appeared to move, but due to the adjustment only being altered 1/10-1/8" might be hard to visually spot in a shotgun target. Add any flinch or other shooter error and there will be a day wasted in that endeavor.

Keep these details in mind when any shooter is having trouble with prompt zeroing at a close distance. You should be able to measure from the very first careful shot and calculate an adjustment to be in the bull area for the next shot.

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Old July 26, 2009, 01:01 PM   #27
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although your group size seems to have differed since it was quoted to me before.
RBW, For the record, I must confess a few things... First, I never ever quantify my results with actual measurements. I never keep targets for comparison. A group can be 2 quick rounds or it may be several 5 or 6 round full loads. I have, on occasion had repeated bona fide tight groups where a cigarette pack covers 3 shots... RARE!!! But what I insist on to qualify myself as a meat hunter is to put any number of slugs into a typical pie plate at 60 yards. Yeah I get the "flier" but I am real hard on myself for those and do try to find the exact variable error that caused it.
I am no super shooter, But I am a fairly lazy guy who despises a drawn out blood trail. The only good blood trail is the one headed straight to my truck...
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:05 PM   #28
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Kirby, Are you pulling my leg? That is 180 out from my learnin... To move the POA/POI 1 inch at 100 is 4 so 200 is 2 and 400 is zero?
I am of a different boat load...
4 at 100 is 2 at 50 and 1 at 25 with anything under that needing sights.
Brent
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Old July 26, 2009, 03:07 PM   #29
kirbythegunsmith
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More clarification

HD, you are halfway to understanding, now.

4 clicks to the inch at 100 yards is 2 clicks/inch at 200 yards, but is ONE click per inch at 400 yards, since every doubling of distance reduces the click measurement by half.

Now tell me what the measurement is for one click at 800 yards. Don't peek, The answer is at the bottom of the post.

Then you might want to re-state your position on sight adjustment.















Figure it this way:
one inch at 25 yards has an included angle that must be able to have twice the amount of base of the isosceles triangle when the distance to the base is doubled, or trebled, or quadrupled- to make one inch at 25 yd. equivalent angle of sight adjustment the same as 2" at 50 yd., 3" at 75 yd., 4" at 100 yd., ad infinitum.





















2 inches per click at 800 yards for a 1/4" click scope at 100 yd. adjustment division.

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Old July 26, 2009, 03:56 PM   #30
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Hey Brent, just pokin at ya.

Us Shotgun guys have to stick together.
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Old July 26, 2009, 04:21 PM   #31
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Hogue 12" LOP Stock Significantly shorter than the factory stock. You can probably find it cheaper elsewhere.
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Old July 26, 2009, 07:29 PM   #32
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All shotgun shooters who actually hit something point the damn thing. NO ONE looks at the sights, unless shooting at something stationary; like a target or possibly a deer, when slugs are used....or maybe buck.

No trap or sheet shooter what actually shoots a high score ever looks at the sights on that thing. At least not consciously. I've often wondered why gun makers up those orange plastic sighs on shotguns to be used for flying targets.

I shoot my Parker Single Barrel Trap gun with both eyes wide open and my head held quite high. This way I can swing to the bird easier. I'm only slightly aware of pulling the trigger.

A shotgun is a short range weapon. If used as self defense it'll likely be used in a confined space. Since a miss can cause injury to others bird shot is always the best load.

If, however; one is in combat and knows that one will be shooting at people, then nothing smaller than no. 4 shot should be used. (cops here, load 4's) We found in Vietnam that a shotgun was a better forest penetrator than was the M-16. In VN guys often used buck. Shotguns were very popular for inclose fighting in the bush, but it took guys some time to come to this realization.

I liked the M-14 and hated to see it go.

For combat a shotgun is a wonderful weapon. I see those fancy sights, but can't for the life of me figger out their benefit, since one points a shotgun.

BTW: I don't understand why some of you guys get so excited! I've been shooting for way over 50 years and have shot just about everything that shoots, from machine guns, full auto weapons, canons, bloop guns to flint muskets, Sharps rifles, Winchesters of all kinds, a bunch of pistols. You may disagree with me; and that's fine. Shoot what you want, and with what you want, but I've been around the block in the shooting biz and have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.

I have to admit that my collection and my experience is pretty limited to iron and open sights. I use a scope on hunting rifles, of course, but I've never used a laser sight. When I left active duty the scoped M-16's and M-4's were just coming out. I have pistols with scopes, but don't like them. New fangled sights leave me cold, but that's not to mean that they aren't good for other shooters.

As for the few rude people out there; I suggest you lighten up. We are all gun nuts aren't we? Let's talk guns then and leave the invectives to ourselves.
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Old July 26, 2009, 07:33 PM   #33
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Did the heat shield do whatever it is a heat shield is supposed to do? (I don't think rattling counts as the purpose.)

Where's the bayonet? You know you want a bayonet. I think you are required to have a bayonet to offset the collapsible stock or pistol grip only.

I think you get the point. Remove the mall ninja stock, heat shield, and the red dot then go shoot it alot.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:55 PM   #34
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Kirby, 800 yards? I could put a brick on the gas peddle and a bungee on the steering and not hit ya! You done thru a rifle wrench into a shotgun situation!
Brent!
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Old July 27, 2009, 10:34 PM   #35
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Did the heat shield do whatever it is a heat shield is supposed to do? (I don't think rattling counts as the purpose.)
It did just what it's intended to do - no hot barrel to grab. Short barrels, especially thin-walled ones, have less mass than a standard one and get hot pretty quick. And no, it doesn't rattle.
Quote:
Where's the bayonet? You know you want a bayonet.
I have no interest in one.
Quote:
I think you are required to have a bayonet to offset the collapsible stock or pistol grip only.
Whatever.
Quote:
I think you get the point. Remove the mall ninja stock, heat shield, and the red dot then go shoot it alot.
Did you read my first post where I explained why I got the stock?
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Old July 28, 2009, 10:50 PM   #36
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I may not like red-dot sights, but a heat shield on a SG is pretty useful from my experiance of getting singed
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Old July 31, 2009, 11:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Quote:
Did the heat shield do whatever it is a heat shield is supposed to do? (I don't think rattling counts as the purpose.)
It did just what it's intended to do - no hot barrel to grab. Short barrels, especially thin-walled ones, have less mass than a standard one and get hot pretty quick. And no, it doesn't rattle.
Well, I've been through a few shotgun courses. Getting ready to be sent back to another by Uncle Sam. Shot hundreds of shells in the same day. Never needed a heat shield.

I admit I don't carry a shotgun (I carry an M4) but qual with an 870 (and an UMP 40) enough to maintain proficiency. Our agency puts almost all the fancy expensive contraptions on them you can imagine, including a mix of Eotechs, Aimpoints, and Trijicon scopes... even NVGs. Our shotguns have 14 inch barrels. Some have collapsible stocks but most have short length of pull stocks (I like the latter better).

Yet none of my firearms instructors--most of whom a gurus by any definition and some of whom are nationally recognized instructors and competitors-- have ever felt the need to put a heat shield on our shotguns. I figure the rest of you can get by without it also.
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:24 AM   #38
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Let me also add that at a younger age... far younger age actually... I've made most of the mistakes I now try to get you guys to avoid (pistol grip, heatshield etc).

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Old August 1, 2009, 11:29 AM   #39
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Maybe you posted it someplace but I don't see it..

What kind of barrel? What kind of slug?


Sabots in a smooth bore are not going to do much of anything good.

I use my own cast slugs that are sabot slugs and I can hit a 3lb coffee can every time... But if I was to slap a scope on it I'd probably be unhappy.
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Old August 1, 2009, 08:41 PM   #40
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It's a smooth bore, and I was shooting rifled slugs. I figured out one thing I was doing wrong with the sight; apparently, the lock screw only locks the elevation adjustment. You're supposed to adjust the elevation, lock it down, and then adjust the windage. I was trying to do both at the same time and then locking it. A few days ago I waited until the evening when it was near dark so I could see the laser spot from the bore sight, and then found that the sight adjustment was WAY off. I dialed it in and it should be reasonably close - probably as good as I need it to be for HD with 00 shells.
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:11 PM   #41
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First, I have made the mistake of skimping on optics. The money you save is never worth it.
Second, ditch the optic on a shotgun.

XS puts out some sweet sights for shotguns.
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Old August 1, 2009, 10:02 PM   #42
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Dangit - the ghost ring set doesn't have a banded front sight for the Mossy. It looks like I'd need to have a front sight ramp installed, which would probably end up costing as much or more than the optics did.
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Old August 1, 2009, 11:12 PM   #43
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mini mouse is so down for the shottty
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Old August 2, 2009, 06:32 PM   #44
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which would probably end up costing as much or more than the optics did.
Brings us back to skimping. Its not worth it man. Your gonna pay for it either way. Your going to buy another crappy optic that won't hold up, the total spent on stuff that doesn't last will be the same as the XS sights and a barrel with rifle sights.

Good luck
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Old August 3, 2009, 12:11 AM   #45
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Brings us back to skimping. Its not worth it man. Your gonna pay for it either way. Your going to buy another crappy optic that won't hold up, the total spent on stuff that doesn't last will be the same as the XS sights and a barrel with rifle sights.
+1, go with the ghost ring sights, XS if they make em for that gun. I have a set on my jungle country bear rifle (Marlin 1895) and love em.
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Old August 3, 2009, 12:54 AM   #46
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Can you put those riot sights on a mossberg? Never checked, but that should help with the standard sights being too low.
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Old August 3, 2009, 01:58 AM   #47
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When I want to hit a dove at 15 yards and he is sitting in a tree, I put his entire body above the bead with a bit of blue sky 'tween the 2. This results in a full hard hit. No rib, just a bead on a regular thin barrel. For a com shot at HD range, I am required to have the bead about on the "V" at the bottom of his ribs. This puts the shot payload about half way up the sternum... that is as good as I care to shoot in a hurry. No ghost ring, no laser nuttin...
Brent
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Old August 3, 2009, 02:39 AM   #48
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ist ask and ye shall git...
http://www.scopesandmore.meridian1.n...RSR-BS711545|0
Brent
but then it wont look like the one from COD4.... : (
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Old August 3, 2009, 05:43 AM   #49
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Entertaining

An entertaining thread.
About the holo sight. +1 about upgrading. Any time that I have tried - I'm a slow learner - to put an inexpensive "recoil proof" sight on a hard kicking gun, I have found that, yes, it was inexpensive but not the other. Also - how long had you had that holo? Batteries normally last a looong time.
The business about pointing a shotgun as opposed to using its sights being an outdated concept......not. I do agree that for the purpose of the OP and general slug use, that one aims the SG. The concept of pointing, however, is far from outdated - the description of trap/skeet use is right on. In fact, if you were to register at a wingshooting clinic such as at an Orvis facility, what you would be taught is the Churchill method - using a well fitted SG and pointing.
About the fit of this gun - it's unusual for a stock SG to be too long for an adult shooter. I always have to add to mine and I'm still always under my fitted length. The fact that the pad/butt catches during the mount does not necessarily mean that the stock is too long. The suggestion about fitting and trying a better pad is a good one.
30 sight in rounds in 60 minutes? Wow. With adjustments? You shoot a whole lot faster than I do. Don't know that that is a bad thing, just way different. Thirty aimed rounds at a range session would take me two or three hours. I don't like to rush.
About the use of birdshot for SD/HD - there's a thread about this down the page is this forum - a lively discussion. The debate continues about the use of birdshot. I, however, do not believe that it is a "newbie" error to think that an ounce and an eighth of 7 1/2s at 1200 fps or so is ineffective at close range (in my home - a small home - the longest open distance is five yards and out of a FC SG, anyone getting hit with that load is getting hit with almost 400 pellets all arriving at the same time in a pattern about as large as my closed fist. Don't tell me that would not be effective.) You do, however, have to pick the load for the situation. At 45 feet/15yds, I'd be using something heavier so as to concentrate pellet energy.
Pete
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Old August 3, 2009, 04:02 PM   #50
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I have ghost ring sights and have only adjusted them once... I did however paint the sights for an easier aim... but slugs, buck, and bird shot all shoot accurately... in fact ive killed a few birds with no problem... I do like the idea of the stock because I can get behind the pistol grip with the buttstock and I feel I have more control however I dont have one for fear of my sights not aligning right...
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