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May 18, 2013, 01:51 AM | #26 |
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Unlike Benghazi these are real scandals. They should be investigated to the fullest.
But don't get your hopes up about this leading to the fall of the government. The basis of the procurement of phone records is a claim by the government that, failing getting a subpoena through regular channel, a warrant can be issued on the signature of the AG. That line of reasoning is the same used by the Bush administration for by passing the FISA Court and other governmental over reaches. The Bush administration wasn't held to account for its action and in some cases it was upheld by the courts. Using the IRS for political purposes happened under Nixon, Reagan, and the second Bush. Afaik there weren't any political or legal consequences. At any rate I would like to see a special prosecutor appointed for each case. In both cases I'd like to see that a prosecutor would have a wider mandate than the specific case. They should investigate all cases of government bypassing the courts and all instances of using the IRS as a political tool. Powerful institutions will continue to abuse their powers as long as no one goes to jail. Last edited by Buzzcook; May 18, 2013 at 12:35 PM. |
May 18, 2013, 07:11 AM | #27 | ||
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http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/03/ma...ted=all&src=pm The question is to what degree? This is the first time a such widespread pattern of abuse has been noted. ETA- Interesting update. Apparently the AG's argument that lives were at risk on the AP phone records is being shown to be without much merit: Quote:
Both these statements can not be true.
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May 18, 2013, 01:37 PM | #28 | |||
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Yes previous administrations have abused their power. To quote Bob Barr, If you give government power it will use it. Quote:
That is why I'm not too sanguine about the current scandal leading to a big pay off for the administration's opponents. Quote:
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May 18, 2013, 04:07 PM | #29 | |
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May 18, 2013, 05:19 PM | #30 | |
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Buzzcook
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Unfortunately, most of the talking heads seem to have begun treating this less as a real-live issue with a smoking gun and more as a Republican versus Democrat "gotcha" scandal. It's an understandable rut. How often have we seen parties fabricate "really important issues" from non-issues? After decades of this, people tend to lose perspective.
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May 18, 2013, 06:17 PM | #31 |
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A story from CBS today suggests that the real scandal may be not so much a partisan one, but rather the fact that the IRS has targeted small, local groups instead of going after the major, "deep-pockets" organizations that have sprung up as 501(c)(4)s since the Citizens' United decision on both sides of the political divide, and which are dedicated to political spending rather than social welfare, which is supposed to be their primary purpose.
A Senate investigative panel led by Democrat Carl Levin of Michigan and Republican John McCain of Arizona has been reviewing the use of social welfare groups for political causes for the past year and now is examining the agency's handling of the tax-exempt reviews.It was clear from the get-go that this kind of abuse and corruption would follow from the Citizens' United decision. If the current IRS scandal brings this to light, some good may come of it.
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May 18, 2013, 09:41 PM | #32 | |
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May 19, 2013, 10:43 AM | #33 |
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According to an article in today's New York Times, the scandal over the IRS' handling of tax-exemption applications is likely to boil down to simple bureaucratic incompetence and overwork:
Overseen by a revolving cast of midlevel managers, stalled by miscommunication with I.R.S. lawyers and executives in Washington and confused about the rules they were enforcing, the Cincinnati specialists flagged virtually every application with Tea Party in its name. But their review went beyond conservative groups: more than 400 organizations came under scrutiny, including at least two dozen liberal-leaning ones and some that were seemingly apolitical.It's also telling that critics of the administration have switched their emphasis from the actual behavior of the IRS to the administration's handling of the scandal, and even that is becoming an uphill struggle: Republican leaders have acknowledged that they have no evidence that President Obama ordered the IRS to target conservative groups. From this article from NBC news: Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell said the IRS controversy amounted to evidence of a "culture of intimidation" by the administration. But he and Rep. Dave Camp, R-Mich., admitted they lacked evidence that the targeting of conservatives was ordered by the White House.It's unfortunate that the critics' focus is on making political hay from this, rather than on the legitimate questions raised by the behavior of the IRS in this instance:
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; May 20, 2013 at 10:39 AM. Reason: missing link... |
May 20, 2013, 08:29 AM | #34 |
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Color Me Shocked
Joe Scarborough and Piers Morgan seem to have had their unshakable faith in the government ability to honestly regulate firearms shaken. They seem to have seen the light on potential for abuse of power.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journal...ists-not-crazy These videos are worth a gander.
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May 20, 2013, 10:58 AM | #35 |
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Will Morning Joe recant on his statement that he doesn't see why we should have ARs, etc. as he doesn't need a clip with 30 cop killer bullets to take his six year old hunting?
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May 20, 2013, 02:47 PM | #36 | |
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There's some interesting observations from the National Journal about the current Scandalgate(s). The National Journal is evidently pro-administration most of the time:
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So, even if successful at spinning these scandals as bureaucratic blunders, they nevertheless weaken the administration because they foster less trust from the masses. The article suggests several ways for the administration to "restore the public trust," including the appointment of a special prosecutor to look into the IRS probe. |
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May 20, 2013, 02:57 PM | #37 | |
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I know of the monster Fast and Furious thread but thought a quick mention here was relevant --
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The IG is referring the matter to the Office of Professional Responsibility to determine if Burke violated the Rules of Professional Conduct in the states in which he is licensed. Given everything else going on with the administration right now, this probably won't get much play. Yet, Burke's actions seem consistent with the method of the administration to intimidate opponents. information leakers, and whistle blowers. |
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May 20, 2013, 03:30 PM | #38 |
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DOJ Inspector General's Report on smears
Surprise, surprise...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...-whistleblower ... so Dennis Burke actively tried to smear John Dodson, and the director for public affairs worked with Media Matters to smear whistleblowers, Congress, and any investigating journalists. Bet this won't even make page 32 in the NYT and similar... Let your fence sitting acquaintnces know about this report; heck, tell the antis, too. |
May 20, 2013, 04:51 PM | #39 |
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Yup. And if you think that happened without the express approval of one Eric Holder, esq., you'd be quite mistaken.
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May 21, 2013, 01:32 PM | #40 |
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Should add that the AP scandal is a 4th amendment question more than 1st.
With the war on drugs and now the terrorism excuse the 4th is almost moribund. |
May 22, 2013, 08:27 AM | #41 | |
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The head of the department where the IRS actions took place has plead the fifth in a letter and is not expected to testify. Should get interesting....
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May 22, 2013, 02:20 PM | #42 |
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And, it seems the program manager for the Tax Exempt Division, Cindy Thomas, had previously sent pending applications to ProPublica media - which is a felony.
http://www.fox19.com/story/22380127/...in-irs-scandal Thomas would apparently be a direct subordinate of Lerner... |
May 22, 2013, 02:24 PM | #43 | |
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May 23, 2013, 01:12 PM | #44 | |
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That statement may have been her undoing. Maybe one of the many TFL lawyers can answer that?
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May 23, 2013, 01:19 PM | #45 |
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At the local, rather than federal, level it seems that some camera-shy police departments are trying out a new method to suppress 1A rights:
[URL="http://www.infowars.com/cops-being-trained-that-cell-phones-could-be-guns/"]http://www.infowars.com/cops-being-trained-that-cell-phones-could-be-guns/[/URL Once again, I take Alex Jones with a grain of salt, but given previous harassment of people who have recorded LE interactions I have little trouble finding this at least somewhat credible. |
May 23, 2013, 07:40 PM | #46 |
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http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news...cial-says?lite
I think we may be getting some due payback for F&F now that the lid has been blown on Holder's personal responsibility in this. He went after all of James Rosen's personal information, a Fox News reporter.
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May 23, 2013, 08:58 PM | #47 |
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Regarding Lerner's appearance, I cannot say if she has waived her Fifth Amendment right or not. I know that in civil cases and in front of a grand jury, a witness is not normally allowed not to testify at all. They must invoke their Fifth Amendment right to individual questions. In civil cases, the fact finder can draw adverse inferences on the witness's refusal to answer questions.
At criminal trials, they are not usually allowed to testify at all if they are going to invoke their Fifth Amendment right to some of the questions because it is simply unfair to both parties to get only part of the story. At least I think that is the rationale as I have never seen a witness take the stand knowing he or she is going to take the Fifth. If I'm not mistaken, one doesn't have to be under oath to be guilty of misleading or obstructing Congress. I believe that Lt.Col. Oliver North had made unsworn statements to members outside of committee meetings which misled them in their duties. He was convicted of obstruction of Congress but that conviction was vacated because of an unrelated foul up. |
June 12, 2013, 03:53 PM | #48 | |
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Apparently the suppression of Political groups was going on for longer than suspected as early as 2010:
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June 12, 2013, 04:51 PM | #49 |
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Just for the record, the IRS has been used to target political opponents (and dissenters in general) by every administration since at least that of President Eisenhower. The IRS was one of the main tools of the illegal COINTEL program, begun by J. Edgar Hoover in 1956. Under that program, the FBI used information provided by the IRS to target a wide range of "subversive" individuals and groups under both Republican and Democratic administrations.
During the Nixon administration, the IRS was given lists of (left-wing) activists by the Dept. of Justice, and instructed to audit and harass them. Around 3,000 groups and 8,000 individuals were so targeted, solely on the basis of their political speech. The Kennedy, Clinton, and both Bush administrations all used the IRS in similar ways. There's nothing new about any of this. What's actually different about the current "scandal" is that the Ohio IRS office was conducting routine investigations of whether 501(4)(c) organizations were eligible for tax-exempt status. They seem to have been more zealous in investigating groups with "Tea party" or "Patriot" in their names, but it was their legitimate job to investigate applications by all such groups. _____ http://swampland.time.com/2013/05/14...tory-of-abuse/ http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...strations.html http://www.salon.com/2013/05/14/when...eted_liberals/
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; June 12, 2013 at 09:28 PM. |
June 12, 2013, 08:54 PM | #50 | |
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What is also different is that some of those organization were trying to over throw the government through illegal means, some had backings of foreign powers unfriendly to the US (USSR, Cuba etc) or out right enemies (Vietnam, North Korea). There were a lot of other differences too such as Hoover essentially considering himself to be the embodiment of the law himself. Oh, wait, maybe there is not that much difference after all. It just moved up the chain a bit.
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