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Old April 24, 2009, 10:31 PM   #1
isanchez2008
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Shooting 6" high at 25yrds!!

:barf: Sounds crazy huh. Don't know what I screwed up or what to do. I loaded for my .40S&W rem. brass, win small pistol primer, AA #2 4.9gr, rainier leadsafe 180gr rnfp. The suggested max says 5.0gr so I don't wanna go higher yet. Anyone have any idea what the issue could be? Or a possible solution?
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:06 AM   #2
tiberius10721
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well if the max is 5.0 grains and your loading 4.9 grains then your pretty much at max!If I were you I would read your reloading manual very carefully and make sure you have the right over all length .Ive never reloading 40 sw but ive heard its a really touchy round when it comes to pressure!what is your start load in grains?
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:35 AM   #3
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My loading references list AA2 w/180 gr for a max anywhere from 5.0 to 5.6 gr.

I think the powder is much to fast for use with 180's. None of the IPSC shooter use AA2, while a lot use AA5 and several use AA7.
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Old April 25, 2009, 10:06 AM   #4
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Which reloading source says the max is 5.0 gr for AA#2 with that particular bullet? Most folks agree that the Lead Safe bullets should be loaded a little hotter than a standard lead bullet. I would try more #2 (maybe 5.3 gr) or go to a more appropriate powder for that bullet weight and caliber.

I think it's the internal ballistics that is causing your problem. The #2 has a fast burn rate, so you are getting a good portion of the recoil before the bullet has traveled very far. That tends to make the POI higher at the target. I'll bet if you could chronograph the load, you would be surprised how relatively slow it is.
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Old April 25, 2009, 10:27 AM   #5
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Is this off of a rest or freehand? Also are you using a center or 6 o'clock hold? How many shots into how small of a group were used to determine the 6" high POI at 25 yards?
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Old April 25, 2009, 10:29 AM   #6
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That is a classic "velocity lower than factory" sign to me.

No matter how many times I explain this to people, 75-80% don't believe me when I say the bullet is NOT out of the barrel before recoil begins. Slower loads shoot higher than faster loads. In my magnum revolvers, lighter-bullet loads (faster bullets) shoot lower than heavier bullet (slower) loads. The barrel starts moving upward as soon as the bullet starts moving. How much the barrel moves before the bullet leaves the muzzle determines how high the load prints. Obviously, adjustable sights can be regulated to a particular favorite load.

Short solution: You probably need a slower-burning powder to get a bit more speed and bring your groups down. I'm going to guess your .40's sights are regulated for something like a 180gr bullet @ 950 fps or so, or maybe 165s at 1100.
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:58 AM   #7
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I do not shoot .40 so, I do not know what the 'standard' bullet weight is. With my 9mm the sights are set standard with 124 grain bullets. I shoot 147 grain and the bullets are slower and take longer to get out the barrel. Thus the recoil lift on the barrel comes into play and I typically see 147 grain bullets hitting higher than 124 grain, or 115 grain.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:29 PM   #8
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Low velocity loads can shoot either high or low depending on trajectory at the range involved, but in general, velocity is self-compensating for elevation with a given bullet weight. As Hatcher points out, when you fire a low velocity load the average accelerating force when the bullet is in the barrel is low, but the bullet is in the barrel a long time, so the barrel comes up to about the same level as it would if greater acceleration of a faster round were elevating it over a shorter barrel time. It's not exact, but from handguns at 25 yards it is usually not a wild difference, assuming your grip on the gun is constant. If you let your grip relax for shooting a lighter load, then additional elevation may be expected.

What does make a big difference in POI is bullet weight. Increasing weight increases both the reaction force the gas pressure works against and increases barrel time because of the lower velocity that gas pushes a heavier bullet to. For that reason an increase in bullet weight will often cause several inches of POI elevation.

Many modern guns seem to have their sights set for lighter hollow point loads that are pushed by marketing as self-defense loads. There is a good chance your gun sights are set for the common 155 grain HP bullets, like the Federal Hydra-shock. If so, the 180's can be expected to shoot several inches high. Try the classic six o'clock hold on a 25 yard bullseye and see how that 180 does with them? Otherwise, use 155's.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:39 PM   #9
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I've been messing with a .40 since Jan and

At least for my gun (PT 100 .40) 25 yd groups are much better with a 200gr jhp than say a 135 jhp. Both loaded at mid-range charge. I've went through the following combos all loaded at mid-range with Bullseye
135 jhp and round nose
150 " "
165 " "
180 " "
200 " "

FWIW consistently better groups with 200gr jhp using 2 hand stance and sandbagging.
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:00 PM   #10
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In my humble opinion AA#2 is a crappy powder for .40 reloading. I'd go with AA#5 or 7.
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Old April 25, 2009, 04:25 PM   #11
isanchez2008
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Thanks for the replies. I could tell after the first two rounds that it was 6" high. I had only loaded 40 rounds with 4.9gr. I burned them all off of a pistol rest. They were all sky high. For my 180gr rainier rnfp's the max recommended by Accurate powder #2 is 5.0gr. I went with #2 because I haven't seen #5 or #7 at the store in months. OAL is 1.120" I have some bullseye and blue dot but I don't know if they are worth trying.
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Old April 25, 2009, 04:28 PM   #12
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Oh and P-990, Any powders you would recommend that are slower? How would you tell if they are compatible with Rainiers leadsafe bullets?
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:04 PM   #13
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There are loads with which you could use both Bullseye and Blue Dot. However, BE is much faster than the AA2 and would probably porduce similar results. The Blue Dot is very close to AA7 and should give you acceptable loads.

After trying a variety of powders with all weight bulllets in the 40SW, I settled and Hodgdon Universal for the 180 gr bullet. It does OK with 135gr, 150gr, and 165 gr bullets as well. 200gr bullets get VV N105.
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:09 PM   #14
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I'm relatively new here>>>>>>>>>>

What does this mean >>>>>>>>>> (200gr bullets get VV N105.) ????
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:01 PM   #15
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isanchez2008,

DOH! Got my mouth going, but I don't load .40. I DO load 9mm, and have had good luck with W-231 and Alliant Power Pistol. I have used P-P with 115gr Rainiers. This powder is ordinarily happiest doing full-tilt-boogie with jacketed bullets, but I found it worked well with the Rainiers at a little over the start load.

Others that might work are Winchester 231, Alliant Unique and Winchester Superfield.

Actually, 231 is surprisingly useful. I've loaded it in .38 Special, .44 Special, mild-loaded .44 Magnums, .45 ACP and 9mm. I believe Unique is also very versatile, but have never tried it.

Edit: Dragon, V-V stands for "Vihta-Vuori" powder.
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:16 PM   #16
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Thanx P-990

OK I suspected it was a powder.. Thanx
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Old April 27, 2009, 04:59 PM   #17
isanchez2008
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Well i tried 5.1gr of No.2 and my primers were flattening out a lot. So I moved on to the Blue dot at 7.6gr, they were 3" high at 25yrds. I didn't have time to try my 7.8, and 8.0 loads but I'm feeling pretty good about them. Thanks again for all the advice
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Old April 27, 2009, 07:37 PM   #18
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For the .40 with a plated bullet, you'll be quite pleased with Power Pistol at mid-level jacketed loadings. Use the search feature and you'll find that Power Pistol is a real favorite in the .40 caliber, try it and you'll find out why...
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Old April 27, 2009, 10:33 PM   #19
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Will do. Only problem will be finding power pistol around these parts. Powder is hard to come by.
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