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Old February 5, 2019, 09:39 PM   #1
chemcal
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Trigger Pull Modifications

What is done to lower trigger pull of Sigs and CZs?
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Old February 5, 2019, 10:18 PM   #2
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Old February 5, 2019, 10:53 PM   #3
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Before you go full Cajun, GrayGuns, etc, you could try something as simple as a swap of the main spring.

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Old February 6, 2019, 09:27 AM   #4
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OK; will try.
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Old February 23, 2019, 08:43 PM   #5
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been shooting a sig p229 with a 17 lb hammer spring; no FTF but I may go to 18 lbs to feel better about reliability. Opinions please.
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Old February 24, 2019, 08:49 AM   #6
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Before you do anything, Id suggest working with the gun in practice/dryfire daily and shooting as often as possible. This is especially so, if you arent a DA/DAO shooter. DA autos make this type of practice very easy too.

Except in rare instances, I think the issue here, and with many things, isnt with the gun, but with the shooter.

Learn to shoot DA/DAO, and you will become a better shooter, and all around, not just with handguns, and youll save a boatload of money in unnecessary crutch fixes/trigger jobs.
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Old February 24, 2019, 12:33 PM   #7
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Bruce Gray and quite a few other SIG gurus suggest going no lighter than a 19 lb hammer spring on a P229. That is what I have in both my P229s. I have never had a light primer striker with either.

I have heard of individuals going with lighter P229 mainsprings who have claimed 100% reliability so you might consider doing so. But you would need to test it extensively before relying on it for self-defense. And keep in mind that like all springs, hammer springs do weaken over time. So what might be 100% reliable today might not be so in a year or two.

SIGs like most "combat" pistols are relatively over-sprung wrt hammer springs so as to insure reliability with all types of ammunition over time even in the absence of regular maintenance, so you can usually get away with reducing the mainspring power some. Doing so will have an effect mostly on the DA trigger pull, but because the P229, like most commercial pistols has positive sear engagement angles for safety, the reduced power mainspring will reduce the SA trigger pull weight some.
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Old February 24, 2019, 12:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pblanc View Post
Bruce Gray and quite a few other SIG gurus suggest going no lighter than a 19 lb hammer spring on a P229. That is what I have in both my P229s. I have never had a light primer striker with either.

I have heard of individuals going with lighter P229 mainsprings who have claimed 100% reliability so you might consider doing so. But you would need to test it extensively before relying on it for self-defense. And keep in mind that like all springs, hammer springs do weaken over time. So what might be 100% reliable today might not be so in a year or two.

SIGs like most "combat" pistols are relatively over-sprung wrt hammer springs so as to insure reliability with all types of ammunition over time even in the absence of regular maintenance, so you can usually get away with reducing the mainspring power some. Doing so will have an effect mostly on the DA trigger pull, but because the P229, like most commercial pistols has positive sear engagement angles for safety, the reduced power mainspring will reduce the SA trigger pull weight some.
Bruce Gray's master spring set for the P series pistols, which you can buy on his website, includes a 17 lb hammer spring. I've been using it for a bit and have had no issues. The same kit also includes a lighter firing pin spring so there's that to consider as well. Like you say over time as the springs weaken you could get light strikes. The hardness of primers of the different ammunition you use also plays a role.

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Old February 24, 2019, 01:08 PM   #9
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I meant to say that Bruce Gray recommends going no lighter than 19 lbs on a P229 used for carry or other self-defense purpose. He also recommends going no lower than 4.5 lbs for the SA trigger pull weight on an SD pistol.

I have seen posts from individuals who have set up various gizmos to precisely measure spring strength who have claimed that there is significant variation in strength even between springs that are claimed to be of exactly the same power.

I suspect that many would be OK with an 18 lb mainspring in a carry pistol so long as the owner thoroughly vetted that spring for reliability, but that might vary pistol to pistol. I personally would not consider a 17 lb spring for any P229 pistol intended for self-defense, but to each his own.

Here is a thread that may be of interest in which a quite knowledgeable individual tested the trigger pull weights on a DA/SA SIG P229 with 17, 18, and 19 lb Wolff mainsprings, and a 17 lb Grayguns mainspring. Note that the Grayguns spring actually tested one pound lighter than the 17 lb Wolff spring and one pound lighter than its rating. Also, this P229 had been modified with polishing of the internals and "fitting of the sear to the hammer", so it had essentially undergone a trigger job, although I don't believe the sear engagement angles were altered. A stock SIG P229 probably would have shown somewhat greater DA and SA trigger pull weights:

http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-gunsmit...-p-series.html

Last edited by pblanc; February 24, 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old February 24, 2019, 01:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pblanc View Post
I meant to say that Bruce Gray recommends going no lighter than 19 lbs on a P229 used for carry or other self-defense purpose. He also recommends going no lower than 4.5 lbs for the SA trigger pull weight on an SD pistol.

I have seen posts from individuals who have set up various gizmos to precisely measure spring strength who have claimed that there is significant variation in strength even between springs that are claimed to be off exactly the same power.

I suspect that many would be OK with an 18 lb mainspring in a carry pistol so long as the owner thoroughly vetted that spring for reliability, but that might vary pistol to pistol. I personally would not consider a 17 lb spring for any P229 pistol intended for self-defense, but to each his own.
I'm sure there is variation between springs.

I don't carry it for defense, though to be honest I'm not looking for validation in terms of if others approve or disprove certain weights. Just sharing a data point.

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Old February 24, 2019, 01:44 PM   #11
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"...feel better about reliability..." One or 2 pounds won't make any difference.
You may want to talk to these guys. They do a CCW trigger and/or a competition trigger for a bit under $300(lotta hand work).
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Old February 24, 2019, 03:24 PM   #12
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TunnelRat do you have an opinion about an 18 lb spring in a p229 for carry?
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Old February 24, 2019, 04:02 PM   #13
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TunnelRat do you have an opinion about an 18 lb spring in a p229 for carry?
We all have opinions. The question is does my opinion matter for you. I won't be in your gun fight in the very unlikely chance you end up in one, and if you invite me I'll politely decline. I will give my views, but please take into account the above because in the end it's a call you have to make (though I do understand asking for experience to better make decisions).

Any time you change spring weights you're taking a gamble. You're trading potential reliability for ease of shooting. This is one sort of hypocrisy I always found about DA firearms and the people that carry them, and this includes myself. The notion is that the extra weight of the trigger pull and uncocked nature of the pistol give you additional safety. Yet me and many others here then take those pistols and change the mainsprings, and other springs as well, to reduce that trigger weight and make the DA easier to shoot. You'll often hear arguments that the DA could be lighter from the factory anyway and the only reason it is heavy is because of lawyers or overcautious engineers. And maybe that's true. But at some point for me personally I started to realize that if the pistol was safe with an 8 lb. DA as opposed to 10 lb., then maybe it's safe at the 6 lb. striker fired "safe action" out there as well. And with those I don't have to change springs outside of factory specifications to achieve the trigger pull weight I'm looking for. My goal isn't to "convert" you, but give food for thought.

If you do decide to swap springs, my advice is to try a number of options. You should be able to order springs from Wolff or similar, often in a pack that spans a number of weights. Try a 19, 18, 17 lb., whatever you want really (it's easy enough to change). Examine the trigger pull both with a gauge and for yourself by doing some drills with the different springs. Try both your range ammo and carry ammo and look for solid indentations on the primers. Compare them from the different springs. While changing the mainsprings can change the slide velocity, your likely biggest issue in going to a lighter mainspring will be the potential for light strikes. Yes you have a DA so you could hit it again, but that's not the goal. Keep in mind that springs weaken with time so when you decide on a lighter spring get multiples and consider swapping them out periodically to offset that problem of fatigue. Also keep in mind that a reduction in DA will typically result in some change in SA as well (though these should be slight). You can also play with trigger return spring weights as well, if available.

Pblanc is right that there are resources out there. Bruce Gray has recommendations as will other shooters. All that is based on their experience and that experience will vary. Gray has a lot of experience with P series pistols. My point above is simply that like we argue the weights can be changed from factory, maybe they can also be changed from the recommended changes? What is the magical threshold? I don't know.

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Last edited by TunnelRat; February 24, 2019 at 05:11 PM.
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Old February 24, 2019, 06:20 PM   #14
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My thoughts regarding DA/SA pistols, for what they are worth, is that it is not just the pull weight of the double action trigger pull of a hammer-fired DA/SA, or DAO hammer-fired pistol or DAO or double action revolver that adds an element of safety, it is the length of the trigger pull and the degree of deliberation required.

To fire the typical hammer-fired pistol in DA mode, the mainspring starts from a mostly relaxed state and has to be fully compressed through the excursion of the trigger. In order for the pull weight to not be onerous, the length of this trigger pull has to be substantial in order for the geometry of the internals to provide a significant amount of leverage.

Contrast this with most striker-fired pistols these days in which the trigger pull is only releasing a striker where the striker spring has been usually at least 50% tensioned and often nearly completely tensioned. It is possible to make the pull weight of a striker-fired pistol as heavy as the DA trigger pull of a hammer-fired pistol, but it usually remains considerably shorter. An with the striker-fired pistols that do have a relatively long trigger excursion, the initial part of the take-up often provides very little sensation of resistance.

Going with a reduced force mainspring will decrease the trigger pull weight, but not the length of the trigger pull excursion. I do feel that this longer, more deliberate trigger pull reduces the chance of a premature or accidental discharge to some extent. I do not know if this "safety factor" goes out the window in a really stressful situation.
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Old February 24, 2019, 06:24 PM   #15
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Thank you for the above.
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Old February 24, 2019, 06:31 PM   #16
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In my opinion the length of travel is a moot point. If your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be you're already in trouble. Will an extra centimeter of travel buy you enough time to realize that mistake? Maybe. I can say my own ND was with a S&W 5903. The pistol was in DA, had a manual safety, and a magazine disconnect. How then did it happen? I thought the chamber was empty. Once I made the deliberate decision to fire neither the length of travel nor the weight stopped me (and if they had been capable of stopping me then the pistol would be no use defensively). I certainly wouldn't advise holding someone at bay with your finger on the trigger. While I agree that's easier said than done under stress, I'm not convinced any of the stock striker fired pistols are hair triggers. At that point when your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be hopefully you're maintaining muzzle discipline.

I can say that the force on force I've done was with a P226 set up for UTM. I have zero memory of the trigger pull being longer or heavier than the Glocks I typically shot at the time (SIGs also have a shorter DA than a number of other brands imo, which is a feature I like). I have zero memory of the trigger pull in general. Someone could argue it didn't hinder me then, and that's an argument I'd entertain, but I'd also argue it didn't add any safety at the point where I decided to fire.

Edit: I don't want to turn this into DA versus non DA. The above post represents thoughts I've had going from striker fired "safe-action" to DA/SA and then back again.

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Last edited by TunnelRat; February 25, 2019 at 03:45 PM.
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Old February 25, 2019, 03:27 PM   #17
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The easy button for CZs is the ultralite kit from CGW, at least for the 75 series. You can do piece together a similar kit for the P-07/09. My triggers have ended up in the 6.5-7lb for DA and around 4lbs for SA. Polishing/dry firing/just general use will smooth out the pull considerably.
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Old February 25, 2019, 03:42 PM   #18
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Personally, I always swap for heavier mainspring or striker spring. I prefer reliability over a light trigger. Besides, I love DAO and revolvers.
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