progresive press

[Pchris]

I am contemplating buying a progressive press, i have been hand loading now for about a year and i would like to increase my ability to load more rounds. i have been using an old RCBS rock crusher. the press works great but i am loading a lot of .223, my grandson graduated to an AR recently so i need to up my ability to reload more rounds.
i have the option to buy an RCBS 5 station press brand new at a reasonable price. The Hornaday press interests me since it has the lock and load feature. Im sure Lee and Lyman make nice presses as well but i haven't done much research on them.I have a lower price point in mind so i can justify spending 750.00 to 1000.00 to get set up. This is why the RCBS is a good fit for me price wise,like i said i can get into it very inexpensively.
With that many operations going on at every pull of the handle im sure there is more chances for rounds to be not done properly. This is a concern. i have read that they have had a lot of problems with the primer feed for the last couple of years. any input on this model would be helpful from folks with much more experience than I.
general pros and cons would be appreciated since i have never tried any progressive press before.

thank you

[condor bravo]

You seem to have overlooked the Dillon 550 or 650 and they should be included in the mix. A lot less than up to $1000 to get started. The main differences between the two is that the 650 has automatic advance from station to station and five stations, while the 550 has manual advance and only four stations. Manual advance with the 550 should not be considered a negative factor.

[helocat]

Pchris - I am with Condor on this, consider Dillon in the mix. I myself used to do all my reloading on a RCBS Rock Chucker II, back in the 90's. I moved to a Dillon 550B (now its a 550C) in the late 90's and its been a great tool.

As to test for Dillon as a brand, I recently set it back up after 15yrs hiatus of reloading. Needed few parts that were damaged or lost in the last few moves. Call to Dillon had all the parts at my door that same week. Great service.

[Machineguntony]

For reloading on an AR, the Dillon 650 is the way to go.

The automatic advance is worth the extra few hundred dollars. You might think an auto advance isn’t a big deal, especially since you’re moving from a single stage, but eventually, you will want the ease that comes with an auto advance.

The only downside of the 650 is the powder jump issue with small cases, like 9mm or even 40S&W. YouTube this issue. There is really no perfect fix for this problem. But if you’re loading 223, then the 650 is perfect.

It’s very satisfying to go from not having any ammo for the range, to then having 1000 rounds in a couple of hours. And thats loading at a leisurely pace, too.

Whatever press you decide to get, even if it’s not a Dillon, just make sure it has auto indexing.

[condor bravo]

Pchris:
The Dillon 550C is priced at $480 and the 650 at $590. You might be interested in calling Dillon at 800-223-4570 and have them send you their ordering catalog called the Blue Press.

[Hanshi]

I've owned a Dillon 550B for over 20 years and have loaded thousands of .45acp and .38spl. No complaints whatsoever.

[Real Gun]

I recall that when I did my first 223 on my Hornady LnL AP last winter, none since, the cases were sized, using the case feeder, and that was it. The cases came back trimmed and ready to load, so the sizer was removed. In other words, I could have as well been using a 4 station press. A Dillon 550 would probably be what you would want, if rifle was all you were loading.

[Northof50]

Pchris - I load with RCBS and have done so for 30 years. I have nothing bad to say about Dillon, as I own some of their ancillary equipment and it is wonderful. I, like you, started with the RockChucker. What I liked about RCBS was that it was expandable. They offered a PiggyBack system which bolted to the top of the RockChucker. It was a 5 station press for pistol and 223. So, I got into progressives very inexpensively. I used the system for many years. 5 years ago, purchased a Pro2000; a full sized RCBS progressive press. Again, expandability was nice, as all my shell plates and dies fit.

I looked at the Dillon, but for me, the RCBS was a better fit [primarily due to the shell plates, powder measures, dies all being direct fits. But, in my opinion, there were several things that made the RCBS superior -
1- the micrometer powder dispenser is light years ahead, as you can easily index the loads, making repeat setting easy.
2- changing calibers was much easier
3- changing from large to small primers was much easier

But, one of the biggest was the primer delivery system. I had used the "drop tube" for 25 years and was ready for a change. Mass is your friend in reloading. A primer only weighs about 3 grains. If you are going to have issue with your reloading machine, chances are it originates in the primer delivery, removal or seating. 99% of all other issues are user instigated. Many didn't like the primer strips and RCBS didn't help matters as their directions do not provide the best way to use them. I love the system and would never go back.

Yes. There are a lot of things that happen simultaneously. I laugh at those that state, "I've never had a problem..." If that's true, they simply haven't loaded long enough. As written, 99% of the issues are user generated. Generally, the user has not properly set each step with enough precision. But, that's no reason not to get into it. I fully believe, years spent with a single stage only prepare you more.

One other thing, I've noticed that many Dillon users have multiple machines. Not certain why this is, as I couldn't imagine needing multiple machines for recreational shooting. But, again, when I looked into them, changing from 1 caliber to another looked like a PIA. Could be why they own more than one??

Best of luck.

- side note: after 30 years, I just found out the stop on the primer seat was not set properly. Stuff happens to everyone.

[BBarn]

If you want to use a powder check die, you'll probably want at least 5 stations if loading for pistol also. If you plan to use a case feeder, the Dillon 650 is a great choice. The 650 is somewhat awkward if feeding cases manually. The Hornady LNL AP is fairly versatile, but tends to be more finicky than Dillon's presses. The four station Dillon 550 is fine if you don't mind manually rotating the shellplate (not a big deal), especially if loading only for two die rifle rounds. I don't know enough about the RCBS progressives to comment on them.

[BigJimP]

The 650 ...is my choice as well.

5 stations allow for use of the "powder check die" ....auto indexing removes a chance of human error ( and on repetive actions, its easier than you think to forget to index the press, like the 550. The 650 is also available with a case feeder that you can add later of course.

I think the primer handling system on the 650 is superior to the LNL.

[Pchris]

Lots of good info.. thank you! Learn something new everyday

[flyguy958]

I got the RCBS after some research. I've used it for about 3 years and enjoy loading with it. The powder delivery system is great. The primer delivery system takes some getting use to. Getting a loaded round every time you pull the handle is nice! Overall I would buy it again.

[condor bravo]

Rebuttal to BigJimP's statement forgetting to manually index the Dillon 550. If you do have a brief memory lapse and forget to index, your next step would usually be to grab another empty case for inserting into station one, but then you see there is already a case there (sized and primed) so then you index. Same thing if you try to seat a bullet only to notice a bullet has been seated so you then index.

But of course it could be a different situation if you actuate the operating handle twice without indexing which could result in a double powder charge and maybe that is what Big Jim had in mind. The double charge would likely be noticed at the bullet seating station.

One argument in favor of manual indexing is that problems can be easier cleared or prevented by not indexing or backing up a station.

[jmorris]

1- the micrometer powder dispenser is light years ahead, as you can easily index the loads, making repeat setting easy.
2- changing calibers was much easier
3- changing from large to small primers was much easier

I keep the powder bars preset for the different loads and swap them out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdNZkkTFQEM

Depends on the rounds of course but I can go from 7-08 to 458 socom in less than 30 seconds with two “complete” tool heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689Wzn4qY3w

I don’t know of any progressive that is as fast and easy to convert primer sizes as the 550 is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCGV-JPYaE

[Pchris]

auto indexing is the one of the main reasons i want a progressive press,I.E. speed. My concern is making a mistake, i have good control now since i perform 1 operation at a time. I would assume that with practice and experience i would become comfortable with the quality and safety of my rounds in a auto indexing press.
my other fact to consider is my Grandson, i want him to learn and become capable of using a progressive press as well. i am very comfortable with him loading rounds with me now since I have good control of the process. Im sure that with supervision i would become comfortable with him using a progressive press.
I will check out the Dillon 650, i have friends that use Dillon and they are very happy with them.
thanks Gentlemen

[Waldog]

I haven’t loaded on the RCBS Progressive. I am a die hard LNL user and I would never consider changing. I also have a Dillion Square Deal press that is rarely used. I have to agree with the other posters, you should at least consider the Dillon presses in your search. Find what suits your needs. They only press I wouldn’t consider is a LEE Progressive press. Good luck in your search!

[BigJimP]

Yes, I was talking about guys that ...make a mistake...and just keep pulling handle ..and screw up resulting in either a double charge...or a no charge..( but that can happen on any press - "Stupid" is out there....looking for a place to land.../ ... but the 550 can be used safely if you have good procedures.

You can screw up on a 650 as well.../ alarm says you have a drop out of spec, you remove case in station 4, weigh powder, forget to put powder back into the case ...and put in back in rotation. Reloading is not a speed drill...you have to pay attention to what you're doing.
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Removing cases from the 650 ..is no big deal.../ instead of backing them up, if you have a problem seating a primer or something...I just pull the case out of the rotation ( out of shell holder) ...check all 5 stations ( go over everything in my mind)..making sure the handle was cycled...etc...../ and continue. But yes, the 550 will allow you to back up the shell holder easier than it is on the 650.

Couple of things...
a. On any press, you can get a flexible shaft mirror - auto parts stores, etc...and rig it on press...so you can see into a case as it comes out of powder drop - before you set bullet...to make sure there is powder in case. This will prevent a squib round. To use a mirror to prevent an overcharge...you need to use a powder that will give you a significant variance in the volume of powder in case...so you can see the distinct difference. But your eyes will play tricks on you ...regardless of what some folks think, with most powders your eyes will not pick up a 0.2 - 0.4 grain difference in a drop .../ and that will often put you out of spec. But a mirror is helpful.

b. Get a good Halogen or LED adjustable head bench top ight for your work bench ( like the old engineering table lights - that adjusted 3 or 4 different directions). Make sure you get really good bright light on your shell plate...so you can see into cases as they come out of powder drop...( and every case on the plate ). Its a big help. Even though I have good LED lights in the ceiling of my shop...I really need the extra light at my press.

c. Powder check die...will alert you to as little as 0.1...and definitely 0.2 gr difference in your drop. Properly used and adjusted...its a comforting thing to know you ammo is in spec.

Note: ... I was teaching a buddy to load on my 650 --- before he bought his own press ( he was waffling between 550 and a 650 at the time). He was loading his own ammo...and press started to alert powder drop was not right. We couldn't see the difference ( .45 acp ) ...in drops but when we weighed each one...it was varying .02 - 0.5 gr both low and high.../ so we shut it all down...-- ended up finding a nut that had worked loose on powder measure.

Point is... he had loaded a few hundred rounds by then...and because we were using the Powder Check die...we knew 100% of the ammo we loaded up to that point was good ...we had no reason to doubt, think about pulling bullets to check or anything.... / if we had been using a 550, with no powder check die ...we could not have been certain whether all that ammo was good or bad...and we would have had to pull bullets.
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You see comments all the time....long after you have forgotten what things cost...if the press meets or exceeds all your expectations, you won't remember what you paid for it ...or the relatively small difference in cost between the 550 and 650 ( and that includes the cost of conversion kits, etc ).

A 650, with case feeder and powder check ...has met and exceeded all my needs for the last 15 yrs or so..../ if I wanted a second press, it would be another 650...

[jmorris]

auto indexing is the one of the main reasons i want a progressive press,I.E. speed.

The “speed” comes from doing steps in 4 stations with ne pull of the handle. Thetime taken to index while you are manually setting a bullet onto a case and inserting a fresh face on the 1st station, isn’t that big of a deal.

Add case and bullet feed and it would make up a larger percentage of time and certainly not be desirable.

FWIW I felt the same way. I have owned most of the auto indexing progressives and finally bought a 550 just to have an informed opinion and concluded it’s just not that big of a deal without collated (any feeders without collators is a lnet loss) case and or bullet feeders. What you lose, if anything, you gain back in simplicity.
For .223 the 1050 would be my #1, 650 #2, If I were looking for volume. Also included would be another tool head setup with a Dillon trimmer.

The highest load rates come from not having to touch anything at all while loading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La83ZVKnBzw

[Wag]

I just started using an RCBS Pro 2000. I don't think they make it any more; I bought this on on Craigslist.

My biggest complaint is that primer handling is a pain. I've heard that about other progressives as well.

It's a different world than the single stage. I find that the learning curve is a little high but I've produced quite a few good .223 rounds.

--Wag--

[condor bravo]

I use two 550s, one set up for small primers and the other for large, and also use additional powder measure systems attached to toolheads for most commonly loaded handgun calibers ( five at this time). This of course facilitates changing calibers and powder charges (if needed). If I thought another press was needed, and had room for it, I would get a 650 for a better understanding of it, but certainly not for any increase in loading speed. I continue to think that certain hang-ups or problems are more awkward to clear with the 650.

[drain smith]

Now I do not ever recommend a press for anyone. First I don't know how smart you are and second I do not know your mechanical ability. If you are low on either buy your ammo, if you are high on both any progressive will work.

On your original post, you were asking about RCBS and Hornady. But as you can see the Dillon boys chimed in at 4 to 1. The only time I hear crickets from them is when I want to bet my 100% Hornady up against their 100% Dillon.

Now to lay some facts on you. As of today, Midway has the following prices on Hornady equipment.
Hornady L-N-L AP press. $414.00
Hornady case feeder. $310.00
Hornady 22 cal bullet feeder $324.00
Hornady #16 shell plate. $35.00
Hornady small rifle case feeder plate. $29.00
Hornady powder cop. $30.00
All prices have been rounded to the nearest dollar. The total is $1160.00. If you shop around you might do better. You would have to use your dies and your own coffee cup for your left hand (because you won't need it) But you all so receive 700 free bullets. Even if you pick the 22 cal bullets (they are the cheapest) And they total in $133.00 savings.
This would get you close to your $1,000.00 limit. Let's see if the Dillon boys can do better.

[BigJimP]

Price isn't the only reason to pick a press ....or components for that matter.

I'm not saying the LNL is a bad press, it isn't...but neither is it a better press than a 650...especially in how the 650 handles its primers, durability, Dillon tech support, customer service, etc.

Out of 20 buddies that reload...3 have LNL, 1 the RCBS prog, a couple SDB's , 3 with 550's , one 1050....and the rest are 650's..../...1 of the guys that bought the LNL and 2 that bought the 550's have all said they wished they had bought the 650.... / ...yes the Dillon 650 costs a little more....but every time the LNL mis-feeds a primer ...it'll create a little furr ball in the back of your throat...and that price difference gets thinner and thinner...

I'd take your bet against your LNL ....any day with a 650..on durability, reliability, etc.... no disrespect to the LNL being in 2nd place ...but 2nd is the first loser... / my 650 has been cranking out about 30,000 rds of handgun ammo a year ...for last 15 yrs or so, and its not going anywhere.... ( the only red presses in my shop, are MEC hydraulic 9000 HN presses for shotshells in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410.... )....... sorry, couldn't resist...
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Last time I checked prices on Dillon 650 ...with case feeder, powder check, roller handle, strong mount, 1 set of Dillon dies & conversion kit it was about $ 1,165.... ...not enough difference to even make me consider a LNL....

[drain smith]

BigJimP First off I never said a bad thing about the Dillon press and never will. The problem I have is the rabid fervor the Dillon boys have.
I used to brag that my four Ammo-plants hadn't missed a primer since 23 May 2015 But last month after I swaged 2,000 rounds of .223 I didn't clean the slide and had a failure. But I went over 2 years and 8 months on all four of my Ammo-plants. Now, do you really think the 650s primer system is better? Just go to any forum or YouTube and type in "chain reaction primer tube failure" I know you will see Dillon pop up a lot. But you won't see Hornady pop up at all.

Now, as far as durability and reliability. You do know that Hornady offers the same rebuild that Dillons have don't you? You can find hundreds of examples of Dillon folks say "I sent my press in and it came back like brand new!" But have you ever heard off a Hornady being sent in for a rebuild? I'm sorry that you are the first loser.

Hey, $1,165.00 is a fine price for a 650. But for $5.00 less the Hornady comes with a bullet feeder. How much is that Dillon bullet feeder?...Oh, that's right they rely on another company to complete their press. And I am not sorry I couldn't resist either.

Now, do you want to call a truce or should we keep going?

[1stmar]

A lot of good advice. How many calibers are you looking to load? Changing calibers is more complex and more time consuming with more gadgets (bullet feeder/case feeder). And more costly. If your looking to load a single caliber or you dont change calibers very often the 650 is a great press. Else i would look at the 550. I think it also depends on if you loadkng rifle or pistol and if rifle for accuracy or volume. If rifle for precision, i prefer to wieigh each charge, trim after sizing, clean primer pockets etc. for me, even though i have a 550 and it can do rifle i prefer a single stage for rifle. If you are loading 223 for machine gun, 650 is the way to go imo.

[condor bravo]

"rabid fervor the Dillon boys have"
Sounds like the Dillons and the Honadies, they were reckless reloadin' boys, just don't let it end in shootin'...