accuracy load .223 for 100-300 yds

sneaky pete · September 17, 2006, 10:19 AM

I shoot in mainly 100 and also some 300 yd matches, using a JP Entrprises Grade II upper with a 1:9 twist bbl. My handloads have been - Win brass, Win S R primers, Hornady 55grV-Max moly flat base bullets, and 26.0gr IMR4895 powder(I'v still got 8lbs left). The load cronos out at 3150fps with a SD of 15-17fps. Off the bench I'm gettng 3/4>1" groups. Lately I have noticed the primers flatening quite a bit but no primer flow or primer protrusion. I am thinking about decreasing the powder to maybe 24.0 but I'm not sure? Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not too keen on changing powder yet, although I could use the 4895 for my "06 or the 8x57 JS??? THANX for the help, Sneaky

amamnn · September 17, 2006, 01:15 PM

Reading primers can be tricky until and unless you've seen a few that were definitely overpressure victims. A better and earlier sign of overpressure is case head expansion. It's a lot more definite and easy to spot, if a little time consuming. You must be sure to mic the case head just above the extractor groove and measure both before and after you shoot a suspect round.

ARs have a tendency to produce scary but false indications like slightly flattened primers and some very slight embossing of the case by the bolt face. You do know that the V-max is not a match bullet?

Scorch · September 17, 2006, 01:30 PM

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Several things could cause flattened primers. You could be resizing too far and moving the shoulder back.

Do not decrease the powder to 24 gr. That is below the minimum recommended by all the manuals I have looked at. If needed, change powder. 4895 is not listed as an accuracy load in my books. I use IMR3031 for accuracy, or WW760 for ease of loading.

If you want to reduce pressure, check to see how close you are to the lands. If too close, try seating a bit deeper.

Buckythebrewer · September 17, 2006, 05:16 PM

Using H4895 I have found good accuracy(always under M.O.A.) out to 625yrds and one hole groups @ 100yrds at 23.8 gr of powder with 77gr SMK in Lc brass..My softer winchester primers do o.k. with that much powder and seated .005 off the lands.I have found H4895 not to fussy with powder charges between 22.5gr and up to 23.8(23.8 being the best I think so far)using 77gr SMK.I would back off just a hair and see what happens.Maybe the IMR won't like it as much,,if not try out h4895 instead(If it will work good for 55 fmj's ,I can't remember).Another great powder for 55fmj(at least in my experience) is 2015br.It burns clean and was very accurate for lighter/shorter bullets when I used it..I am a huge fan of medium and small extruded powders because they meter very well in my cheap Lee perfect powder measure

.Imr3031(Large extruded) sucks in MY Lee powder measure so I don't use it much but it does shoot accurate..

The other thing is get a rcbs comparitor mic ($30 dollars I think)and use it to adjust your dies to bump the shoulder just enough to function safe and reliable in your ar15.It is well worth it and might help your problem and at the very least will make you sure your sizing your brass properly.good luck

castnblast · September 18, 2006, 05:52 PM

1+ on the primers. I think you'll get tighter groups w/ Sierra Match Kings or Game kings. The Boat Tail will help you down range /w better retained velocity as well. I'm getting some really impressive results out of my 22-250 w/ these bullets. They really are really economical too. The bullet drop is far less than what I expected at the 300+ range. I'd concentrate on the brass, and less on the primer. Take a hack saw and cut a case in two and see what kind of wear you are getting. I'm shooting a max load (my rifle didn't like the lower powder charges) and have not noticed anything out of the norm. Do you always use the same brand of primers? some are softer than others. I use CCI, (for no particular reason) but have not had issues w/ flattened primers off my load. 36.5gr. IMR 4064 w/ a Sierra 55 gr. game king spitzer boat tail. It's hot, but works for me. 5/8" group at 100" and still around 1 MOA @ 200.

bkysr · September 19, 2006, 08:47 AM

What would be the loading for 223 using ww760 powder. What size bullet would you use and what charge?
Thanks,
RAKyser

MrGee · September 19, 2006, 06:27 PM

on the question... your loading sounds very consistent, could some of your setting gone a little off .. sizing the, bullet seat, case triming.. do you clean the flash hole from inside the case ? maybe your crimp is a little tighter an or do your cases may need a trim, they may have grown just enough for a slightly tighter crimp, also target shooters hate to clean there barrels, since your using moly coated it mite be time .. just a few thoughts from your give info .. i wouldn't change your formular at least not yet .. Rich G,...

sneaky pete · September 20, 2006, 10:34 AM

First, Thanx to all for your input, After readiing all the posts I also called Sierra bullet techs and talked to Dan Brown. Somethings that came up that came up was the fact that I bought the powder in 1 lb cans and there is a possibility that powder from different lots could have up to 10% variation with preasure/velocity(could and up to are key here), as for boat-tail bullets, because most of my informal matces are shot at 100yds(NO long distance ranges in south Florida) BTs don't travel far enough to be an advantage. He also suggested a change in powder, possibly VihtaVouri N133 or Hogdon H335 and buy in 8lb containers. Another topic, aftr shooting a match I swab the bore with Kroil and then reapply a light coat of Moly bore paste, then befor shooting I run a dry patch thru so I doubt there is a barrel problem. Seating is done with a Fosters micro seating die to max magazine length and checked with a Stony Point comparator, no crimp die. BUT! I think that I'll drop to 25.5gr and watch for preasure signs until i use up the 4895 and then I'll go with the Viht N133 and develop new load data.

MrGee · September 20, 2006, 11:12 AM

i had assumed your shooting an Semi [upper mentioned] is why i mentioned crimp, interesting on the 10% variation in powder lots .. you said ya had 8lbs left - figured it was 1 big can! i was looking at Lymans 48th last nite they have Bookmark an Varget listed as an accurate powder charge for 52-55grn'ers. shooting both 700p an a AR-sp1 1in7 an still looking for that perfect load, a friend of mine back in Ct. shoots 2-an 600 yrds w/a 700.223, an has been using Varget an just tried H4895 which has produced for him .555 at 200yrds ... well good luck with new from Sierra, they know there stuff those boys do .. i'd would be interested in the results as i'm still trying loads for the 700p Rich G,....

amamnn · September 20, 2006, 07:01 PM

I think Bucky might be referring to the RCBS precison mic kit? Very useful, but not to be confused with a bullet compatator, another useful tool. A comparator, when used in conjunction with a MePlat trimmer can help fix vertical stringing expreienced mostly at 300+ yards or in lower velocity loadings. Sinclair makes the best comparator and MePlat trimmer INHO.
I once read that the powder manufaturers' association came up with an allowed tolerance of 16% for lot to lot density. This means that it is possible for one can of powder to be 16% light and your next can to be 16% heavy, (32%!!!!!) which is why there are safety margins in reloading manuals. This is why serious shooters always measure density of new cans and once settled upon a powder, buy in large quantity. Same goes for brass and bullets.
People who cater to match shooters take some care to ensure lot to lot density, but no system is perfect. a lot of match shooters use Vihtuvuori powder for this reason among others.
Depending upon climate and use, i sounds like your cleaning routine could be much better, especially if you are using moly paste. If the barrel is not squeaky clean, moly can form corrosive compounds which you make even more potent by applying another layer of moly on top of it. Many shooters have learned this the hard way, some of them I know personally. One swab with Koil and a dry patch is not going to get the barrel clean. Moly will help prevent lead powder and copper fouling, but it has to be cleaned better than that if you're shooting more than 20 or 30 rounds. OK I just saw S.FLA.--a lot like here--clean better--you'll thank me.

Buckythebrewer · September 20, 2006, 07:15 PM

Ya ,I should have been more clear.I should have said shoulder comparator mic.

sneaky pete · September 24, 2006, 01:20 PM

Had an Any/Any match yeserday 60 rounds @ 100yds using 6 MR-31C targets. Shot 600/47X w/2 targets 100/10x. 10 shot group size <3/4 ", and no noticable primer flatening, however the cases were the 5th reload so I trashed then and will use new brass and drop the load t 25.5 gr IMR4895 until it's all gone. MOLY, there's a lot of contradictory opinions about it. I've been using it in my HI-RPM car engines since the 60's with no adverse effects and in my rifles sonce the late 70's. I do know that MoS2 molecularly bonds to steel very easily. After shooting and light cleaning with either Kroil or a Moly cleaner I apply a coating of moly paste to the bore and let it set until befor the next shooting session then run a dry patch or two down the bore. Only shooting moly bullets really leaves the bore nice. I also have an origional /as issued gevar m-41/B Swedish sniper rifle (6.5x55) that I use the moly tretment as above and shoot moly bullets to save the bore.

September 17, 2006, 10:19 AM	#1
sneaky pete Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510	accuracy load .223 for 100-300 yds I shoot in mainly 100 and also some 300 yd matches, using a JP Entrprises Grade II upper with a 1:9 twist bbl. My handloads have been - Win brass, Win S R primers, Hornady 55grV-Max moly flat base bullets, and 26.0gr IMR4895 powder(I'v still got 8lbs left). The load cronos out at 3150fps with a SD of 15-17fps. Off the bench I'm gettng 3/4>1" groups. Lately I have noticed the primers flatening quite a bit but no primer flow or primer protrusion. I am thinking about decreasing the powder to maybe 24.0 but I'm not sure? Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not too keen on changing powder yet, although I could use the 4895 for my "06 or the 8x57 JS??? THANX for the help, Sneaky

September 17, 2006, 01:15 PM	#2
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Reading primers can be tricky until and unless you've seen a few that were definitely overpressure victims. A better and earlier sign of overpressure is case head expansion. It's a lot more definite and easy to spot, if a little time consuming. You must be sure to mic the case head just above the extractor groove and measure both before and after you shoot a suspect round. ARs have a tendency to produce scary but false indications like slightly flattened primers and some very slight embossing of the case by the bolt face. You do know that the V-max is not a match bullet? __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

September 17, 2006, 01:30 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I wouldn't worry about it too much. Several things could cause flattened primers. You could be resizing too far and moving the shoulder back. Do not decrease the powder to 24 gr. That is below the minimum recommended by all the manuals I have looked at. If needed, change powder. 4895 is not listed as an accuracy load in my books. I use IMR3031 for accuracy, or WW760 for ease of loading. If you want to reduce pressure, check to see how close you are to the lands. If too close, try seating a bit deeper. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

September 17, 2006, 05:16 PM	#4
Buckythebrewer Junior member Join Date: April 15, 2006 Location: Jefferson, ME Posts: 700	Using H4895 I have found good accuracy(always under M.O.A.) out to 625yrds and one hole groups @ 100yrds at 23.8 gr of powder with 77gr SMK in Lc brass..My softer winchester primers do o.k. with that much powder and seated .005 off the lands.I have found H4895 not to fussy with powder charges between 22.5gr and up to 23.8(23.8 being the best I think so far)using 77gr SMK.I would back off just a hair and see what happens.Maybe the IMR won't like it as much,,if not try out h4895 instead(If it will work good for 55 fmj's ,I can't remember).Another great powder for 55fmj(at least in my experience) is 2015br.It burns clean and was very accurate for lighter/shorter bullets when I used it..I am a huge fan of medium and small extruded powders because they meter very well in my cheap Lee perfect powder measure.Imr3031(Large extruded) sucks in MY Lee powder measure so I don't use it much but it does shoot accurate.. The other thing is get a rcbs comparitor mic ($30 dollars I think)and use it to adjust your dies to bump the shoulder just enough to function safe and reliable in your ar15.It is well worth it and might help your problem and at the very least will make you sure your sizing your brass properly.good luck

September 18, 2006, 05:52 PM	#5
castnblast Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 1,148	1+ on the primers. I think you'll get tighter groups w/ Sierra Match Kings or Game kings. The Boat Tail will help you down range /w better retained velocity as well. I'm getting some really impressive results out of my 22-250 w/ these bullets. They really are really economical too. The bullet drop is far less than what I expected at the 300+ range. I'd concentrate on the brass, and less on the primer. Take a hack saw and cut a case in two and see what kind of wear you are getting. I'm shooting a max load (my rifle didn't like the lower powder charges) and have not noticed anything out of the norm. Do you always use the same brand of primers? some are softer than others. I use CCI, (for no particular reason) but have not had issues w/ flattened primers off my load. 36.5gr. IMR 4064 w/ a Sierra 55 gr. game king spitzer boat tail. It's hot, but works for me. 5/8" group at 100" and still around 1 MOA @ 200. __________________ VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter

September 19, 2006, 08:47 AM	#6
bkysr Junior Member Join Date: September 17, 2006 Posts: 2	ww760 What would be the loading for 223 using ww760 powder. What size bullet would you use and what charge? Thanks, RAKyser

September 19, 2006, 06:27 PM	#7
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	on the question... your loading sounds very consistent, could some of your setting gone a little off .. sizing the, bullet seat, case triming.. do you clean the flash hole from inside the case ? maybe your crimp is a little tighter an or do your cases may need a trim, they may have grown just enough for a slightly tighter crimp, also target shooters hate to clean there barrels, since your using moly coated it mite be time .. just a few thoughts from your give info .. i wouldn't change your formular at least not yet .. Rich G,...

September 20, 2006, 10:34 AM	#8
sneaky pete Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510	Analization of all new information First, Thanx to all for your input, After readiing all the posts I also called Sierra bullet techs and talked to Dan Brown. Somethings that came up that came up was the fact that I bought the powder in 1 lb cans and there is a possibility that powder from different lots could have up to 10% variation with preasure/velocity(could and up to are key here), as for boat-tail bullets, because most of my informal matces are shot at 100yds(NO long distance ranges in south Florida) BTs don't travel far enough to be an advantage. He also suggested a change in powder, possibly VihtaVouri N133 or Hogdon H335 and buy in 8lb containers. Another topic, aftr shooting a match I swab the bore with Kroil and then reapply a light coat of Moly bore paste, then befor shooting I run a dry patch thru so I doubt there is a barrel problem. Seating is done with a Fosters micro seating die to max magazine length and checked with a Stony Point comparator, no crimp die. BUT! I think that I'll drop to 25.5gr and watch for preasure signs until i use up the 4895 and then I'll go with the Viht N133 and develop new load data.

September 20, 2006, 11:12 AM	#9
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	sneaky i had assumed your shooting an Semi [upper mentioned] is why i mentioned crimp, interesting on the 10% variation in powder lots .. you said ya had 8lbs left - figured it was 1 big can! i was looking at Lymans 48th last nite they have Bookmark an Varget listed as an accurate powder charge for 52-55grn'ers. shooting both 700p an a AR-sp1 1in7 an still looking for that perfect load, a friend of mine back in Ct. shoots 2-an 600 yrds w/a 700.223, an has been using Varget an just tried H4895 which has produced for him .555 at 200yrds ... well good luck with new from Sierra, they know there stuff those boys do .. i'd would be interested in the results as i'm still trying loads for the 700p Rich G,....

September 20, 2006, 07:01 PM	#10
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	I think Bucky might be referring to the RCBS precison mic kit? Very useful, but not to be confused with a bullet compatator, another useful tool. A comparator, when used in conjunction with a MePlat trimmer can help fix vertical stringing expreienced mostly at 300+ yards or in lower velocity loadings. Sinclair makes the best comparator and MePlat trimmer INHO. I once read that the powder manufaturers' association came up with an allowed tolerance of 16% for lot to lot density. This means that it is possible for one can of powder to be 16% light and your next can to be 16% heavy, (32%!!!!!) which is why there are safety margins in reloading manuals. This is why serious shooters always measure density of new cans and once settled upon a powder, buy in large quantity. Same goes for brass and bullets. People who cater to match shooters take some care to ensure lot to lot density, but no system is perfect. a lot of match shooters use Vihtuvuori powder for this reason among others. Depending upon climate and use, i sounds like your cleaning routine could be much better, especially if you are using moly paste. If the barrel is not squeaky clean, moly can form corrosive compounds which you make even more potent by applying another layer of moly on top of it. Many shooters have learned this the hard way, some of them I know personally. One swab with Koil and a dry patch is not going to get the barrel clean. Moly will help prevent lead powder and copper fouling, but it has to be cleaned better than that if you're shooting more than 20 or 30 rounds. OK I just saw S.FLA.--a lot like here--clean better--you'll thank me. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

September 20, 2006, 07:15 PM	#11
Buckythebrewer Junior member Join Date: April 15, 2006 Location: Jefferson, ME Posts: 700	Ya ,I should have been more clear.I should have said shoulder comparator mic.

September 24, 2006, 01:20 PM	#12
sneaky pete Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510	I Must be doing something rite Had an Any/Any match yeserday 60 rounds @ 100yds using 6 MR-31C targets. Shot 600/47X w/2 targets 100/10x. 10 shot group size <3/4 ", and no noticable primer flatening, however the cases were the 5th reload so I trashed then and will use new brass and drop the load t 25.5 gr IMR4895 until it's all gone. MOLY, there's a lot of contradictory opinions about it. I've been using it in my HI-RPM car engines since the 60's with no adverse effects and in my rifles sonce the late 70's. I do know that MoS2 molecularly bonds to steel very easily. After shooting and light cleaning with either Kroil or a Moly cleaner I apply a coating of moly paste to the bore and let it set until befor the next shooting session then run a dry patch or two down the bore. Only shooting moly bullets really leaves the bore nice. I also have an origional /as issued gevar m-41/B Swedish sniper rifle (6.5x55) that I use the moly tretment as above and shoot moly bullets to save the bore.