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Old May 7, 2018, 09:12 PM   #1
TXAZ
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Linear group: What can tighten this group up?

Here is a 5 shot group at 100 yards w/ a 6 mm Creedmoor from this weekend.
Great rifle from Alamo Precision, just looking for any feedback on what I might be doing to get a ~ 1" line down to a 1/2" group.


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Old May 7, 2018, 09:49 PM   #2
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"Aim small, miss small."


Just kidding. Nice shooting. Can't offer any real advice about your OP; from what I've gleaned from your previous posts, you're a much better shooter than I.
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Old May 7, 2018, 10:30 PM   #3
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Thanks RR99.


It seems like I have the vertical / elevation under control.

So the question is what causes the left to right difference?

While 1" at 100 yards is good, that multiplies out 20-100 times the error at 1000-1800 yards, due to other effects that come in to play at distance.
(We were shooting a mile this weekend, and some moderate wind and was slinging 6.5CM up to 300WM +/- 5 feet.

That's where I want to become proficient. So I'd really like to understand what may be causing the linear error.

ANY feedback would be sincerely appreciated.
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Old May 7, 2018, 11:45 PM   #4
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Could be a few things like trigger pull isn't consistent, could be the front rest, rear rest might be out of alignment. I'm betting more trigger time will help shrink your groups. Here is a good read on group size and long range shooting.
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Old May 8, 2018, 06:37 AM   #5
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W/o more info on the type of rest and whether there was a cross wind, not much to go by.
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Old May 8, 2018, 07:02 AM   #6
TXAZ
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Mobuck, good questions. Atlas bipod and Caldwell bag in the back. Was off a wooden bench which might be a contributor.
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Old May 8, 2018, 08:02 AM   #7
NoSecondBest
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When you get horizontal dispersion, the first thing to consider is WIND. Without a wind flag you have no idea what the wind is doing between you and the target. Even if you can't feel it, it can be a lot more profound somewhere between you and the target. Terrain, ground structures, etc. all have an effect on wind between you and the target. Don't start messing with your gun if it's not the problem.
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Old May 8, 2018, 08:30 AM   #8
davidsog
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Quote:
Here is a 5 shot group at 100 yards w/ a 6 mm Creedmoor from this weekend.
Great rifle from Alamo Precision, just looking for any feedback on what I might be doing to get a ~ 1" line down to a 1/2" group.
Unless it was gusty wind conditions......you can work on your trigger squeeze.

A horizontal group is indicative of poor trigger manipulation skills.

Proper trigger manipulation consist's of pulling the trigger STRAIGHT back. Pretend you are pushing a needle that runs straight down the weapon and thru your shoulder. It does not matter what part of your finger contacts the trigger, the tip, first knuckle or any other part of your finger so long as your manipulate the trigger straight back.

The second part of good trigger manipulation is reset as part of the follow thru. When the weapon has fired, you release pressure on the trigger until you hear a "click". That eliminates the time it takes to eliminate the trigger slack on the next pull and thereby reduces your chances to introduce shooter error.

Try dime washer drills.

1. Unloaded, cleared, and charged weapon

2. From the shooting position have a friend assisting balance a dime on the barrel near the muzzle.

3. Squeeze the trigger.

4. Proper trigger manipulation will allow the hammer to fall and dime will stay balanced on the barrel.

Hope that helps!!
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Old May 8, 2018, 08:49 AM   #9
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My first thought is to make sure the parallax is adjusted out of your scope at your shooting distance. Don't trust the dial readings, move your head up, down, right & left without touching the rifle.

I shoot off an Eagle omni-adjustable benchrest with front & rear bags. When I get horizontal groups like that I make sure my rifle sits perfectly straight to the target & bags. Although the mechanical front rest can be adjusted in all directions, I make sure my alignment is not introducing right or left pressure by the bag. Same is true with the rear bag ears.

Just a thought & I hope this makes sense.

FWIW
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Old May 8, 2018, 08:56 AM   #10
davidsog
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My first thought is to make sure the parallax is adjusted out of your scope at your shooting distance.
I hope he is not even asking this question with optics mounted.

Working on basic shooting skills and optics is a horrible combination.



Use iron sights to reduce shooter error and then move to optics.
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Old May 8, 2018, 09:25 AM   #11
TXAZ
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Good input davidsog, thanks. Parallax had already been checked.
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Old May 8, 2018, 10:24 AM   #12
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You are most welcome, TXAZ!

One of the fun and challenging things about our shooting hobby is it is a lifelong pursuit of unattainable perfection, LOL.

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Old May 8, 2018, 11:10 AM   #13
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Working on basic shooting skills and optics is a horrible combination.
I had to laugh, starts my day out right. What about those of us who can't see iron sights worth a hoot?
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Old May 8, 2018, 11:13 AM   #14
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You don't say what type of ammo?

Reloads?

COAL affects the patterns and its an area to play with if you reload.

Just as well could be small scope screws not all being equally tight or the fit of the gun in the stock.

You clearly will know if wind is an issue on a 100 yard range.
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Old May 8, 2018, 12:02 PM   #15
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What about those of us who can't see iron sights worth a hoot?
What about it? You are handicapped when it comes to shooting and diagnosing shooter induced error.

Having a handicap does not preclude one from shooting, it just means you have a handicap. Awareness of that goes a long way towards mitigating it.

There is a reason why all sniper courses start out on ironsights and shoot ironsights for much of the course because of the fact, ironsights highlight shooter error much better than optics.

I have been a "handicapped" professional shooter for much of my adult life. I happen to be right handed and left eye dominant. I was made aware of it, learned to overcome it, and held to same marksmanship standards as everyone else.
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Old May 8, 2018, 12:02 PM   #16
Art Eatman
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Any possibility that you're maybe canting the rifle, from shot to shot? It doesn't take much to create horizontal dispersion.

So I can avoid that, I use targets with the one-inch grid lines, keeping the cross hairs aligned with the grid.
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Old May 8, 2018, 01:03 PM   #17
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http://www.6mmbr.com/Winddrift.html
It doesn't have to be "gusty". Most shooters don't understand winds effects on a bullet path or realize it doesn't have to be hitting you in the face to effect the bullet. You can have wind between you and the target that you can't feel. That's why the top shooters use wind flags and have learned about it. This small amount of drift shown by the OP can be just wind.....even at a 100 yards without being "gusty".
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Old May 8, 2018, 04:57 PM   #18
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"Working on basic shooting skills and optics is a horrible combination.



Use iron sights to reduce shooter error and then move to optics."

HUH??Iron sights incorporate far more variance than a properly adjusted optic.
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Old May 8, 2018, 06:02 PM   #19
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Yes they do which is why working on shooter error and optics is a bad idea.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...h-iron-sights/

If you want to hone your shooting skills, use iron sights. They will show you any shooter error quite nicely and allow you to correct it. Once you have your marksmanship skills down, then move to optics.
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Old May 8, 2018, 06:37 PM   #20
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What about it? You are handicapped when it comes to shooting and diagnosing shooter induced error.
Well lets see, most snipers have 20/20 vision, are young men etc.

Seeing as how I can shoot 1/4 inch groups with some regularity and easily under 5/8, I don't feel the least bit handi capped.

Now the blown disk in my back has some restrictions.

Me thinks you are making an opinion into a fact.
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Old May 8, 2018, 06:42 PM   #21
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It doesn't have to be "gusty". Most shooters don't understand winds effects on a bullet path or realize it doesn't have to be hitting you in the face to effect the bullet. You can have wind between you and the target that you can't feel. That's why the top shooters use wind flags and have learned about it. This small amount of drift shown by the OP can be just wind.....even at a 100 yards without being "gusty".
I did not say it did. It has to be consistently enough from one direction (or add up to that) , it has to be a left to right at 90 degrees for the charts (or a breakdown of what the drift component is at other angle)

What I am saying is you have to walk you7 target out there and you have a pretty good idea doing so how much wind, what direction, how many yards of it total and if there is a variation.

Ergo, you don't need flags at 100 yards. Most times it zeroes out or is not enough or its not from enough of an angle to matter.

300 yards and more, yes we are talking a nice steady drift fro9m left to right will begin to play in and have an affect. Not 100 let alone someone who has shooting experience as does the OP.
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Old May 8, 2018, 06:47 PM   #22
TXAZ
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If it helps any, wind was near zero on the 100 yard sight-in.
Thanks Taylorforce, good article.
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Old May 9, 2018, 07:46 AM   #23
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Seeing as how I can shoot 1/4 inch groups with some regularity and easily under 5/8, I don't feel the least bit handi capped.
You are in regards to shooting but is ok!!

Like me, you can and apparently have learned to overcome your handicap.

https://buckmasters.com/Magazines/Gu...-Eye-Dominance

http://aliengearholsters.com/blog/cross-eye-dominance/

Quote:
Me thinks you are making an opinion into a fact.
Not sure what you are talking about here but whatever floats your boat.

Is it having bad eyesight is a handicap in regards to shooting or that iron sights require a higher degree of marksmanship skills than optics?

Or that a horizontal string is generally the result of poor trigger skills?

All of those are true. TXAZ situation though requires much more detail than what is given here in the OP posting.

For example, if this is a problem with just this rifle and he does not exhibit horizontal stringing with other similar rifles then I would look to the bedding of this specific rifle.

But it is a fact, the most common cause of constant horizontal stringing is marksmanship, specifically trigger skills.
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Old May 9, 2018, 10:10 AM   #24
Don Fischer
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Originally Posted by TXAZ View Post
Thanks RR99.


It seems like I have the vertical / elevation under control.

So the question is what causes the left to right difference?

While 1" at 100 yards is good, that multiplies out 20-100 times the error at 1000-1800 yards, due to other effects that come in to play at distance.
(We were shooting a mile this weekend, and some moderate wind and was slinging 6.5CM up to 300WM +/- 5 feet.

That's where I want to become proficient. So I'd really like to understand what may be causing the linear error.

ANY feedback would be sincerely appreciated.
No bigger than that is, Probably you! If not I'd think you could do that everyday, probably you don't.The weak linc in shooting is the shooter!
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Old May 9, 2018, 12:15 PM   #25
mulespurs
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once upon a time

I had a rifle that would string groups sideways. It was more pronounced with 10 shot groups.

The problem was that my stock was touching on one side of the barrel and not the other. I glassbedded the action and free floated the barrel and that flat fixed it forever as far as I know.
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