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Old February 4, 2019, 03:57 AM   #26
briandg
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Yes. It is.

What is the point of a defensive round? To punch a hole in a bad guy, make him bleed, maybe break a bone or two or rip through an organ that will bleed badly. The only point of a defensive round is to disable a bad guy through injury.

Can a .380 do that? of course it can. Is it the best, or even optimal round for self defense? Of course it isn't the very best that you can get.

Can a 380 pistol with proper ammunition cause disabling wounds, and also be easy to transport and use, and be used effectively enough to hit areas that can disable a bad guy who presents a threat, given training and skill, and successfully putting rounds into a good place to cause serious wounds?

Are you tired of hearing me say 'yes'? of course it can.

most rounds can do so. Most rounds can disable a bad guy, but when you go below this level your chances of creating a disabling wound are getting really slim.

That taurus in that round can disable a bad guy. Will it do so without fail? Gimme a break, even a round of buckshot may fail to stop a bad guy.

So, I see only a few questions. Can your daughter make effective shots in target zones with very effective 380 rounds? will that taurus reliably function and put the rounds on target? Can the best available rounds in that caliber cause serious damage, especially when three rapid strikes get into upper torso? If these answers are to the affirmative, then this weapon and caliber are adequate for the job. That's just as simple as it can get.

Now, could she move up to a 'more effective' gun, like the 9mm, 40 caliber, or 38? really, can she do it? fit a bigger gun in her purse, shoot that bigger gun well, and in light of the other obstacles of the larger gun and caliber, carry that weapon every day and night when she believes that she will need to?


there is the very most important question. Can she use a bigger gun or not? if it is going to interfere, and make carrying more difficult or shooting more difficult, well, getting a bigger and more 'appropriate' gun is a dumb decision.

A pistol of 380 or above will effectively cause a dangerous wound. Every step upward in power will come at a price in controllability, and usually, size, and difficulty with concealment.

Let her get used to the 380 and practice with it, and see if she can become proficient. Then, try her out with larger, more effective rounds, and determine if those larger and more powerful guns are as convenient to carry and easy for her to use.

IF she can handle the 380 well but the other choices are not as user friendly, there is no further debate. Let her use what works best for her, and take it on faith. There's no guarantee that shooting a 9mm or even larger round will disable a bad guy more effectively. Using a different gun that she can't shoot well, or carry properly absolutely destroys any argument for using that gun.

It is better to carry an entry level, yet still effective handgun that she is proficient with than to accept any possible downsides that come with using any other gun.

Teach her to use that thing, keep it clean and maintained, use proven ammunition, and make her learn to use it well. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what the heck she is using. A miss doesn't cause any damage. A malfunction doesn't either. And my god, if she didn't carry her 1911 because it made her purse too heavy, jeeze, I hope that her insurance is paid up.
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Old February 4, 2019, 08:12 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ruger45LC View Post
With the small 9mm's available (Glock 43, Sig 365) there really is no point to go with the anemic 380 ACP. It's good for real, real tiny pistols but those are a slight step above nothing.
Unless shooting the small 9mm is no fun. Which means no fun, no shoot, no training, no confidence, no carry. 'Anemic'..that cracks me up. I try to find the video of the guy getting hit in the shoulder with a 22 and he ended up on the ground crying, or the lady that got shot in the neck with a 45 and ewas talking to the EMTs while holding a towel to her neck...
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there is the very most important question. Can she use a bigger gun or not? if it is going to interfere, and make carrying more difficult or shooting more difficult, well, getting a bigger and more 'appropriate' gun is a dumb decision.

A pistol of 380 or above will effectively cause a dangerous wound. Every step upward in power will come at a price in controllability, and usually, size, and difficulty with concealment.
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IF she can handle the 380 well but the other choices are not as user friendly, there is no further debate. Let her use what works best for her, and take it on faith. There's no guarantee that shooting a 9mm or even larger round will disable a bad guy more effectively. Using a different gun that she can't shoot well, or carry properly absolutely destroys any argument for using that gun.

It is better to carry an entry level, yet still effective handgun that she is proficient with than to accept any possible downsides that come with using any other gun.
With thanks to Brian above.
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Old February 4, 2019, 08:52 AM   #28
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It's been said already, but I'll add my thoughts: Don't buy a gun for another person, especially handguns unless they have already fired that gun.

Take her to a range and let her test fire a few guns. Then get the one she likes best.

Almost every time I see someone buy a gun for someone else, it ends in failure of some sort. Most frequently, it's the mistaken notion that a smaller gun has lower recoil. Nothing could be further from the truth. The little guns, even in .380, can kick pretty hard.

The other failure I see is when someone is old enough to have arthritis and either doesn't have the hand strength to rack a slide or, in some cases, can't pull the trigger, either.

Please let her handle and shoot a few guns before buying one.

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Old February 4, 2019, 09:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
Unless shooting the small 9mm is no fun. Which means no fun, no shoot, no training, no confidence, no carry. 'Anemic'..that cracks me up. I try to find the video of the guy getting hit in the shoulder with a 22 and he ended up on the ground crying, or the lady that got shot in the neck with a 45 and ewas talking to the EMTs while holding a towel to her neck...



With thanks to Brian above.
Couldn't agree more.
I always chuckle a bit when I hear comments like that as well, it simply shows that the person has little actual experience or first hand knowledge.

An incident I'm always reminded when hearing people assert such is the killing Trooper Coates. During a struggle he shot his assailant five times in the chest with full power 158gr SJHP 357 Magnum from near contact distance, a sixth shot shattered his assailants arm. Yet the scumbag, who said he didn't even know he was hit by the first shots, still managed to get off a shot with a tiny single-action NAA 22lr revolver from more than a car length away.....that severed the troopers aorta and killed him on the spot.
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Old February 4, 2019, 09:21 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Wag View Post
It's been said already, but I'll add my thoughts: Don't buy a gun for another person, especially handguns unless they have already fired that gun.

Take her to a range and let her test fire a few guns. Then get the one she likes best.

Almost every time I see someone buy a gun for someone else, it ends in failure of some sort. Most frequently, it's the mistaken notion that a smaller gun has lower recoil. Nothing could be further from the truth. The little guns, even in .380, can kick pretty hard.

The other failure I see is when someone is old enough to have arthritis and either doesn't have the hand strength to rack a slide or, in some cases, can't pull the trigger, either.

Please let her handle and shoot a few guns before buying one.

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Could not agree more with this!
I've seen it more times than I could even count.

Same for what you said about 'little guns'.......HUGE MISTAKE.

I've mentioned before here that I've become a huge fan and advocate for the 380 Shield EZ.
And this coming off over a decade of hating on S&W due a number of issues I've had with them.
But they knocked it out of the park with the darn thing.
And a major reason is its size, it's just right. It's not a full size pistol but it's big enough for ANY adult to grip properly, control, and manipulate. Add in the stupid soft recoil, and easy to operate nature and it a home run! I'm still reliability 'testing' with the two I bought but it's pretty much already taken over as my number one 'introduction to pistols' firearm. And everyone that's tried it loves it, even the big tuff guy "45 or nothing" types.

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Old February 4, 2019, 09:55 AM   #31
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I've mentioned before here that I've become a huge fan and advocate for the 380 Shield EZ.
I'm intrigued by this gun, 380EZ..wish it was a little smaller. This and the Browning Black label(and Glock 25..but can't find one)...'almost' full sized but .380....Shield just a little too big for me to easily carry...G42 about the biggest I can easily carry but big fan of the 'anemic' .380(sarcasm intended)...
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:45 AM   #32
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^^^^
You should check out the Sig P230 or 232. It's a small "full size" pistol for the .380. Best looking, best shooting, reliable! Very thin, but for medium hands a full size grip.
With megar Bersa mags, I'm carrying 8 rounds + 1 for total of nine rounds.
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:48 AM   #33
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A decent loading of .380 is a good round for self defense. Is 9x19 better? Yes, but that doesn't make .380 ineffective. The smaller round has the advantage of allowing smaller pistols to be designed around it, truly pocket sized. Carry and concealment is different for a woman, something I have been made aware of being married for 35 years and having two grown daughters. They very often need/want the smaller pistol for better concealment in clothes that they consider stylish and attractive. OP, your daughter has to be comfortable carrying AND firing this pistol before you buy. Only she can decide what is comfortable for her in her circumstances.
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Old February 4, 2019, 11:24 AM   #34
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Although I no longer own one, the Beretta 84 series, although bigger than the micro plastic guns, is a sweet shooting machine I had a Sig 230 for awhile, as well as a Beretta 85, all in .380. I kept my Interarms Walther PPK/S .380... slick, accurate and reliable.
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Old February 4, 2019, 11:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Could not agree more with this!
I've seen it more times than I could even count.

Same for what you said about 'little guns'.......HUGE MISTAKE.

I've mentioned before here that I've become a huge fan and advocate for the 380 Shield EZ.
And this coming off over a decade of hating on S&W due a number of issues I've had with them.
But they knocked it out of the park with the darn thing.
And a major reason is its size, it's just right. It's not a full size pistol but it's big enough for ANY adult to grip properly, control, and manipulate. Add in the stupid soft recoil, and easy to operate nature and it a home run! I'm still reliability 'testing' with the two I bought but it's pretty much already taken over as my number one 'introduction to pistols' firearm. And everyone that's tried it loves it, even the big tuff guy "45 or nothing" types.
No, a small gun is in NO WAY a Huge mistake. That is BS. It is a huge mistake if that person is not going to train in a very diligent manner. I have been shooting pocket guns religiously for 10 years and can handle one very well. And they can be lightening fast to the draw and to center mass, and even with a moving target. It is all about what you put into it. And the 380 has come a long way. Some of these rounds are nasty.
They are not hard to handle if you train on a regular basis and on some of the smallest, recoil is very acceptable. Some Pocket guns feel like you are almost shooting 32cal.
Any gun is a huge mistake if you do not train, and invest in the time and ammo. Do not under estimate the Pocket gun. You could be making a HUGE mistake.
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Old February 4, 2019, 12:56 PM   #36
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Willy, I agree with you totally. I don't force a gun on anyone. My daughter is taking the required classes at 43 years of age because she wants to not because I came up with the idea. I told her I would buy her a gun of her choice as long as she does a few things before EVER carrying concealed for PP. There are good training classes (better than the State sponsored stuff) for PP CC. They include anger management, proper loading, unloading of both semi autos and revolvers, defensive stances and point shooting for center of mass, also included is point vs aim shooting, live fire at a range, center of mass practice and yes a discussion on could your really shoot someone. I like that cause if you couldn't, your weapon could easily end up being used against you. She has shot 22, 380, 38 spc, 40 s&w, and a 45. Likes the 380 best so that is why I am buying her a 380. Of her choice.
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Old February 4, 2019, 02:21 PM   #37
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Another fan of the Beretta 84's. I own an 84B and never feel under gunned with 14 rounds of 380 XTP's on my hip. JG Sales has a good price on surplus Beretta 84's.
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Old February 4, 2019, 02:24 PM   #38
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I do not bet my life on 380 and I would not want my wife or child to either.
A very few 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18'' which is a desirable standard.
IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm.
"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.
My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
Sticking with two small pistols for comparison:
Ruger LCP: Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps / 141# KE
Ruger LCP: Ranger T 95 gr. 876 fps / 162# KE
Kahr PM9: Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Those 9mm loads generate more than double the KE of the 380 loads.
Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".
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Old February 4, 2019, 02:25 PM   #39
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There are good training classes (better than the State sponsored stuff) for PP CC. They include anger management, proper loading, unloading of both semi autos and revolvers, defensive stances and point shooting for center of mass, also included is point vs aim shooting, live fire at a range, center of mass practice and yes a discussion on could your really shoot someone.
Don’t want to derail this discussion but jiminy christmas, the ‘state sponsored’ classes should look like this. My ‘state approved’ CCW class was an incredible waste of time.
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Old February 4, 2019, 02:36 PM   #40
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My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
I agree but the other part of that is shooting it and often to be comfy and well trained with it. A LC9/Glock 43 size for me, hurts to shoot...so if I owned one, I wouldn’t shoot it. No shoot, not comfy, not carry. Not gonna choose a gun based on the activity that is the least likely, by a LOT. IMHO. BUT, in testing and in real world results, .380, with proper ammo, is very effective. On par with many 9mm, btw.
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Old February 4, 2019, 02:40 PM   #41
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The figures used to defend "9MM or nothing" are arbitrarily picked. Why 380 ft lbs of energy? Why not 500? Why not 800? It basically takes the conclusion (9MM) and builds the argument to it.

Can you put shots on target with a "reasonable" round? Good enough

Define reasonable how you wish.

The P230 and P232 are beautiful guns. Because they are direct blow back it totally defeats the purpose of going down to the .380 for recoil reasons. They generate far more perceived recoil than any gun that heavy in .380 has an excuse for other than an antiquated design.
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Old February 4, 2019, 03:26 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Schlitz 45 View Post
I saw James Bond shoot down a helicopter with one-it’s all about bullet placement.
Bond's PPK was a .32. Else your evidence woulda been ireffutable.
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:05 PM   #43
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I do not bet my life on 380 and I would not want my wife or child to either.
A very few 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18'' which is a desirable standard.
IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm.
"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.
My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
Sticking with two small pistols for comparison:
Ruger LCP: Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps / 141# KE
Ruger LCP: Ranger T 95 gr. 876 fps / 162# KE
Kahr PM9: Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Those 9mm loads generate more than double the KE of the 380 loads.
Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".
hell, if that's the case get your petite daughter a short barreled .44 mag loaded with mid powered magnums. BTW, how far into the human body do you have to go to reach the heart? its about 3-4"; the brain is even less. muzzle energy is nice and all but hardly a good measure of a bullets effectiveness on a criminal.
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:08 PM   #44
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They generate far more perceived recoil than any gun that heavy in .380 has an excuse for other than an antiquated design.
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Utter nonsense. Mine has recoil like a .22!
typical 7 yard group at medium pace.
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:08 PM   #45
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Bond shot down the helicopter with an Armalite AR-& .22 rifle......
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:09 PM   #46
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Don’t want to derail this discussion but jiminy christmas, the ‘state sponsored’ classes should look like this. My ‘state approved’ CCW class was an incredible waste of time.
what other right would you prefer have additional hurdles to overcome, voting maybe? gotta have a job, own property and be literate....
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:10 PM   #47
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Bond shot down the helicopter with an Armalite AR-& .22 rifle......
I thought it was a .25 caliber, as stated in the movie. I know what the gun really was, but they said .25
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:24 PM   #48
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Utter nonsense. Mine has recoil like a .22!
Than there was something wrong with the two I have owned. Nice guns for certain, as accurate as I had reason to expect, but light on recoil? No...

Mine were both P232 but it should not have made a difference.
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:54 PM   #49
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what other right would you prefer have additional hurdles to overcome, voting maybe? gotta have a job, own property and be literate....
Guess that noise is the point zooming over her head..my point is that the state sponsored CCW course I had was poor, and it would be nice if it was better, was my point. I learned nothing other than ’join the NRA’ and an hour of why the shooters/insurance/lawyer was a great idea. Nothing about government or requirements or anything like that.
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Old February 4, 2019, 04:54 PM   #50
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.380 is a good defensive round because it's easy to control and usually packed inside of a handgun small enough to carry. That means you'll actually have it on you.
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